Banned from the dojo

Hi guys,

I haven't been on for a while. I see young Nick Simpson is being a pest and Timmy, yes you write to cleetus but no e-mails or texts for me ha. You lot should try trainning with them.

Anyway our Sensei is to teach on a course for the assocation I left to train with him. As I make 200 hundred mile round trips to train with him, it was cool to see him up in the north-east.

I was told from the senior instructor in the area that I was not able to attend this course, as the assocation running the course feels that it would create a bad atmoss if I was there.

As someone who trains with Sensei as often as possible it was very upsetting to have him teach in the area and not be there. I have spoken to Sensei and he have told me that I am still loved by all, hooray for me.

But that is not the point I wish to get on to. Do you think there is any point in banning people from the dojo.

i find this kind of politically and egotistically motivated behavior quite contrary to the ideals of aikido... but it happens all too frequently... i suggest you show up anyway and be respectful... this kind of situation should be challenged... if they love you they would not act this way...

Cheers Edwin,

But if I show up it may cause a bit of a scene and thats the last thing I want. My point is, if you ban people from the dojo what do they learn. I have in the past told people to leave the dojo for being late on the mat but only for the one class, this did not go down while and the indivdual in question has never set foot in my dojo since. But to say never come back is a big step and as you say contrary to the ideals of Aikido. Surely they should be showing me what am missing, not reinfocring the idea I was right to leave in the first place.

the scene is not the point if they are sincere in their love and respect and desire to practice... who cares who else is there??? let the senior instructor deal with it... you didn't cause the scene you just come to practice... leave the dojo for tardiness is a little extreme what if they were stuck in traffic??? this kind of bickering and feuding is silly... you can tell them i said so...LOL... for what thats worth...

Do you think there is any point in banning people from the dojo.

While I can see there can be a valid reasons for banning someone from a particular dojo, they're small places really and there must be a level of trust in training and discipline, what you're describing is a blanket ban covering that entire association - this makes less sense (unless you're a dangerous psychotic, as I see S. Shields in your post this may be true...).

As regards tracking you down in order to tell you not to train with your own sensei who, I presume has been invited up specifically, that's just downright weird and to my mind rude. I'm also surprised your instructor has acquiesced to this, but without any real details regarding the situation or transgression (which I suggest you don't post, it'll not help) all I can offer is my condolences. Fully support your decision to not turn up as requested. It won't be fun and you'd have just added to your detractors sense of rightness for ignoring a polite request not to attend.

Ah, the wonders of UK Aikido politics... Really, people should grow up but that's not going to happen. I still cannot believe that the UK needs 50 odd Aikido associations of various kind and styles. Although, hearing things like Sean Cassidy's story helps to explains why there are so many.

Aikido spirit is so rarely seen in aikidoka... Shame really.

</jaded>

Strong words there. The only reason I wish to train with them again is because my Sensei is teaching on it. If their senior instructor were teaching, I would not be bothered.

As for just going along, I'm a great believer in you do what you are told. I joined the association I'm with now because I wish to train in they style of Aikido. Within that is, to me, the idea that when a senior grade say something you do not question them, you do what you are told because I believe these people have my best interests at heart. That is why I train with them and why I left the other lot behind.

As for the individual I asked to leave the dojo for being late, he lived 10Min's from the dojo and just didn't seem bothered about getting to class on time. Also the fact I got told off for his behavior the week before and told people to be there on time only, to me made it worst. I dare say if he come on Aikiweb his story would be different.

The people who run this course have a habit of banning people, yes they also like kicking people out of they association. My main point of all this is to find out if anyone thought banning people from the dojo works, or are you seen as being afraid of the people you are banning for what ever reason. may be they afraid I have improved without them. I know that sounds big headed, but in four years I hope I would have improved.

The Aikido I do now is in my view better than it was under they teaching.

No offense but I do not get the impression that we are getting the whole story here.

I stated that in my last post. There is always two sides to the story, but the question is always the same! Do you think you are teaching people Aikido by banning them from your dojo.

Ian,

Are you the gent who has trained with Issac Coll. I was reading a thread put on be Nick Simpson, about how bad he was and I seem to remember you say you had trained with him,

Sean Cassidy wrote: Do you think there is any point in banning people from the dojo.

Sean
to answer the question in your post, yes of course, but only if they have displayed behaviour that warrants it. Being late does not qualify. I can only think that persistant abusive or dangerous behaviour would force me to ban someone.
We can all make mistakes, and we can all learn to modify what we do. However a teacher has all of their students to consider, so if the removal of one is to the benefit of the many then so be it. Aikido is for all, but there has to be some basic rules that everyone abides by.

As for the rest, politics, discussing these difficulties on an open forum could help to worsen the problem if not treated carefully.

Whenever only half a story is told to a wide audience, there is potential for misunderstanding.
Are you looking for support for your position? You talk of 'the other lot'. They may not have a chance to put their side of the story.

regards,
Mark

Sean, yes I've trained with Isaac but the last time must be over 13 years ago. Bad is the wrong word, he was certainly "practical" in his outlook at times and definitely knew his ma. (and please, gent should never be used in conjuction with me)

Very well put Mark. I'm not looking for support but was interested in what people thought. Yes I may have been to Hastie in me asking the individual to leave but I am learning as an instructor all the time. In the same place again may be I would do things different, but the past is the past and I cannot let things pray on my mind, as its so small, I've been told.

As for banning people, yes it is a hard one. If I thought that a person should be banned, do you not think other things could be done to help the problem. As for my problem its not a problem, as I'm not going. I asking other people's view on banning and just using myself as a way of pointing it out.

If a person left my class, trained with someone else. I'd like them to train on a course, for one thing its money to pay for the course and I could see how their Aikido is developing. Yes and there the good sound beating they get to.

I trained with Issac around 15 years ago, and got up to nidan with him. I just thought there, (yes it hurt Nick) do you think Issac would have been please if you showed up late. I never did, I was terrified of him. But his Aikido was brilliant. Anyone wishing a good Aikido class W/Bay WMCA is the place to be.

The banning of people from dojos is not uncommon even if they are at high level. I know of one aikikai shihan (8th dan) who kicked out the shihan I was studying under at the time by having one of his senior students ask him to leave a seminar. He was apparently offended that my instructor had chosen to go with the wrong group when the Tohei - aikikai split occurred decades earlier. Politics always seem to prevail even in the art of harmony.

I'm not sure of the circumstances under which you left-tense or friendly or downright acrimonious. However, I do feel in a free market society, people have the right to restrict whomever they won't unless it is for religious, racial or ethnic reasons. It is just like another thread's conversation on kicking someone out of a dojo. I think they have the right to do so as long as they have valid reasons not based on race, sex, creed, or political reasons. I have refused to allow people to join my dojo-subtlely by directing them off to something else-psychological problems and wanting to go off meds that controlled them. I did not want to risk someone going postal on us.

Sean Cassidy wrote: I was told from the senior instructor in the area that I was not able to attend this course, as the assocation running the course feels that it would create a bad atmoss if I was there. As someone who trains with Sensei as often as possible it was very upsetting to have him teach in the area and not be there. I have spoken to Sensei and he have told me that I am still loved by all, hooray for me. But that is not the point I wish to get on to. Do you think there is any point in banning people from the dojo.

Yes. In this case, apparently, the point is to maintain a certain atmosphere.

I love my sibling...but I really don't care to spend more than the requisite time around them because we're so different. Love's got nothing to do with it.

Maybe it's time you started your own organization.

Lo all, just to clear some issues up:

Sean hasnt been banned from training with his current organanisation, he is in good standing there. His current sensei, is teaching a course for an organisation that sean belonged to in the past. He has been told that certain members of the previous organisation are unhappy with him and would not like to have him on their mat.

Sean is happy to refrain from attending the event, as he is doing what his sensei has asked of him.

Speaking for Sean here, correct me if Im off the money here mate: There is no reason for Sean to start his own organisation and he would not wish to.

This is all about politness and basically, keeping the peace.

Sean, you of course know my mind on the matter, but Im not going to repost it on a public forum

On a more general level, I agree that sometimes there is a valid reason for banning someone from a dojo, e.g. if they are dangerous, consistently rude/offensive/racist/sexist, if they are not interested in learning what is being taught, if they sexually harrass/prey on members of said dojo. Theres prolly more than that, but this is just off the top of my head.

I know the reasons behind these circumstances and personally, I think it is a rather bad example of 'banning' someone. But at the end of the day, it is a one off event as Sean would never wish to step onto these peoples matts on a normal basis (he originally only wished to because his sensei is the guest instructor).

I believe the incident says a great deal about the people involved. Where is the example of 'Big Aikido'?

Show up late on Isaac's matt? Lolz...

Ages ago I was acting an ass and Saotome Sensei gripped me by the arm and bodily threw me off the mat. My best friend was teaching once, and I acted an ass and he threw me off the mat. Each time I went back - and apologized. Well meaning; none too bright.

In this case - think nothing of it. A chance to make amends may present itself later, if you are open to it. My mom is none too pleasant, but for some reason I can't give up on her completely.

Offered humbly.

David

Sean Cassidy wrote: Strong words there. The only reason I wish to train with them again is because my Sensei is teaching on it. If their senior instructor were teaching, I would not be bothered.

I do not know UK very well, but I guess, if the chief instructor for that specific class, i.e. your sensei - invites you, there should not be any one making a scene - unless your behaviour lacks of respect.

Ther might be a few people, who know you better and thus do not practise with you one by one, but there should be enough partners for you - again depending on your behaviour.

I always thought all British gentlemen were good sportsmen and I still believe in British fairness, especially in aikido and there especially on the mat.

Hope the best

Dirk

Cheers for that guy's. But to put the question another way. What am I to learn from being banned from the mat. This is the first time it has happened to me and I just think its pointless, I learn nothing from it. I thought Aikido was about trying to get through to people, yes I do accept that certain behavior is not to be tolerated. But the idea of creating a bad atmoss, which I never would want to do, is a poor reason for banning and the very reason why I'll not attend as well as being told not to. Thanks Nick for post, I don't mind you bottle it. As for setting up on my own. I have no need to, I've never enjoyed my Aikido so much as I do now.

What am I to learn from being banned from the mat

At the risk of sounding flippant, you learned shit happens? Still, on the happy side it sounds like it was helpful to your aikido, rather than a problem.

I've never actually ascribed to the idea that any organization, whatever it's ideals, is more than the individuals involved so I'm less surprised these things happen. As aikido often seems to embrace some of the worst aspects of both ma and spirituality, often through the lens of different cultural perspectives being misapplied, you've got loads of areas for conflict. Having said that, these same problems crop up in any local club of any strip (pigeon fanciers can get really bad as money's involved) so why should we expect aikido to be any different?

OT - pm'd you about Isaac

Sean, you've just learnt that human are despicable, punny and horrible creatures. Welcome to the world of the great jaded ones. Your welcome pack is in the post.

Since you are not far away from York, why don't you come and train with us?

Cool, cheers Yann. Can you pass on your class times and destructions to your dojo. (I mean that its a joke Nick). Would it be ok to bring a few people down with me. I love meet people and Iam I great guy and don't let anyone tell you different.

Sean,

Sure thing, bring folks around. If you come on Monday, there is an open matt for 30 mins at the end of the class so you could use that to show how you guys do things differently.

You can find location and all on the web site but in case you are lazy: YO24 1BJ and google map should give you all you need. www.york-aikido.org/location.html and www.york-aikido.org/training.html should answer the rest.

PS: I should have added that everybody here is welcome to come and visit.