How does one stay stable

I'm wondering what other people would do in this situation. Usually I enjoy practicing with each and every person in my class. Most people have a very cheerful attitude and have a deep interest in improving. But once in a while, when my avoidance tactics fail me, I get with one partner who brings a very cocky attitude to class. I've come to believe that he only comes to class for the sake of his ego. He's quite overweight, so he uses his large stature to resist the throw. He never follows through, then laughs when your throw didn't work. I've asked around, and he has the same effect on everybody. I'm really trying to keep a positive attitude, but it's the LAUGHING! It's all I can do to resist hurting him! Any advice?

BAAAAAD UKE!
What would I do?
If he were below my rank, I would simply tell him that uke's role, among other things, is to provide a sincere and realistic attack, at an appropriate speed, and to provide "constructive" resistance to your technique, but not in a way that prevents you from practicing the technique.

If he were at or above my rank, I think I would speak to my sensei about it, and especially since other people have the same problem with this guy, let him handle it.

In either case, another option would be to abandon the technique that you were trying to practice and let the direction of his resistance dictate your response. For instance, if he pushes back against your ikkyo, it might just turn into shihonage or kotegaeshi. That might get the point across that too much resistance is maybe not so fun after all.

take his centerline, you must be in total control prior to the throw. If your throw is not successful it means you were not able to control him on your opening move,and your ikkyo is bad.

if he can push you back on your ikkyo, then your timing is also delayed. His shomen has already accelerated and has gained power. The moment he raises his hand sword, raise yours and enter, control, redirect and throw. While doing all these your posture must be stable meaning your center is fixed, support (legs) stable, hips and whole body is going in the same direction.

my two cents...

My training is all in Chinese. Can you please define the terms "ikkyo" and "shomen"? Thank you!

Marci Wu wrote: He's quite overweight, so he uses his large stature to resist the throw. He never follows through, then laughs when your throw didn't work. I've asked around, and he has the same effect on everybody.

An idea... what's the real attack here? It's not the attack that you're expecting to get, because the guy isn't really giving one like he's supposed to. What happens is that his passivity sucks you into "attacking" him with the technique, and then he can easily resist it. Don't even try. Even if you're very very good and could throw him without his cooperation, that only serves to teach him that that's what aikido is about, throwing a sandbag around.

"Staying stable" like you asked is exactly what you need to do. Emotionally, mentally stable. Don't go after him, let him come to you, and if he's not willing to do that, just shrug and practice with someone else. Don't get sucked into his little game.

kvaak
Pauliina

shomen uchi - strike to the head
ikkyo - arm pin

Romuel:
Is that ever a cool thumbnail. Where did you find that one?

On topic; I agree with Pauliina: if he doesn't give you an attack, don't do the throw. Then your turn, give an honest attack, and move on to the next guy. Let him stand around if he wants to. If he is a beginner, and you are a senior, explain what kind of attack is being asked for, and why. You need energy in a certain direction, not a block of cement. If you were attacked by a block of cement, that would be a very rare experience, and you wouldn't be advised to try and move it once it came to rest, just walk away. The other thing to mention to him is that if he gives no energy, and he meets up with someone bigger and stronger, he may get injured if he continues to act this way. It might be a good idea for sensei to review with him what his learning objectives are, and help him figure out how to do that without stopping the learning of everyone else in the dojo.
e ya later
Jill.

Just stand here.
If you don't move and he doesn't hit you, he might get the hint actually make a proper attack.
Or try stepping back to make him have to come forward to reach you, so you have a little more to work with.
Otherwise you can try atemi & work from his reaction.

Or just not train with him.

Romuel: nice thumb.
Looks straight out of a Yoshinkan instructional video.

Jill - sent you a PM for the link.
Stuart

Today, having learnt my lesson a somewhat veteran student - I would LET HIM GO. I may even bow to him and thank him for the joint practice...
I have behaved differently in the past, and being with a large technical advantage, I harmed such people by not giving up and applying the locks with enough force (when you are in position, not much force is required). I have learned my lesson since, and came to realize my Ego is not worth harming a beginner student who tries foolish things.

As for the "how to throw him"? If you are experienced enough, you should be able to find the right opening, even when Uke does not wish you to. This will likely involve using a different technique then the pre-assigned one. In particular, if Uke is much heavier then you, you should use a joint-lock that places all your body against a small muscle group of his. After all, this is one of Aikido principles.


But my main advice to you is to ignore him, if he doesn't give as Uke, he won't progress in his studies and he will leave the dojo soon enough.

Amir

I know this is probably not the right attitude to take as walking away might be more benefical, but I would train with him as much as possible. If he is much bigger and stronger than you, I find it makes me get my techniques dead on or else they won't work.

I'm not very big 5'10 and weighing about 140 lbs. I really don't have much upper body strength and perhaps that's why I like Aikido so much, that sort of thing doesn't matter. And because it doesn't matter, when practicing with a bigger guy you're technique really has to be good or else it won't work. I've noticed that some naga's can just muscle through techniques when I am uke. I know I have done so on occasion when practicing with someone smaller and I always hate that I do it even as I do. But with someone stronger, I know my technique is relatively good because my uke goes down If nothing else you can pair with him quickly to get it over with

You don't have to necessarily hurt him when appling locks or pins, but someone who is antagonistic can be excellent training to help you maintain you're center. A cocky attitude may start to take some hits once he realizes that you can use his size against him. I know it's a stereotype and I apologize to anyone who takes offense but I find oftentimes the bigger someone is, the harder it is for them to regain their balance once you have taken it. Use it against him and before too long he might be the one avoiding you!

There are also some techniques you can use that work really well to bring him down a peg. Personally I find Shionage (I think that's spelled right) is a nice technique against someone bigger. When you step though, the step just before bringing their arm across your shoulder from the throw, I find twisting their wrist towards you helps to get bigger uke's on their toes if they are taller than you. I know this works cause I always tell a couple of the girls in class (two of the only ones smaller than me) when I offer resistance. I've also done it to someone about my size who seemed like they were flat out trying to pound my and another uke into the mat, though that was most likely the wrong attitude to take (though he decided to calm down quite a bit afterwards and now we practice quite a bit whenever he's around).

But that's a really long winded post, basically what you do it up to you. This is just another option and my two cents. I've only been practicing for about 6-7 months so perhaps someone who's been at it longer has better advice.

Jill's comment about an attacking block of cement is right on the money in my opinion. If Uke is not giving energy to the attack then there is no energy to throw them with...so you both just stand there?!?

Another big problem i find is that uke may attack with lots of energy but stops once you avoid the intial strike. Say with tsuki kotegaeshi, the uke throws the punch, you tenkan, and then they stop waiting for you to throw them. Uke should have then turned into you to follow you after your tenkan. If they do this makes the kotegaeshi part effortless, otherwise you have to really pull them around which i believe is not aikido.

Marci Wu wrote: I'm wondering what other people would do in this situation. Usually I enjoy practicing with each and every person in my class. Most people have a very cheerful attitude and have a deep interest in improving. But once in a while, when my avoidance tactics fail me, I get with one partner who brings a very cocky attitude to class. I've come to believe that he only comes to class for the sake of his ego. He's quite overweight, so he uses his large stature to resist the throw. He never follows through, then laughs when your throw didn't work. I've asked around, and he has the same effect on everybody. I'm really trying to keep a positive attitude, but it's the LAUGHING! It's all I can do to resist hurting him! Any advice?

Ni ye hao Marci,

There are many reason people do aikido; some for exercise, some as a social past time, some as self-defense and some because their job require it (e.g. prison warder etc)

Ask yourself why do you learn aikido. If it is not for its martial application, my advice is let it go, just practice and enjoy it, avoid the bully and carry on life as usual. When you can't do it, just don't do it, when he has no one to show his ego, he will go away, hopefully.

If you are learning heqidao/aikido as wushu/martial art, you have to bring the fellow down or else it is injustice to the time (5 years you mentioned previously) you have invested and also to your teacher. You learn to be able to apply the technique and when such none compliant partner appears you should use it as an opportunity to fine tune your technique. Ask yourself or your teacher, why can't you bring him down. If your teacher is unable to explain, then maybe the teacher should start becoming student again.

With 5 years on regular practice, my guess is a decent practitioner shoud be able to apply techniques or use their skills to apply a successful tech even to someone heavier than you. If the person you are complaining about is someone who is highly skilled in another art... then that is another issue altogether.

Irrashimase, irrashimase which loosely translate means come on in, do your worse. . I'd recommend this mindset when training with non-compliant partner.

Wenfung.

Marci Wu wrote: I'm wondering what other people would do in this situation. Usually I enjoy practicing with each and every person in my class. Most people have a very cheerful attitude and have a deep interest in improving. But once in a while, when my avoidance tactics fail me, I get with one partner who brings a very cocky attitude to class. I've come to believe that he only comes to class for the sake of his ego. He's quite overweight, so he uses his large stature to resist the throw. He never follows through, then laughs when your throw didn't work. I've asked around, and he has the same effect on everybody. I'm really trying to keep a positive attitude, but it's the LAUGHING! It's all I can do to resist hurting him! Any advice?

There are ways of making a non-cooperative uke cooperate. It's called "pain-compliance". Without the pain compliance, nothing's going to happen.

Oh, and that ought to stop the laughing problem too...

Remember, aikido IS a martial art. Sometimes you just have to hurt people (a little bit) to show them you mean business.

Ben Walter wrote: Another big problem i find is that uke may attack with lots of energy but stops once you avoid the intial strike. Say with tsuki kotegaeshi, the uke throws the punch, you tenkan, and then they stop waiting for you to throw them. Uke should have then turned into you to follow you after your tenkan. If they do this makes the kotegaeshi part effortless, otherwise you have to really pull them around which i believe is not aikido.

You're right: if your timing and balance break aren't there and you have to haul them around, it's not aikido. I'll get there one day, maybe. :-)
If uke is trying to learn about connection and sensitivity to force and direction themself, they'll probably be moving like that though anyway.
Problem is that you won't always get an uke experienced enough to know how to do it properly for you, even if they are inclined to.

One thing to try is to close the distance further/quicker on them as the punch comes in, so they are still moving when you tenkan and apply the technique, so the balance break is easier to achive.

We'd all like 5 + 5 = 10, but sometimes you gotta provide the 8 for their 2, or the 2 to their 8.

Ignatius Teo wrote: There are ways of making a non-cooperative uke cooperate. It's called "pain-compliance". Without the pain compliance, nothing's going to happen.

<counting to 10 and breathing deeply...>

Not being able to move a stubborn uke is how more than a few of us still are, but that's about learning proper timing and kuzushi.
Getting them to move just coz you're trying to tear their hand off at the wrist just proves you're a bully.

Just coz they're on an ego trip, doesn't mean you have to join them.

Ben Walter wrote: ,,,<snip>... Another big problem i find is that uke may attack with lots of energy but stops once you avoid the intial strike. Say with tsuki kotegaeshi, the uke throws the punch, you tenkan, and then they stop waiting for you to throw them. Uke should have then turned into you to follow you after your tenkan. If they do this makes the kotegaeshi part effortless, otherwise you have to really pull them around which i believe is not aikido.

Salutation Ben,

I used to face a similar problem as you described above. I was frustrated and kept asking in my mind... why the hell don't they move around into position like we see in those beautiful demos?

After some "explaination" by sensei, I realised that why should they? I was the tori, it is my job to make them move. In real encounter, no aggressor will be that cooperative.

So what happen was, I was told to move my one arm into position for hijiate after the initial tenkan. Then using the hijiate position, spin the uke around which uke must move due to the pressure on elbow, then abruptly stop and reverse direction. The other hand which you are holding to the wrist, move into position for kotegashi. Holding the wrist near your hara (near navel), apply kotegashi with a direct downward force. Pls note: you also apply ude garami from this similar movement.

This results in a uke who must fall, not only due to the massive pressure on the wrist but also you would have taken his balance by means of kuzushi.

Do try this Ben. I hope this helps.

Boon.

Stuart Norton wrote: <counting to 10 and breathing deeply...> Not being able to move a stubborn uke is how more than a few of us still are, but that's about learning proper timing and kuzushi. Getting them to move just coz you're trying to tear their hand off at the wrist just proves you're a bully. Just coz they're on an ego trip, doesn't mean you have to join them.

Hmmm..... I don't think I said "tear their hand off"... I said there are "ways"... of course, bending a joint to the limit of its natural range of motion comes to mind, but pressure points, pinching, atemi etc.. are other ways.

I'm sorry, but the first 5 forms ikkyo->gokyo are pain compliance joint locks. Of course if you know how to take someone's center so you don't hurt them is good, but if necessary, i.e. if they insist on resisting, the pain is going to come on whether they like it or not. Even shiho-nage and kote gaeshi, if done properly, results in pain compliance to effect a kuzushi.

I'm no bully, and I'm far beyond the ego trip thing, but if someone is just standing there laughing (go on, do something!), there is no training. You can try and apply timing and kuzushi all you like, it's not going to happen.

If you don't believe me, go and cross train with other martial artists and see if your timing and kuzushi works on them.

Ignatius Teo wrote: I'm sorry, but the first 5 forms ikkyo->gokyo are pain compliance joint locks. Of course if you know how to take someone's center so you don't hurt them is good, but if necessary, i.e. if they insist on resisting, the pain is going to come on whether they like it or not. Even shiho-nage and kote gaeshi, if done properly, results in pain compliance to effect a kuzushi. I'm no bully, and I'm far beyond the ego trip thing, but if someone is just standing there laughing (go on, do something!), there is no training. You can try and apply timing and kuzushi all you like, it's not going to happen. If you don't believe me, go and cross train with other martial artists and see if your timing and kuzushi works on them.

In principle, I'll have to agree to disagree.

In practice, you're right: _my_ timing and kuzushi probably wouldn't. That's why I do train.

As for pain compliance joint locks, you're right too, at the level I'm at (though why the ikkajo pin itself should cause pain unless they try to escape it, I can only guess).
But I've had nikajo done on me by a couple of people where there as no pain: my knees just disappeared.
Or kote gaeshi where the world just turns and I've felt literally nothing.
So this is what I strive to attain. Whether I manage to, only time will tell.

Besides, isn't the whole point of kuzushi to render them unable to resist properly?

This sounds like the whole "Aikido works: your Aikido doesn't".
Mine doesn't. It's getting better as I keep training though, and isn't that why we do it?

IMHO, while it can be very frustrating to work with some one whose sole purpose is to defeat you and prove their ego right, it does provide an excellent opportunity to work on yourself. Few people really understand the beauty of a great training partner, one who does give it to you but makes you work for it.

You may want to blend deeper and faster in order to catch him before he stops. Work on your own entering and timing.

You may "prescribe the symptom" by thanking him for making you really focus on your practice of moving yourself not him. You can ask him to stop without momentum so you can work on the first part of enter and blend by just getting off the line.

You can pause at the point he stops and gently take his balance by connecting and pushing into his center and then slightly off to the kuzushi balance point. Big guys can handle force, but our bodies don't know how to handle gentleness. Give us less, not more.

As soon as he stops, bow, and move on to the next uke.

IMHO, always ask what this opportunity can teach you.

If you cannot move UKE as NAGE, and remain stable, then please ask the instructor what you are doing wrong (with this uke present). Don't assume you know what you are doing, and the UKE is just an a**hole... Leave that to the instructor to decide.

That being said, you may be right -- and a lot of the advice given so far is good advice on how possibly to handle the situation.

However, IMHO, your instructor should be given the chance to illuminate the situation.

If your instructor simply says, "continue practice!", then it is safe to assume that this uke is one of the "rocks" in your path that you will need to use to polish your techniques. Laugh along with him, and one of these days you are going to succeed and he will be amazed, and probably not laughing

Xu Wenfung wrote: Salutation Ben, I used to face a similar problem as you described above. I was frustrated and kept asking in my mind... why the hell don't they move around into position like we see in those beautiful demos? After some "explaination" by sensei, I realised that why should they? I was the tori, it is my job to make them move. In real encounter, no aggressor will be that cooperative. So what happen was, I was told to move my one arm into position for hijiate after the initial tenkan. Then using the hijiate position, spin the uke around which uke must move due to the pressure on elbow, then abruptly stop and reverse direction. The other hand which you are holding to the wrist, move into position for kotegashi. Holding the wrist near your hara (near navel), apply kotegashi with a direct downward force. Pls note: you also apply ude garami from this similar movement. This results in a uke who must fall, not only due to the massive pressure on the wrist but also you would have taken his balance by means of kuzushi. Do try this Ben. I hope this helps. Boon.

I will have a play with your suggestion. Thanks.

I keep have a recurring thought though. Why should uke follow you after your tenkan -> Why is uke attacking in the first place? I think we as uke's should start an attack, and keep attacking until we are disposed of by nage in some way...

bendo

Many throws are uke's opportunity to escape from a strike. If he resists to the point of foolishness; show him the strike (in a harmonious way, of course)

Anyone can stop technique when they know what's coming. Kata practice has many assumptions. If he's a "bad uke,' then change technique. It's amazing how well aikido works when uke doesn't know what's coming . . .

Stuart Norton wrote: In principle, I'll have to agree to disagree. In practice, you're right: _my_ timing and kuzushi probably wouldn't. That's why I do train. As for pain compliance joint locks, you're right too, at the level I'm at (though why the ikkajo pin itself should cause pain unless they try to escape it, I can only guess). But I've had nikajo done on me by a couple of people where there as no pain: my knees just disappeared. Or kote gaeshi where the world just turns and I've felt literally nothing. So this is what I strive to attain. Whether I manage to, only time will tell. Besides, isn't the whole point of kuzushi to render them unable to resist properly? This sounds like the whole "Aikido works: your Aikido doesn't". Mine doesn't. It's getting better as I keep training though, and isn't that why we do it?

Hi Stuart,

How's the weather in sunny/rainy Melbourne?

Fair enough... though I'm not sure how you can disagree on principle yet agree with both points I make?

Particularly in light of your other comments:

We'd all like 5 + 5 = 10, but sometimes you gotta provide the 8 for their 2, or the 2 to their 8.

and

Otherwise you can try atemi & work from his reaction.

I disagree with DCP about "showing the strike"... IMHE, "showing" does nothing; some people simply do NOT react as if they've been struck. Most people, when training, their body is physically present, but their mind is usually someplace else. "Showing" them where you "could have" hit them, will not elicit the same reaction as if you really did "pop 'em one".

Having done jujitsu, ikkyo->gokyo ARE pain compliance joint locks - although I am aware you can apply them without the pain component, and still affect uke's center - partly due to the fact that you are structurally locking them correctly, and partly because most people are "programmed" to go with the flow (rather than the pain).

But as Lynn and Peter suggest, by all means, use the opportunity to study what you are missing....