Does aikido train the mind?

For you women, Colleen especially, who don't know what Meniere's is or haven't been exposed to it's fear.

British Medical Journal. Best description of what it is and its by products.

Torture of continued physical and hearing noised for thirty years is like being tortured by communists in a prison camp with sound. Don't try it, I have enough disability for all of us.

Please refrain from personal comments about something you know nothing about Colleen. Aikido should be enough to learn to train your mind.

Unless you want to live with the flu and very annoying sounds in your head twentyfour hours a day, for years, and years...

Sorry, had to do it.

Some people just have to be control freaks, and that is the last thing I respond to.

Yeah, the mind is a tricky subject for those who have not traveled to places where they have to use pure will power to greet each day.

Aikido helps too.

Just don't try to poke me in the throat like Terry Dobson's Sensei in Jun's story ... I keep on guard.

Old sailors know to keep on hand for the ship, and one hand to protect yourself? ( Or was that to work? It applys to protection too.)

Originally posted by LOEP [b] You're welcome! Budo history is a serious hobby of mine and I do tend to mouth off at any given opportunity.

Hi Chuck! I can't believe I missed this post! I don't no how it happened but I never noticed 'til today that you had posted an answer to my question! Thank you. Oh, and please talk as much as you want to me about it, it's really interesting.

What part of the world are you in ... maybe I can make some referrals.

I'm in New Brunswick. If you can make any referrals I'd be interested. Although I probably can't get into anything else right now.

Do/Michi = Path, Way (also used to denote some streets and lanes in Japan). Jutsu = Art, science, technique. Fact of the matter is that there's NOT much difference, and your observation is pretty much spot on. Some folks LIKE the idea that their DO art is vastly superior and oh-so enlightened, unlike those nasty jutsu arts. And some jutsu folks really, really want their arts to be 'combat-effective' and nothing at all like those namby-pamby DO arts ... Both are ignoring the fact that DO terms were in use by guys doing sword and body stuff way before Meiji and JUTSU has been used to identify arts that are focussed more on the esoteric and spiritual than physical combatives ... Sigh. What it boils down to is that the old guys in Japan used DO and JUTSU pretty interchangeably much of the time. Some instances, one or the other predominated, but mostly, they were (and are) considered by martial scholars and historians to be complementary facets rather than antagonistic opposites. Lots of the alleged schism can be traced to the late D. Draeger and his excellent and groundbreaking books on budo. He tried hard to explain things to a western audience, and as a result couched some things in western terms. That's been taken as gospel by some and rather than do as _I_ think Draeger intended and explore more deeply, they are content to say THIS is DO, a morally superior art that has evolved from the barbaric JUTSU arts (or this JUTSU art is superior because it's 'authentic' and 'combat-tested' ...) It's all pretty much semantic hog, er, whitewash. I like the idea that what you do in the dojo is JUTSU (technical training, practice, etc) but what you take from the dojo into your life is DO ...

I like your explanation, it makes a lot of sense. Thank you very much for all the information you've given me.

Originally posted by Don_Modesto [b] I agree with Mr. Ashby about Massad Ayoob, excellent. See also, http://www.rmcat.com/ This is Peyton Quinn's site. He is making a career of precisely this issue (at $800 for a weekend seminar). His books* are well worth reading. He has a very critical of martial arts with an insider's knowledge of several (he was a yudansh under the late Toyoda.) His writing style is rough and some may need to work through his "slob appeal" approach, but there are gems in the works.

Well, I took a look at this sight and I'm sure his seminars can be effective but it's definitely not for me. Just thinking about spending a weekend dealing with that kind of fear is scary.
I will check out the books that you and Jim recommended, thanks guys.

For you women, Colleen especially, who don't know what Meniere's is or haven't been exposed to it's fear. .....Please refrain from personal comments about something you know nothing about Colleen. Aikido should be enough to learn to train your mind.

Alright Bruce, I think that's just about enough. You've done the nearly impossible and actually offended me. In case you've missed it in previous posts, Colleen is a doctor. She has been the most patient person on this forum in dealing with you and has never shown anything but concern for your medical condition. As far as I can tell the only thing she did "wrong" was to tell you to seek other opinions. Gee, sounds like pretty good advice to me. If you don't want to take her advice that's fine. Just say thanks but no thanks and blunder along on your merry way. Don't come onto this PUBLIC forum and tell her that her education and experience mean zilch and that she doesn't know what she's talking about. You don't have that right.

Bronson

Thanks, Bronson, but it's OK, that's how Bruce is and I should have known how to communicate with him without provoking him so much. I appreciate your (and other's) comments about my degree... but we all can make mistakes, and mine at least was in misjudging how to talk with Bruce.

I have him on my ignore list, and he may have me on his, but there are some TREATABLE infections that can cause recurring HIGH frequency hearing loss (Meniere's by contrast is usually LOW frequency) and vertigo, and be associated with confusion, memory loss, and paranoia and other psychotic features not associated usuaslly associated with Meniere's. Brain tumors might also cause this constellation. The decision is Bruce's on second opinions.

The organism that causes the treatable Meniere's mimic might be overlooked by doctors other than ID or third-world medicine docs as we rarely see it in the US. I just told a patient last week that his 'incurable' bone disease that has left him crippled and disabled is very likely to be a treatable infection seen in some of the third-world countries I've practiced in, but rarely here. And he had eight different specialists at one of the best schools in the country looking at him. We all make mistakes. Even (especially) me--but no one should take just one (or maybe even two) opinions that they have no hope. Even straight Meniere's, if only affecting one ear, has a surgical option if the medicines don't work and quality of life is too impaired.

IMHO, no, Aikido doea not train the mind, you do. It may be easier to train the mind directly rather than hope the physical training somehow transfers. I tend to want to train both directly rather than hope the knowledge learning transfers and overcome the bad habits of history. For most people, fear and anger the emotions they need to most overcome. Most have been unconsciously educated in the fear based responses of fight, flight, or freeze. Few have learned to respond with flow. Remember, where ever the head goes the body follows.

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD
Ph.D. Psychology

I would also like to refer to the book 'Aikido in daily life', only I can not remember the author. You will sertaily find that you train the mind, as long as you train aikido in that way. If you only train the techniques, obviously the mind will not be trained a lot. But if you train aikido as the whole concept you will be able to handle a situation of panic en negative stress in a more effective way.

If you are able to find the book, read it. It helped me so much to find myself, and I am sure it will help others as well...


cheers

I believe that the book recommended is Terry Dobson and Victor Miller's Aikido in Everyday Life: Giving in to Get Your Way North Atlantic Books, 1978, 1993 ISBN 1-55643-151-1 $14.95). Great book. Highly recommend.

I certainly support mental training and extending Aikido's principles beyond the Dojo.

Until again,

Lynn

That is the book indeed. Thanks for that. It is the best book I found in quite some time.

From what I've heard of people who knew Terry, he really didn't like the book after it came out...

I was given one of the original "first edition" books that Terry gave to a friend of mine. If I remember correctly, it was called something like "Giving in to Get Your Way: The Attack-tics System of Winning Your Everyday Battles" or somesuch.

-- Jun

Just a thought: The mind is undisciplined and the emotions steamroll everything, we see it every day. Our society is not rational/logical/analytically based; just look at politics, entertainment, advertising, ect...How do they manipulate you? Emotions are hardwired into us and very hard to work with.
I was in one dojo for years that actually had times set aside for working on moving the mind and understanding emotional cycles depending on stimulous. Uke had to be sincere, like any attack, because you knew these were your classmates. It was rollplaying, sure, but even if you were aware of that, it still triggered those emotional, chemical reactions when someone glared at you across the room, advanced on you menacingly, slammed you against a wall and yelled in your face or just tried to weedle you into doing something you chose not to do. In a safe environment we got to expierience waves of emotions that otherwise we'd feel for the first time during any sort of intense confrontation or attack. I was pinned to the ground once when my partner made it clear that it wasn't a game...I can't begin to tell you all what that brought up and out of me!
I think the majority of women have a harder time with such things, just because of pervasive societal conditioning, and these women have more of a mental/emotional challenge walking into martial arts training than the average male, unless they come from a background that conditioned them more outside the 'norm'.
So grab some friends and take turns tapping into those places we don't usually care to go. My old dojo moto was: "Better your friends at the dojo than some creep out there". --'Live life like an experiment!'

Why split the two? mind and body that is?

Originally posted by aiki_what Why split the two? mind and body that is?

The mind and the body are not in actually split. But, because of the way most of us were raised, we tend to think of them as two different things and at times they tend to go in two different (sometime contradictory) directions. The map inside of our heads is not the territory on which we live, but it is how we navigate it.

IMHO, Aikido can help make a better connection or unification of body and mind. But, it may be easier to state where we are instead of where we should be (implied, we aren't there yet) and consciously train both the body and the mind.

I love the reality based scenario adrenalin training mentioned. Yes, it is harder for the female psychology because of how its socialized. So it may be even more important for them to disconnect the fear/freeze triggers. But, everyone can use the desentization experience and the reality check.

Does Aikido train the mind? Not necessarily, but it can.

Until again,

Lynn

PS: I love mental training threads. Not instead of physical training, but as a power adjunct. Nothing replaces sweat, but "where ever the head goes, the body tends to follow."

Originally posted by SeiserL ...Does Aikido train the mind? Not necessarily, but it can. Until again, Lynn PS: I love mental training threads. Not instead of physical training, but as a power adjunct. Nothing replaces sweat, but "where ever the head goes, the body tends to follow."

Excellent replies Lynn!

In the Ki Society, mind and body coordination training takes up half of the formal instruction curriculum. However it is the basis for all that we do. Informally, it pervades everything we do.

Clear as mud?

Kathryn Cole wrote: I have tried to write this question about ten times now but can't seem to word it right It might be a little long but just bear with me please. I experienced fear and shock when I was attacked and just panicked and put up a rather useless struggle. I did not have any martial arts training at the time but even if I had would it have done me any good? I wonder if even when I have achieved a high level of skill(if I ever do) would it really help if I ever needed those skills? Will aikido just train my body or would it train my mind too so that I would be able to work through the fear and avoid the panic? Or would I need to train my mind in another way? Or would my body just react despite what my mind is doing? Does anyone know or have an idea?

I believe it will train the mind if you will let it. I've noticed that some instinctual reflexes have changed slightly to my advantage after training for a year.

Trains the mind as in being analytical? It depends on the individual, his/her instructor(s) and the dojo environment. Paula said that the mind is undisciplined - I agree. I would add that one has to be mindful and analytical before one can focus on ones action(s), i.e. to discipline ones mind.

Trains the mind as in mind and body coordination. Yes, if one practice long enough, one cultivates "Ki" or muscle memory. I have seen with people with 20 years and more experience in aikido, absolutely good performers but lousy teachers.

Just my 2 sen observation.

Best training

David Y

Talking about self defense... the most important thing a person can do on the street is not to behave like a victim!!! (I have been attacked 4 times).That starts with the way you walk, and that is where aikido can help.
You Kathryn wrote that you didn't have any instincts. I don't believe you. But I don't think you have enough selfasteam. That you need to train! You have to be completely sure you have as much value as any other person on this earth and have the right to live. And that no one can ever put you down emotionally or fiscally, never ever!!!

[My instincts are so screwed up as to be entirely usless. You're right about training keeping you out of trouble. One of the things I learned in karate and perhaps the most valuable lesson sensei gave me was to avoid dangerous situations.]

Kat, I know you have had a wealth of insight in response to your original question and I would like to add this small piece. Gavin De Becker wrote an wonderful book called, The Gift of Fear. I think this book could help restore your trust in your instincts. As a woman I feel instincts are often all we have to go on when trying to avoid danger. This book is practical and a great read.

I feel aikido does train the mind and help us become more aware of our surroundings, how they move around us and us them...

Great thread.

Krista

Hi Kat
You Make Your AIKIDO Training What It Is . You will get from aikido just what you put into it.
Look up the Japanese word " ZANSHIN " , ask your Sensei what it means. Then look up the word " MUSHIN " . Get a good Japanese English Dictionary. Look for the book by John Stevens
" The Art Of Peace ". Read it EVERY Day, Each time you read it you will see more. Read the book "GO REN NO SHO"
Training is a constant thing it is in your mind. Aikido is a constant struggle for the trouth. You are on the path, as are every person who has answered your post. Take what is good from your teachers, and from those who come after you" your students". O'SENSEI said we should learn even from trees; and the rocks in the stream. Discover your own trouth. Pass what you learn to others, this will give you the greatest lessons. Learn and forget. Clense the five senses MISOGI. Love People!! No one is perfect. Learn from your mistakes, and from those of others. Forgive everyone in advanse. Empty your mind so that it can be filled up with the good stuff. AIKIDO IS THE GOOD STUFF. Good Training!!!

Forget about the street altogether. You never know when an attack may come, who cares anyway. Use some intelligence and stay out of dark alleys and biker bars. As for techniques, don't worry about using it- ever, you'll only end up clinging to fear and forget about the point of Aikido. The more often you train, without self-conciousness the more these things become reflexive. When attacked, punched or kicked I am sure everyone has gotten at least one hit in, and that probably came from nessecity. With Aikido on your belt you the spectrum of what you are capable of doing will come naturally from NESSECITY when attacked. In a fight don't woory about which arm will swing at you because you can't know, feel adrenaline and for one thing you don't want to get hit, so instinctivly you will try to defend yourself, who knows, you may suprise yourself.

any replies

Trevor Wolfe wrote: any replies

Treveor,
maybe I misunderstood something but to me it looks as if you tried to hijack the post. I cannot see any connection to the mind training question.

So no other comments here.

Maybe you start Yet Another Real Life thread.

Dirk

Kathryn Cole wrote: I have tried to write this question about ten times now but can't seem to word it right It might be a little long but just bear with me please. I experienced fear and shock when I was attacked and just panicked and put up a rather useless struggle. I did not have any martial arts training at the time but even if I had would it have done me any good? I wonder if even when I have achieved a high level of skill(if I ever do) would it really help if I ever needed those skills? Will aikido just train my body or would it train my mind too so that I would be able to work through the fear and avoid the panic? Or would I need to train my mind in another way? Or would my body just react despite what my mind is doing? Does anyone know or have an idea?

Depends how attached you are in training. Umm, I'll try and explain this. You see an attack coming and often people who haven't been training long focus purely on the attack. If you like their conciousness becomes attached to the attack and then to the response to that attack. Hopefully later on in your training you've seen a punch or whatever so many times that it's just another punch and you deal with it without any thought. Then you have to take this detachment and make it a 24/7 thing.

Another way to look at it is like meditation. When you start meditating you have thoughts, as a beginner you become attached to the thoughts but as you meditate more you learn to allow them to just pass. Treat the entire technique like this, just let it pass. Think about something other than the technique every now and then while you're training. That way you're mind get's used to thinking about one thing while doing another, so if you're walking down the street thinking about one thing and you see a punch you'll be able to carry on thinking about whatever it was and deal with the punch.

I think its actually interesting to see other ideas about this topic. I chose to boost it up to keep it mainstream to coax others into it, i am not completly set in my ways i like to stay relativley grounded, but hearing a better idea than I have could be good. I am not just looking for critisism but also more efficient means of thought and perception. My threads pick up where someone else left off, on an idea I found interesting. Like it or not discussion of auto-reaction has complete bearing on mind, and attitude is important.

Hijjakkerr