Spiritual and i/p

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Henry, just pulled up Jason McCoy's website to get his email so I could coordinate something. Low and behold there was a picture of you and Jason having a beer. I have had the pleasure of training with Jason and being his friend for the past year. He is leaving for Okinawa this week.

Kevin

Was this photo at the Doshu presentation ? - can you give me the link please.
Are you with the USAF in Germany ? I taught a lot of German Luftwaffe and American guys at Holloman AFB in New Mexico - If by chance you meet any, please ask them to email me.

Regards

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido
http://britishaikidoboard.blogspot.com/

http://aikidoforlife.com/

It was one of the photos on his slide how on his home page. Says it was taken in Cardiff in 2010.

I'm Army in Germany. I'll certainly pass along if I run into anyone. I spend most of my time here in combatives and BJJ these days so don't run into too many Aikido people around here. I do get out occasionally though.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: http://aikidoforlife.com/ It was one of the photos on his slide how on his home page. Says it was taken in Cardiff in 2010.

Kevin

Thank you for the link. The photo was taken after the evening meal and the Doshu presentations to Haydn Foster - Derek Eastman and myself - I am the handsome one on the right.

I did like the photo of the practice on White Sands - when I was in NM we would often go there to train.

Please pass on my kind regards to Jason.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido
http://britishaikidoboard.blogspot.com/

Will do, I am having dinner with him Friday night.

David Soroko wrote: Indeed. Noro Masamichi at least had the decency to change the name of the thing he ended up doing.

Hi David,
Regarding Noro Sensei , prior to his car accident he was a tremendous aikidoka.I saw him in Glasgow along with Tamura Sensei.He was brilliant.Last time I met him was at San Diego Aikikai where he visited Chiba Sensei.He is a very pleasant man. His Ki no Michi is very elegant.His students movements are smooth , graceful and dance like.Check out some of Noro Senseis work prior to the accident, it is amazing.He reminds me of a Sufi/Dervish dancer, big circular movements , highlighted by his white hakama.Cheers, Joe

This is very nice and elegant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hOfWVn0Zu0

This 1960s video with Noro Sensei on the beach is more like the man I remember. The techniques get better towards the end of the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv0Fx...eature=related

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido
http://britishaikidoboard.blogspot.com/

I didn't realise he spent time in Iwama and I think it shows.

Christopher Li wrote: More about "dismissing"... If you've read the "Profiles of the Founder" post you'll see my basic thinking on this point: That's not the same, IMO, as "dismissing" all of Ueshiba's students. Best, Chris

I had not read or seen this post before. It does clarify your position and basic thinking on the subject.

And I see more clearly how and why you and I seem to be clashing.

And you are correct, in your post "profiles of the founder" it comes across as a point of discussion whether the students are still in line with the teachings of the founder or drifting away.
But that is not always how you put it in response to an entry by me (or for that matter in responses to others).

Tom

Dan Harden wrote: As I have told you before some of your writing interested me from way back. Honestly I didn't see it in your movements, but hands on is more definitive and clear. I would like to see how you interpreted the spiritual aspects into your aikido-particularly where it involves IP or not. I have some of my own thoughts on it- and can demonstrate it clearly- that I rarely discuss on the net though. Secondly, from much experience... I have seen people form friendships or at least establish clarity, once they meet. It tends to get rid of the wierd interactions you see on the net. Personal meet ups are the best way to get to know people. Dan

Hi Dan.
Don't agree 5 mins hands on is worth anything. Don't agree friendships come from meeting up either. Friendships come from sharing something in common, similar views.

You seem quite certain and clear and able on your route already and have made that clear to me as I am on mine. So there seems no reason for us two to meet.

News to me your interested in the spiritual and my approach particularly. Maybe you can explain via p/m.

Peace.G.

Graham Christian wrote: Hi Dan. Don't agree 5 mins hands on is worth anything. Don't agree friendships come from meeting up either. Friendships come from sharing something in common, similar views. You seem quite certain and clear and able on your route already and have made that clear to me as I am on mine. So there seems no reason for us two to meet. News to me your interested in the spiritual and my approach particularly. Maybe you can explain via p/m. Peace.G.

Hehhhhh!

I thought you were about to step up, Graham! He's coming to you and buying dinner!

I remember Dan's saying he found your writings very interesting a long time ago.

Dan's a good guy, Graham. I went all the way up the East Coast to see him. And here he is coming to your town and you won't meet him?

Well, if you wouldn't meet Shioda....

But you did say earlier that it was necessary to step up. What happened?

David

Don't think you have any similar reality to me as to what stepping up to the plate means.

When you can step up to my plate, we'll see eye to eye. These modern stepping up to the plate attitude is so fake.

Peace G.

Dan Harden wrote: Hello Tom I have enjoyed our exchange so far. Thank you. Chris has never pressed that I am the only one, he is in fact hosting and training with several. On the other hand Chris has some rather unique and extensive experience training with an incredible list of Japanese Shihan. I must say that I for one would be delighted to feel any Japanese shihan who's got it in any full measure and teaches it. I've ever felt it, seen it or read anything in writing. I think its actually a bogus claim. and I am DYING to be proven wrong. That meaning, I truly want to be wrong and get to discuss it, watch them move, see them teach, and feel their students with power. All that said. I would add that of all the teachers from all over the world I have taught..none... meaning -not one- has been able to tell me of a single teacher who has it and is teaching it. You keep talking of a logical argument. Okay. These men who have spent decades training with a host of Japanese Shihan have now felt me and others. They are now equipped to make comparisons that you are not. And they agree with Chris. Why? Who do you know that you would say qualifies? Who are their students who have power? Where can I meet them? Thank you that would be a great help. And thanks for not letting things turn ugly. Dan

Hello Dan,
Good to hear from you.

Please keep in mind that the argument of logical reasoning has everything to do with the way a statement is presented and has as such nothing to do with the question whether something is true or not or even if we agree or not.

I agree that I cannot make any comparison between you and other teachers. But you and your students have not met me or many of my teachers. Therefore you cannot make a comparison either or come to the conclusion that none of the teachers that I have trained with do not have that power that you are talking about.

Which brings me to another point; there does not seem to be one clear definition of Inner Power. So how do we know that we are really talking about the same thing? I could illustrate this by naming the Aikido shihan that taught me, like Tamura sensei, but,and please correct me if I am wrong, your premise seems to be that none of the shihan really received instruction by the founder. That leaves every shihan a priori outside the building, does it not? So it does not matter who I name.

I could also try to illustrate this with a T'ai chi chuan teacher that I used to train with. He was excellent in what he did. Or my experiences with Tai ki ken, a mixture of gentle movements and powerful techniques. But is it the same Inner Power that you are talking about?

I think we might be on the same track in more then one way. I too feel that for a long time now something has been lacking in the teaching of Aikido. The reason for this may partially have to do with O Sensei's explanations. There were those that did not understand his words or did not have the patience for it. But there were also those who did understand! Or who came to an understanding in later life.

The other problem is that we tend to see Aikido as a fighting skill. And we have a very modern western approach to it; it has to be measured to prove that it is correct. I call that the hidden contest in Aikido (as Aikido holds no contests). People find ways on the mat to compete or they find a forum like this one to compete, to measure, to judge,...
The transmitted words of the founder show that he was teaching something that had nothing to do with competing with one another, really had nothing to do with fighting even.
It might very well be that someone has a deep understanding of the teachings of the founders and yet does not practice martial arts. And that is something that you cannot "feel" by doing a technique.

Where we also might differ in opinion is that I feel that the Aikido of Aikikai is not wrong, but rather incomplete. In my opinion your lessons may be more interesting for those who already have an understanding of the kihon waza of Aikido. How would they otherwise see what is making Aikikai Aikido incomplete?

To end with a question. Do you feel that your teachings represents the teachings of the founder of Aikido?
Chris mentioned in his blog the problem of drift.
In another post on the same blog he is talking about the gogyo and how this was part of the teachings of the founder. But I saw on youtube the way you explained 5 ways to approach a technique and noticed that you did not use the gogyo, but the godai.
Would you call that creativity or drift?

Thanks for being open to my questions and remarks.

Best wishes,
Tom

.

Tom Verhoeven wrote: In another post on the same blog he is talking about the gogyo and how this was part of the teachings of the founder. But I saw on youtube the way you explained 5 ways to approach a technique and noticed that you did not use the gogyo, but the godai.

Hello Tom,

I'm a little confused about the above statement. It seems to imply there is a youtube video of Dan. If so, could you provide us with the link? Thank you.
Best,

Ernesto

Tom Verhoeven wrote: The other problem is that we tend to see Aikido as a fighting skill. And we have a very modern western approach to it; it has to be measured to prove that it is correct. I call that the hidden contest in Aikido (as Aikido holds no contests). People find ways on the mat to compete or they find a forum like this one to compete, to measure, to judge,... The transmitted words of the founder show that he was teaching something that had nothing to do with competing with one another, really had nothing to do with fighting even.

I would suggest that you do a bit more research into what Morihei Ueshiba thought about "competition". I think you will be surprised at what he really meant. Peter Goldsbury touched on that subject in a post here on Aikiweb ... or maybe it was in one of his TIE articles. From what I remember, to suggest that Ueshiba discounted all competition is wrong. If I recall correctly, Ueshiba discounted the kind of sport competition where there is an actual winner and loser. For example, Olympic Judo. I do not believe Ueshiba discounted peer competition within a dojo to make oneself better. I'm sure there are other definitions of competition that Ueshiba allowed and some that he did not.

Tom Verhoeven wrote: It might very well be that someone has a deep understanding of the teachings of the founders and yet does not practice martial arts. And that is something that you cannot "feel" by doing a technique. Thanks for being open to my questions and remarks. Best wishes, Tom

I would disagree with this for the aiki arts. If we look at a brief glimpse of Ueshiba:

1. Tenryu could not budge him, push him over, move him, or get the better of Ueshiba because ... Ueshiba knew the secret of aiki. No mention of spirituality.

2. Shioda was tested and passed without mention of spirituality. It was entirely martial.

3. Ueshiba, himself, stated that aiki was not a religion but that aiki made religion better.

4. Ueshiba, himself, stated that one did not have to follow in his spiritual footsteps. He not only allowed but encouraged others to keep to their own spiritual path.

5. Horikawa and Sagawa were Ueshiba's peers and martially, they all did similar things. This martial skill can be directly traced back to Takeda and aiki. Aiki, the martial body changing method. No spirituality.

6. Ueshiba, himself, stated that he is not a religious man, but a man of budo.

7. Nearly every single martial artist who came into contact with Ueshiba, Horikawa, Sagawa, Takeda, all knew (not thought, not believed, did not quibble) that they had encountered something beyond (some said incomprehensible) all their 10, 20, 30 years of training in countless other martial arts including kendo, judo, jujutsu, karate, sumo, boxing. These highly skiled, experienced martial artists *heard* about the aiki greats, but it wasn't until they actually, physically experienced training with them did they find out how utterly wrong their opinions were. What was it that Ueshiba said of Takeda ... He opened my eyes to true budo.

So, when talking about the aiki arts ... no amount of "deep understanding" can be complete without the martial context. It Has To Be Felt. IHTBF. Not technique. Never technique. But, that aspect of the aiki arts ... which is "aiki" ... the aiki as handed down by Takeda must be there or there really is no "deep understanding".

100 years of studying Omoto kyo is not aikido. 100 years of being a devout christian is not aikido. 100 years of being Buddha is not aikido. While 100 years of spirituality may be its own reward, it should never be confused as synonymous with aikido. No aiki ... no aikido. Ueshiba said pick your religion, pick your spirituality, but this is budo, the way of aiki. And, if you read Chris Li's blogs, you begin to understand that Ueshiba talked incessantly about old, known martial training methods, sayings, ideas, etc. He just hid them inside his spiritual ideology. Martial training methods that have a spiritual component hidden inside spiritual ideology. Aiki completes religion/spirituality. And that is where one will find the deeper understanding.

All IMO anyway,
Mark

Spiritual......I/P.......

I would say that the origins of I/P are no doubt spiritual. Unfortunately the use was a misuse and merely used for tricks within the limited framework of combat. Thus it would lead to having an edge. Thus it would lead to secrecy and secret techniques. Alas such is the way of human behaviour.

Spiritual is and always will be the source. To understand Ueshiba and what he did for me is very hard yet very simple. It's summed up in one word and that is not kojiki, it is Kannagara.

Understand the true concept of that and you will understand a lot of what Ueshiba said and meant.

Peace.G.

Graham Christian wrote: Spiritual......I/P....... I would say that the origins of I/P are no doubt spiritual.

Chicken, meet egg.

Charles David Henderson wrote: Chicken, meet egg.

Ha, ha. Not quite. More effect meet cause.

Peace.G.

Graham Christian wrote: Spiritual......I/P....... I would say that the origins of I/P are no doubt spiritual. Unfortunately the use was a misuse and merely used for tricks within the limited framework of combat. Thus it would lead to having an edge. Thus it would lead to secrecy and secret techniques. Alas such is the way of human behaviour. Spiritual is and always will be the source. To understand Ueshiba and what he did for me is very hard yet very simple. It's summed up in one word and that is not kojiki, it is Kannagara. Understand the true concept of that and you will understand a lot of what Ueshiba said and meant. Peace.G.

Since the Kojiki is a book, and Kannagara is a concept, it doesn't surprise me that they were different.

That being said, how about giving us your take on the meaning?

Also, there are records of Ueshiba citing Kannagara as a key concept from the early 1930's - maybe earlier, how does that fit into the pre-war/post-war dichotomy that you usually insist on?

Best,

Chris

Sorry, I would like clarification on this, Graham. The following are your words, verbatim:

"Of course they can always step up to the plate and meet me and learn something they don't know."

(and then, after Mr. Harden accepted your invitation and offered you dinner)

"...there seems no reason for us two to meet."

I'm confused. Has the previous offer been rescinded? If so, why?

Brett Charvat

Christopher Li wrote: Since the Kojiki is a book, and Kannagara is a concept, it doesn't surprise me that they were different. That being said, how about giving us your take on the meaning? Also, there are records of Ueshiba citing Kannagara as a key concept from the early 1930's - maybe earlier, how does that fit into the pre-war/post-war dichotomy that you usually insist on? Best, Chris

You can cite it and then over time get to understand it more fully and understand more about other things from it. You may even see golden lights and hit enlghtening experiences. Then become certain, with conflicting mind gone. Sounds much like Ueshiba path to me.

Rather than just a concept it's a view of the universal principles of life, the cosmos. The spiritual basis of all from divine source. Thus this should be inherent in all religions for it is their root from which many may stray. Thus put back into it would make them better. It contains the principle of all or even best results coming from divinity etc. So it implies we must align with such no matter who we are or what religion. Much like Aikido and the words of Ueshiba.

That's my brief outline.

Peace.G.

Graham Christian wrote: You can cite it and then over time get to understand it more fully and understand more about other things from it. You may even see golden lights and hit enlghtening experiences. Then become certain, with conflicting mind gone. Sounds much like Ueshiba path to me. Rather than just a concept it's a view of the universal principles of life, the cosmos. The spiritual basis of all from divine source. Thus this should be inherent in all religions for it is their root from which many may stray. Thus put back into it would make them better. It contains the principle of all or even best results coming from divinity etc. So it implies we must align with such no matter who we are or what religion. Much like Aikido and the words of Ueshiba. That's my brief outline. Peace.G.

"Much like" - but how do you connect that to what Ueshiba actually said?

Also, what about the second half of the question - the pre-war/post-war dichotomy?

Best,

Chris

Graham Christian wrote: You can cite it and then over time get to understand it more fully and understand more about other things from it. You may even see golden lights and hit enlghtening experiences. Then become certain, with conflicting mind gone. Sounds much like Ueshiba path to me. Rather than just a concept it's a view of the universal principles of life, the cosmos. The spiritual basis of all from divine source. Thus this should be inherent in all religions for it is their root from which many may stray. Thus put back into it would make them better. It contains the principle of all or even best results coming from divinity etc. So it implies we must align with such no matter who we are or what religion. Much like Aikido and the words of Ueshiba. That's my brief outline. Peace.G.

Or... it's a function of our shared biology. We experience the "spiritual" the same because we are built the same.

Graham Christian wrote: effect meet cause. Peace.G.

aaahhh the ball is still in play.... the Artful Dodger is on the clock

IP/IS are just tricks....really........

Gary