what do you do from a bear hug attack?

Moderate pain is a waste of time in real fights because of the adrenalin. In a US survey 60% of people who have been attacked with knives only realised they had been attacked with a knife AFTER the event. This adrenalin cannot be replicated in the dojo. Strikes must have some physiological response; thus strikes to eyes, sternum, groin and jaw are great, but a nip is usually pretty useless (I say usually, because if you build up your fingerstrength enough you can tear off lumps of flesh or damage muscle/tendon for incapacitation). Obviously it depends on the situation (i.e. whether they are just arsing around of whether they are determined), but instead of a nip I would suggest grabbing the testicles or a finger and pulling it off, a rear head but, a reverse kick to the groin or biting a lump out of them.

Would you really want biting a lump out of the groin be the technique you rely on and train it? As a last resort mindset... maybe - but I bet (almost ) NOONE trains those to make them more effective.

Paige - the main purpose of kicking and punching is not to HURT and cause pain but to damage and incapacitate thus making the opponent unable to fight (knocking him out, damaging a leg to restrict movement etc). Arm bar incapacitates and arm. Choke is all a different matter. With choke you want to put a person to sleep so he leaves you alone

Also pain tolerance in easy training and in fight is very different. Yes in training the guy jumped off and ran. I think that in even hard sparring in training session he wouldn't do that... just cringe and finish the choke.

And James - that "choice" is not unique to Aikido... a wrestler might dump someone on their head on the concrete OR take a hold and squeeze until they give up. A BJJ'er might break someones arms and legs OR positionally dominate and girlslap them until they give up. A boxer might totally destroy someones face and knock him out cold OR give a medium punch to the stomach to let the "funmaker" know of his mistake.

What is different between Aikido and the other examples I mentioned is that in Aikido usually NOR does one train to pinch and fool around NOR does one actually train to take someone out in the sense that wrestler/judoka/bjjers/boxers/thaiboxers/mma'ers etc do.

Jorgan hit the nail on the head...again. Having wrestled, I *know* that pinching someone athletic and determined is going to piss them off. If you can't handle yourself without it, adding it to an already weak arsenal is not going to get the desired results.

Going after integuements is a good tactic when combined with other skills...but it takes hand and finger strength...if you don't train that, it probably won't have the desired affect.

And as always, if the other person is positionally dominating you, in standup or on the ground, who is going to be in the best position to use such tactics? If you start, be prepared for the opponant to continue in that vein.

Best,
Ron

Some other circumstances that might dictate what your response is could include (but not be limited to):

Are there witnesses? Would they perceive your actions as "taking it to the next level" when the other guy was "just messing around"?

Where are you? If you're still in high school and you visibly slap someone, even lightly, you're getting punished for fighting because of most schools' draconian penalties for kids who defend themselves.

If you proceed to strike someone or choke them out in front of a bunch of people, you might be getting contacted by a personal injury attorney that isn't interested in how it started, but in how his "client's life has been forever and irrevocably changed by your excessive force" or some such crap.

Sueing someone to get rich is practically the new American Dream. Watch yourselves! Witnesses aren't always neutral!

The one time that somebody actually did this to me, I responded by throwing my legs up and over my head as I felt my feet leave the ground. Nothing I'd ever practiced; it just felt like the right thing to do at the time. The result was that he went over backwards, losing his grip, and I landed on my feet (in effect completing a backflip) standing right behind his head.

In practice situations the somewhat less radical tactic of sticking one's legs out in front as if sitting seems to be effective. One can pump one's legs in time with his attempted compensations to amplify the oscillations in his body. Even a child doing this can be very hard to hold.

Jorgen Matsi wrote: Paige - the main purpose of kicking and punching is not to HURT and cause pain but to damage and incapacitate thus making the opponent unable to fight (knocking him out, damaging a leg to restrict movement etc). Arm bar incapacitates and arm. Choke is all a different matter. With choke you want to put a person to sleep so he leaves you alone

Damage and incapacitate.... hmmm those sound like fancy words for hurt.

The pinch is not meant to give the guy a blood clot. Its meant as a distraction. If the guy is choking u a pinch may be the only thing you can really pull off at the moment and it does work if they dont expect. The distraction can then allow you to "damage and incapacitate" your opponent.

Jorgen Matsi wrote: Also pain tolerance in easy training and in fight is very different. Yes in training the guy jumped off and ran. I think that in even hard sparring in training session he wouldn't do that... just cringe and finish the choke.

Pain is still felt whether you are "hard sparring" or "easily training". Trust me, i know what sparring is all about and i've seen tricks liek this work during "hard sparring". What makes them work is letting go of your manly ego long enough to try it out.

Main Entry: hurt
Part of Speech: verb 1
Definition: cause pain
Synonyms: abuse, ache, afflict, ail, be sore, be tender, belt, bite, blemish, bruise, burn, cramp, cut, cut up,damage, disable, do violence, flail, flog, harm, impair, injure, kick, lacerate, lash, maltreat, mar, maul, mess up, nip, pain, pierce, pinch, pommel, prick, punch, puncture, punish, rough up, shake up, slap, slug, smart, spank, spoil, squeeze, stab, sting, tear, throb, torment, torture, total, trouble, wax, whack, whip, wing, wound, wrack up, wring, zing

heres the link...http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=hurt

Heres another one...

Main Entry: incapacitate
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: cripple
Synonyms: clip wings, cripple, damage, disable, disarm, disenable, disqualify, hamstring, hinder, hog-tie, hurt, immobilize, lame, lay up, maim, paralyze, prostrate, queer, take out, undermine, weaken

link.....http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=incapacitate

Don't resist, it will confuse the heck out of your attacker and cause you to be dead weight throwing him off balance. Your attacker will have to change his grip on you at that point. You should be able to move a bit freer during his grip change. At that point formulate your escape!

Pain is still felt whether you are "hard sparring" or "easily training". Trust me, i know what sparring is all about and i've seen tricks liek this work during "hard sparring". What makes them work is letting go of your manly ego long enough to try it out.

I'm sorry, I'll have to trust my own experience first...I've never seen this do anything except piss off a determined opponant in 'hard sparing'. And it had nothing to do with "manly egos". Now, if I *really* want an @ss whupping in wrestling, all I had to do was pinch the guy.

Best,
Ron (got my @ss whupped good enough as it was)

Pinching certainly will work in the right timing or circumstance as a distractor. That said, I would not rely on this if I were in a position of disadvantage as I tend to think I have more important issues at hand to minimize on coming danger and therefore will use my limited time to work on something that has a more proactive outcome than pinching.

I tend to agree with Ron about just pissing someone off worse, and if you are "sparring" then it really is a cheap thing to do and you deserve whatever ear boxing or nose shove, or elbow in the corner of your jaw or chest you just earned.

Ron Tisdale wrote: I'm sorry, I'll have to trust my own experience first...I've never seen this do anything except piss off a determined opponant in 'hard sparing'. And it had nothing to do with "manly egos". Now, if I *really* want an @ss whupping in wrestling, all I had to do was pinch the guy. Best, Ron (got my @ss whupped good enough as it was)

Didnt know we were talking about wrestling ...

The only sparring that i have experience with is in shaolin kung fu where pretty much anything goes except holds, arm bars, and knee traps. I've seen people use pinching, grinding knuckles into ribs, poking, spear hands, tricks like this in order to get someone off of them during ground fighting, because they encourage u to stay on your feet. Im not saying the whole fight consists of pinching or that anyone solely relys on it. Only very rarely do u see it even happen. But when someones straddling you and trying to punch you in the face , it can be useful, and as far as i know not illegal.

This can go for real life situations as well.

Maybe this will clear things up. Again im not saying u should solely rely on pinching , im saying it can be useful if used at the right time and place.

-Paige

The only sparring that i have experience with is in shaolin kung fu where pretty much anything goes except holds, arm bars, and knee traps.

Hmm...in terms of grappling on the ground...what exactly does that leave?

My experience in kung fu was Hung Gar...no ground grappling that I remember at all. In terms of grappling: wrestling, a tiny bit of judo, some bjj with friends, nothing official. I'm excluding aikido from ground grappling experience for obvious reasons. But my conclusions are very different from yours.

Best,
Ron (perhaps I'm being naive?)

Paige Frazier wrote: But when someones straddling you and trying to punch you in the face , it can be useful, and as far as i know not illegal. -Paige

did u skip over this part of my post?

To me, it all depends on who the attacker is and what his intentions are. If you're in a training hall, practice your techniques. If you're somewhere else and don't know who's grabbed you, do WHATEVER IT TAKES. The guy's already grabbed me; why should I care if my pinching him pisses him off? He's already grabbed me; obviously our relationship is already sketchy. If all they've done is grabbed me from behind, why resort to immediately kicking the crap out of them?

I'll go along with the idea of a pinch pissing off an attacker - after you let go. If you pinch them in the correct spot and, uh, DON'T let go, they might very well be compliant and eager to please. If not, try twisting.

Any daughter of mine is gonna know how to pinch the dogcrap out of some punk kid's armpit if he gets fresh with her, but she'll also know how to toss a guy down a flight of stairs if he pulls a knife.

Guys, I promise if a pinch is what gets you home alive, I won't call you wussy for having used it. Who cares HOW you survive and get home?

For those of you experimenting with pinching your own armpit to see if it hurts, consider this:
1. You're NOT trying to twist free a bit of flesh.
2. You can't tickle yourself either.

Sorry I brought up the atemi thats all it is, its not going to take a man down to the ground but it works, maybe enough to get away, at least loosen a grip.
Its taught by the police academy in two county's here. how do I know? I train with the cops who teach there,
like was said, if you pissed someone off to the point they've grabbed you so what because you pinched them there going to get more upset I'm not concerned about there feelings.
If no one thinks this will work don't use it, no harm no foul .

pinching, head butting,thumb in the eyes,and bitting happens in school wrestling believe it or not...maybe not in your area, but it does here.

I wouldn't practice pinching as a part of my regular training though, I think you 'll run out of friends.

[quote=Andy Lucas]Sorry I brought up the atemi thats all it is, its not going to take a man down to the ground...
pinching, head butting,thumb in the eyes,and bitting happens in school wrestling believe it or not...maybe not in your area, but it does here.
QUOTE]
Pinching can be quite effective against some people. The wrestlers at my highschool would pinch the inside of the thigh if they got the chance, and we've practiced giving a little pinch just under the arm-pit on the tricept at my dojo before (against a frontal grab of the collar). Against your average person it'll make a difference, even if it turns out to be a slight one...but sometimes that's all it takes. It seems to me like it would be hard to pinch the inside of the leg from a bear-hug, but if you can do it... give'em a pinch to grow an inch!
It's a good point you make that something such as that is only part of what's going on. The rest of your body should be doing something too.
Take care,
Matt

Andy Lucas wrote: pinching, head butting,thumb in the eyes,and bitting happens in school wrestling believe it or not...maybe not in your area, but it does here.

The wrestling coach used to tell a story about how he was told, if he had to get out of a hold, to grab his opponant's testicles and squeeze. So he was in a situation where he was losing and suddenly a pair of testicles appeared. He grabbed ahold as hard as he could only to find a vice-like grip on his own which caused him to violently wriggle out of the hold. Turns out it works just as well when you squeeze your own...only...um...a bit more painfull. I recommend a different method though

Though not an aikido technique, from but from juijutsu, leg entanglement works very well when you are being picked up. Circle your leg between theirs and grapevine his which will prevent him from fully lifting you.

The bear hug is usually a step in an ongoing attack. Either someone is holding you for another attacker or they are preparing to do something more aggressive. (Throw you down, over a railing, into a van etc.) If there is no second attacker then there will be another opportunity post bear hug to subdue the assailant. Still, it's best not to get both arms pinned and lifted into the air. When I hear it described that way I imagine that I have to be pretty spaced out to end up in the position in the first place.