100% Cooperative Training

Mary Eastland wrote: A video is just moment of training. It does not encompass everything about a system. I am sure we all have moments in our classes if caught on video would not represent all that we teach. I am not sure what the principle was that was in that video but the movement was beautiful.

I agree Mary. I too don't like jumping to conclusions for the only way to know what's being shown or done there is to ask the people doing it.

There is a drill I do which I was taught that I referred to above.

In this drill a person holds out their hand inviting someone to come and grab their wrist. Their job is then to move in such a way that the other doesn't quite reach it but always feels they can so keeps trying. It's a drill on leading. Physically this would mean the offered 'wrist' is somehow always about two inches away.

The rules given to the uke are these: If you feel you can get the wrist then carry on. If you feel you can't then stop. If you get the wrist then stop also.

Thus the drill ends either with a stop or nage leading uke into a technique, which by the way has to be done at the same speed also.

Thus the speed of attack can then be increased and the drill repeated ad infinitum.

Versions of this drill would look similar, done slowly, to the video shown.

Regards.G.

Not buying the "because it has rules it is cooperative" logic. A judo player trying to throw his opponent is a good example. yeah while there are rules such as you can't kick or punch and you must engage....the guy getting thrown is not cooperating in the least with his opponent. He is trying his best not to get thrown. Alas, he might get thrown in a textbook perfect throw. Did it require cooperation for that throw to happen? Not really.

Now lets look at how it is sometimes practiced in some aikido dojos where uke "gives" nage his center in order to allow nage to practice a throw. Cooperative.

Not saying that in practice that cooperation is not necessary. Absolutely it is. There are varying degrees of resistance that are given or not given in order to allow a person to practice certain aspects.

However, those control measures must be completely understood AND removed ....yes...that is key REMOVED to create a problem set that is ALIVE for nage if he ever expects to actually be able to do anything for real.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Not buying the "because it has rules it is cooperative" logic. A judo player trying to throw his opponent is a good example. yeah while there are rules such as you can't kick or punch and you must engage....the guy getting thrown is not cooperating in the least with his opponent. He is trying his best not to get thrown. Alas, he might get thrown in a textbook perfect throw. Did it require cooperation for that throw to happen? Not really. Now lets look at how it is sometimes practiced in some aikido dojos where uke "gives" nage his center in order to allow nage to practice a throw. Cooperative. Not saying that in practice that cooperation is not necessary. Absolutely it is. There are varying degrees of resistance that are given or not given in order to allow a person to practice certain aspects. However, those control measures must be completely understood AND removed ....yes...that is key REMOVED to create a problem set that is ALIVE for nage if he ever expects to actually be able to do anything for real.

Hi Kevin. In the judo they do 100% agree to the rules of judo thus cooperation.

In the giving your center to example I would call that collusive. Collusive in that respect therefore I don't find very helpful at all. Wrong purpose.

So I would say it's not different to what you are saying, just semantics.

Regards.G.

Mary Eastland wrote: A video is just moment of training. It does not encompass everything about a system. I am sure we all have moments in our classes if caught on video would not represent all that we teach. I am not sure what the principle was that was in that video but the movement was beautiful.

How are these different?
this
this
or
this
Define it.

Movement ...for the sake of movement is fine by me. Although form that follows function is compelling on its own. But movement without actual attacks and meaningful defenses is simply not budo.
And it never will be.
These debates did not occur for long in the history of budo. People who advocated poorly formed ideas in a culture of trained warriors...did not make it home. And their ideas died with them.
Today people enjoy the luxury of avoidance. Of never being truly tested. Put most martial "artists"...cough.. back in time a few hundred years and you would not have to worry about ever hearing their theories again.
And that's it and that's all.
Dan

From another thread:
To strain a point only to demonstrate an extreme:
1. Cooperative training like the type in these videos will never produce an excellent cage fighter, agreed?
2. Yet there is cooperative training in MMA as well. Drills are used as a first step in training before the advanced stress training (win/lose) takes place to fine tune and improve skills.
So now it is just a measure of discussing degrees of what cooperative training can and cannot do. And whether or not you want to be in a budo that cant stop violence or not.
People need to be self aware of their choices, otherwise as a teacher you ay contribute to your students getting seriously hurt were they to rely on your bad advice and poor training.

Were someone trained to fight force-on-force to face someone who only trained cooperatively? I will bet on the force-on-force guy everytime.
Why? The training to win model is superior in producing results in budo.
Dan

I'm not playing the semantics game. It's a dodge. Everyone knows what we are talking about.
What degree of alive? What do define as cooperative? What do you mean cooperative, what if it's a little cooperative? Who decides the rules.....
Invite them out with some 4oz gloves, and you would never have to worry about their theories anymore.
The whole thing is a massive exercise to validate an obviously palid and weak practice based on total cooperation. That's bad enough, but often these people want equal standing with the people who sweated and bled for hard won skills these pretenders can never touch otherwise.
Dan

It may be movement for the sake of teaching a principle. Do you, Dan, teach principles as they relate to let's say, shiho nage or nikkyo or kokyu nage....sometimes movement or another unconventional idea can teach about something martial.

Feeling one's center when static is different than doing a technique in motion. How would IP relate to techniques during randori?

Everyone can have equal standing...no one really gets to decide who can speak and who cannot.

Mary Eastland wrote: It may be movement for the sake of teaching a principle. Do you, Dan, teach principles as they relate to let's say, shiho nage or nikkyo or kokyu nage...

None of those movements were related to the effective execution of anything they were doing. Which if you watch was stridently obvous. In fact I would assess them as highly inefficient to the task at hand. I saw no aiki and no centered movement.

sometimes movement or another unconventional idea can teach about something martial.

I think martial movement and principles do a better job of teaching martial movement and principles. For most...at the very least it would mark a good beginning for them. It will fix a host of problems in how they move, react, feel and affect their uke.

Feeling one's center when static is different than doing a technique in motion.

No it isn't, not if you know what you're doing. Everything is the same start to finish and it fixes all of the problems of folks who are desperately trying to move from center...and don't know how.
No one likes to be told they don't know what they are doing, but I have never bought into the kumbaya, I'm okay, your okay idea of budo or music or anything else.
With fighting and knowledge of Budo inside budo:
With the vast majority of people in budo it's a measure of degrees of effectivenss and approaches and expertise. But there are also people who obviously are learning and just do not know what they are doing. Period.

How would IP relate to techniques during randori?

How and where does it not?
IP is the source of aiki. You do not move without it.
The first and foremost effect it has....is....aiki.
Let's see for ideals and goals in deliverables?
As opposed to ukemi and cooperatvie play how about they don't want to cooperate and yet...
Your opponent is stuck to you and moves when you move. My favorite comment I have heard people yell in frustration as I am stuck to them like a wet blanket. "Get off me!!!"
You move without telegraphing-they cannot feel you moving or see you moving till it is typically too late.
You project
plant
absorb
Their actions are nullified
They can't get force into you to do anything to you
You don't need to move much to move them
You weight them with crushing force that is not dedicated and they cannot get you
When they push to pull and pull to push you look at em as it is disolved and then you play them and they have trouble stopping you
When they try to wrap your legs and sweep you nothing happens and you typcially throw them or they get the hell out of the way
When they hit you on most of your body you don't care
Your atemi does what Ueshiba said it is supposed to do...it is deadly.
Your punches punch through their blocks and hurt their arms
Your stick collapses their defense and beats the crap out of them
With weapons you cut through them, you cancel them out...you cut wth tremendous power without a lot of energy, your are much faster.
Thats off the top of my head.

There are a couple hundred people here from san dan to Shihan who have seen me do all of the above in open rooms also with MMA and FMA and Chinese ICMA master level people... that I am writing this in full view of. If anyone would like to contradict me... Let's hear it.


I separated your two statements as they are not related

Everyone can have equal standing...

No Mary, No they can't
You are not equal to me in standing for martial skills, Internal power, aiki, fighting, and weapons use.
I am not equal to Rickson Gracie in ability in BJJ, fighting experience and good looks.
Sorry, Mary it's just the way it is.
You can't have equal standing to everyone without doing the work to at least try and everyone will fail and find their pace. Not knowing your place is what gets the little entitlement junkies into trouble when they demand equality with people with real talent and skills. There are truly expectional genius's in the world and also kids who should be left back to repeat till they get it right.
I liked my mechanic over the guy down the street from him.He actually fixed cars for less money. The other guy went out of business.

2. no one really gets to decide who can speak and who cannot.

Where? Here? Where does anyone not have a right to speak?
The beauty of the internet is everyone gets to be heard. And then everyone gets to hear what you say.
It doesn't always go so well for everyone.
The day little Billy with six months into TKD tells Ueshiro he doesn't understand Karate....
Or little tommy with his twirly sword is equal to Yagyu Soke.....
And we have to call their opinions equal, has not arrived yet.
It's coming though.
Dan

Every one can speak. I can decide what Aikido means to me. For me there is no contest. You can talk about tearing folks apart....I am more interested in resolving conflict and being peaceful.

Dan, you really don't understand Aikido as I practice it...that is okay...try to be more tolerant of what you don't understand...It won't make you weak.

You can't judge how I feel by other people you have met. We will probably never meet on the mat because our ideas are so different and you can't meet with people unless you are teaching. I understand about that.

AikiWeb is a small part of the Aikido world. It seems as if the majority of people that train in traditional Aikido have gone silent but that doesn't mean they have disappeared.

Trying to discuss this with you is like trying to empty the ocean with a thimble. You keep saying the same thing. The thing seems to be "I am the way and the light and future of an art I don't even train in."
People with nothing to fear can see through all that. We don't need saving.

Mary Eastland wrote: People with nothing to fear can see through all that. We don't need saving.

we do, but not by dan. he's just one person. he and others like him were a catalyst. they gave us ideas and shown us, some of us, what we thought were not possible possible. in the end, we carry the day, not dan, not those like him. we do need saving, from ourselves.

Mary Eastland wrote: Every one can speak. I can decide what Aikido means to me. For me there is no contest.

Well I don't know how many times we keep going over this, and I say the same ol things
Here we go
1. "Everyone can do whatever they want as their practice and should be let alone."
2. "The only time it draws fire is when they talk about it being martially effective."

You can talk about tearing folks apart....I am more interested in resolving conflict and being peaceful. Dan, you really don't understand Aikido as I practice it...that is okay...try to be more tolerant of what you don't understand...It won't make you weak.

I should be tolerant? Seriously? You.... are saying that to me?
Other quotes you seem to slip right past
"There is nothing wrong with cooperative aikido. I know some seriously capable people who came to aikido for that. They enjoy what it has done for them and they love catching air."
Look them up. Would you like me to paste them as a signature so you can be reminded?

Again, the only time we discuss things is over martial effectveness. If you want to tell us that your type of practice produces capable fighters you are going to get called on it. Other than that. Have a ball, God bless. I am happy for you.
But why is that okay and I am not, Mary?

You can't judge how I feel by other people you have met. We will probably never meet on the mat because our ideas are so different and you can't meet with people unless you are teaching. I understand about that. AikiWeb is a small part of the Aikido world. It seems as if the majority of people that train in traditional Aikido have gone silent but that doesn't mean they have disappeared. Trying to discuss this with you is like trying to empty the ocean with a thimble. You keep saying the same thing. The thing seems to be "I am the way and the light and future of an art I don't even train in." People with nothing to fear can see through all that. We don't need saving.

Well that's not accurate and the spirit of it is negative.
I have said over and over that this is throughout Asia and for our discussion it is the source of Ueshiba's skills. Here now wait. You probably didnt hear did ya? The source of this stuff is Ueshibas art. Apparently you have not read that either.
I also said that the aikido teachers I am with are going to be the ones to bring this into aikido and not me. I have an exit plan.
Didn't read me saying that umpteen times either?

For someone who claims to have read what I write you seem to selectively read. Why is that?
You also asked me a series of questions, and this was what I got.
Okay then.
Dan

Mary
It appears to me from a never ending stream of debates before I ever started posting here that many in what you called traditional Aikido do not consider your type of practice...theirs.. of course others do. Not my business
And that seems to be the source of the never ending"Is aikido effective debates. Look at the recent ones. The majority of which I stay out of.

Having met and trained with teachers from around the world I would have to say that most of them are not fans of overcooperative practice. In fact it seems they hate it. They go on and on about it in no uncertain terms. That seems to be echoed here with many teachers who debate with you and Graham. Read the recent posts for an examples.
I think you are conveniently expressing your feelings about that with me as a focus.

My goals are Aikido getting back to Ueshiba's aiki. I think you and Ron are good people and I wish you well.
Dan

I think it is because you are posting in the Aikido section. I can understand if it was in the other martial arts section but to me (and I could be wrong) when we post up here it is implied we are talking about Aikido. I do get confused by that.

I am not trying to be difficult or sarcastic. I am really discussing.

It could also be that I am up too late. I better hit the hay. Have a nice dream

Well
Since I put my time in and sweated and even got damaged and I am an Aikido-ka and I am teaching Aikido teachers, and it is all about teaching Ueshiba's aiki and the things he wrote and did in Aikido...it seems pretty obvious to me. Think of it this way, I just left and came back.
Dan

Mary Eastland wrote: I think it is because you are posting in the Aikido section. I can understand if it was in the other martial arts section but to me (and I could be wrong) when we post up here it is implied we are talking about Aikido. I do get confused by that. I am not trying to be difficult or sarcastic. I am really discussing. It could also be that I am up too late. I better hit the hay. Have a nice dream

I see that Dan answered for himself, but why would you think that we weren't talking about Aikido? How can discussing Aiki, and optimal training methods for Aiki, not be related to Aikido?

Also, I'm not sure what you're considering "traditional" Aikido - I've heard Yoshinkan people apply that label to themselves - also Iwama folks and some folks under Shirata - Aikikai hombu even.

You appear to be independent from an organization that was split from an organization which was in itself a split from the "traditional" branch. How is that more "traditional" than anybody else? Tohei himself said that quite a lot (most) of what he was doing was of his own innovation...

Best,

Chris

Well there is a bit of a back lash isn't there? I do keep track of what people say.
Some folks have written in with the same comments of feeling they are being silenced, pressured, pushed out.. The comments on the feeling of being silenced seems to occur most often from Mary Malmros and Mary Eastland. It happen several times in the last few days. Also some comment about "we have a right to speak and everyone is equal."
So if you note the push back to me is that I shouldn't be here and have no right to talk in the Aikido section.
Make more sense?
Kind of weird though...
I am Aikido-ka
Talking about Aikido
And Aikido teachers and Shihan come to train Aiki with me and I can't discuss aikido knowledgably?
Hmm...

Dan

Hi folks,

Can you please steer away from discussing each other and steer towards discussing the topic?

Thank you,

-- Jun

Katherine Derbyshire wrote: "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone. "It means just what I choose it to mean - neither more or less." Katherine

Alice:
It would be so nice if something made sense for a change.

The Duchess:
Tut, tut, child! Everything's got a moral, if only you can find it.

Graham Christian wrote: Nathan hit the nail on the head. Co-operative training as I defined stands far apart from what Dan shows as an example. I call that collusive training. .

I was just thinking about this the other day, the difference between cooperative and collusive training.

Most training is cooperative - I really don't see how skills can be developed or imparted without cooperation at some point, whether it is direct teacher-t-student contact, or a training overseen by a teacher.

Kata-based training is certainly cooperative. Even if the kata involves a full-power attack.

Resistance can be cooperative. Progressive resistance is obviously cooperative, but full-power resistance can also be cooperative if the technique is designed to overcome full resistance, such as some jujutsu I have seen, and I believe Iwama training goes through cycles like that.

Kali / escrima flow drills are cooperative...even if one side is trying to do "outpace" the other such that they can get a cut in. Western boxing training using focus mits and striking pads and such is also cooperative.

I think it is fair to say that a "contest" element of training, such as judo randori, rolling, or free sparring, is not entirely cooperative. But IMO you don't see that as more than a component of training....even in BJJ they practice technique. They may not want to admit that they train cooperatively but they do.

Collusion is not the same thing as cooperation....collusion, I would define as when someone tanks in a surprising or unexpected fashion during training. Particularly if it leads nage to believe they did the throw. That's what gives the whole concept of cooperation a bad name - the idea that it might actually delude or ruin the training of the thrower by making them feel that they can do things that they cannot. This is the root of the old outsider view of Aikido as pointless. But I've never really experienced it personally. (I think the collusion between the instructor and his or her uke as they are demonstrating a technique is a slightly different category of thing....since that would be about allowing the teacher to show something, and not to improve the teacher's skills.)

What I have experienced in Aikido is a real problem....there is an encouragement in my style and some others to do the "free flowing" thing....to suddenly flow into another technique. Or to try to reverse a technique. This can make for some beautiful exchanges of energy on the mat. It can also bring out the worse in some people. People will often decide to change techniques or attempt a reversal for egotistical reasons. I think this gets away from both cooperation and collusion, but it is bad - you can teach your partner to be scared or distrustful on the mat, and you can injure them.

Re: 100% Cooperative Training

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Dan harden wrote:

How are these different?
this
this
or
this
Define it.

Movement ...for the sake of movement is fine by me. Although form that follows function is compelling on its own. But movement without actual attacks and meaningful defenses is simply not budo.

Strongly agree, if any of those people in those videos, claim to be martial artists or self defense experts
and I had the misfortune of training under them, I would just fall on my sword when the time came.
Dancing with the Stars maybe calling though......

Dan Harden wrote: Well there is a bit of a back lash isn't there? I do keep track of what people say. Some folks have written in with the same comments of feeling they are being silenced, pressured, pushed out.. The comments on the feeling of being silenced seems to occur most often from Mary Malmros and Mary Eastland. It happen several times in the last few days. Also some comment about "we have a right to speak and everyone is equal." So if you note the push back to me is that I shouldn't be here and have no right to talk in the Aikido section. Make more sense? Kind of weird though... I am Aikido-ka Talking about Aikido And Aikido teachers and Shihan come to train Aiki with me and I can't discuss aikido knowledgeably? Hmm... Dan

When you do shiho nage how do you teach about IP? How about during Randori? I am interested in ideas about that...I know how I do it....If does really need to be felt and talked about on the mat. I understand what you are saying.

For me safety is really important around technique. Shiho nage can be very complicated when focusing on using no muscle and just letting it happen. It makes a wonderful vessel for a challenge in being centered and not forcing things to happen.

Noro Masamichi (the first video Dan posted) was one of the early pioneers of aikido Europe.
After a severe car accident he couldn't do budo anymore. He gave back his shihan-title to hombu.

He then developped special movement patterns which have roots in aikido, but are closely connected to some different "moving systems", health gymnastics, hara training, contact work and things like Feldenkrais and Euthonie.

Noro sensei clearly doesn't claim his way of moving aikido! He clearly doesn't claim it to be a budo!
Officially it is called: "aiki no michi - Methode (method of) Noro".

Because of his special situtiation the "Methode Noro" is Member of the french aikido federation FFAAA:

French
Federation of
Aikido -> Christian Tissier
Aiki Budo -> Mochizuki Minoru
Affinitaire= related -> Ki no michi, Noro Masamichi

So the videos of Noro sensei should definitely not be used to understand aikido.
The Methode Noro is meant to do harmonical, cooperative Movements. And in the view of Noro sensei this clearly distinguishes it from aikido or budo.

Carsten. There are videos of Noro doing Aikido if you care to look for them as he was one of the 'pioneers' in England and France of Aikido.

I have never personally met him. However, from those early days when he was teaching Aikido and thus my Teacher I have many personal stories which have obviously been given to me about such times.

Just adding a bit more information for you.

Regards.G.

Mary Eastland wrote: When you do shiho nage how do you teach about IP? How about during Randori? I am interested in ideas about that...I know how I do it....If does really need to be felt and talked about on the mat. I understand what you are saying. For me safety is really important around technique. Shiho nage can be very complicated when focusing on using no muscle and just letting it happen. It makes a wonderful vessel for a challenge in being centered and not forcing things to happen.

You realize you are asking me about your movement and understanding? Is this where I answer and I get accused of a personal attack because someone asked me about their training and I discussed their movement?
1. You don't teach IP in a waza.
2. You don't teach IP in randori
3. Internal power is best trained separately. It is obvious in the videos that peoples bodies are not moving centered in their movement. You are never going to get there-no one is-without specific training to join your limbs to your center and learn to strengthen that. Secondary issues is in how that will control anyone who contacts you...without you thinking about it much. When you train appropriately they will follow your movement without you being stressed. Even when they start to resist, your connection will pretty much control things. A third consideration is the myriad ways in which you can decide to play them and control them with aiki. This is complex and quite fun. Of course if you don't want to control people the other aspects of IP training come to the fore and may help as your body will be conditioned and able to take more punishment when your attacker starts to control you.
4. Shiho nage is not complicated and is not a single waza anyway, and I wouldn't ever chose to use it.
5. You keep bringing safety up as if it isn't a concern for anyone else but you. Why?
6. There is no real "challenge" in being centered in aikido as a vessel. The art itself doesn't do anything at a level to really stress anyone with a well developed center. Aikido -at best- moderately stresses a developed system. That is one of the reasons it can be so much fun when you do have a well developed center.

Dan

Carsten Möllering wrote: Noro Masamichi (the first video Dan posted) was one of the early pioneers of aikido Europe. After a severe car accident he couldn't do budo anymore. He gave back his shihan-title to hombu. He then developped special movement patterns which have roots in aikido, but are closely connected to some different "moving systems", health gymnastics, hara training, contact work and things like Feldenkrais and Euthonie. Noro sensei clearly doesn't claim his way of moving aikido! He clearly doesn't claim it to be a budo! Officially it is called: "aiki no michi - Methode (method of) Noro". Because of his special situtiation the "Methode Noro" is Member of the french aikido federation FFAAA: French Federation of Aikido -> Christian Tissier Aiki Budo -> Mochizuki Minoru Affinitaire= related -> Ki no michi, Noro Masamichi So the videos of Noro sensei should definitely not be used to understand aikido. The Methode Noro is meant to do harmonical, cooperative Movements. And in the view of Noro sensei this clearly distinguishes it from aikido or budo.

Hi Carlston
I knew they were movement drills only ....that was part of the point to define it and discuss the differences. I have to go on a short trip but I had a series of other videos; going from these movement drills up the ladder to more powerful movement and control in hopes of discussing movement V budo. Alas, family issues prevail.
Dan