No Touch Throws

yahhhhh!!!! one big blow of opponents bad breath! yes, thats no touch throw.

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: Yes, it is. Tori doesn't need to have ANY skills, he will simply put hand in front of uke face, from any distance, and uke will fall down like crazy. Why study complicated aikido techniques 30 or 50 years? So any fresh beginner 5 th kyu can throw like that 6 th dan? Or 1 dan will do his randori against 10-20 attackers and throw them without touching? These are results of your approach. I think that common sense and credibility aikido as MA is lost somewhere.

From e-budo.com

Don J. Modesto wrote: ...Szczepan is a gadfly, by nature rude. But unlike other madmen we've had on these fora, he's to the point and...God love him, concise....

Welcome Szczepan to AikiWeb. Your reputation precedes you.

Ted Ehara wrote: Welcome Szczepan to AikiWeb. Your reputation precedes you.

You know, Ted, cross posting is against netiquette

Bad Ted, bad.......

Peter Rehse wrote: Well Sean grew up in the Shodokan family. He can't help but express Tomiki's views especially with regard to Judo and Aikido. It really does make a lot of sense when you read the articles and study the system.

I respect VERY much judo in many aspects, Peter. Also spirituel. I advice may ppl to cross train in judo.

But aikido isn't judo, apples are not oranges.

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: But aikido isn't judo, apples are not oranges.

Aikido and judo are not apples and oranges.
More like Cox's and Granny Smiths. One is green and shiny, one is sort of orangey red, and at the core they're pretty much identical.

Sean
x

Sean Orchard wrote: Aikido and judo are not apples and oranges. More like Cox's and Granny Smiths. One is green and shiny, one is sort of orangey red, and at the core they're pretty much identical.

This ones for Szczepan - so there.

I'll remember that Sean.

Sean Orchard wrote: Aikido and judo are not apples and oranges. More like Cox's and Granny Smiths. One is green and shiny, one is sort of orangey red, and at the core they're pretty much identical. Sean x

I'll second and drink to that, Sean. Very nicely said.

Boon

Ted Ehara wrote: From e-budo.com Welcome Szczepan to AikiWeb. Your reputation precedes you.

He's been here a long time, that's why most of us have him on our ignore lists









Just kidding

i've not heard this "soda can" story before please, if you will, tell it.

It's on the first page of this thread

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...i+ki#post89338


rgds

Hmm wrt no touch throw...

I have just watched Lord of The Ring: The Fellowship of the Ring on DVD again yesterday. In one scene Gandalf and Saruman was battling it out in The tower of Ortanc, Isengard. Gandalf was thrown repeatedly to the floor, slammed against the wall by the power of Saruman's wizadry. Can this be qualified as no touch throw on Saruman's part?

Boon.

P/S I'd vote a absolute YES that that is a classical no touch throw.

Nah Gandalf was just clumsy.

Sean Orchard wrote: Judo principle, aikido principle, same thing. Sean x

Actually, that would be Newton's Law of Physics...

ok, i don't know how all this messaging stuff works here but as far as no touch throws your all way off. first of all they do exist. second of all it is not at all what you think. no, nothing telekinetic. not,a forced duck out of the way is not a throw.
really, it's more of a leading their mind morw than they are aware they are being led and it takes skill. if you are running and grabbing for my hand and i can keep it just out of your grip and you get so focused on my hand that you don't even realizing you are going to lose your balance they you fall. other than that i have seen a good ,wel placed,kia or shout, halfway thru a technique buckle someone's knees. that was cool to see.that is it. don't look any further. it isn't there. sorry.

aikido and judo are not very much alike. they work on 2 completely different principals. if your aikido is like judo it is NOT aikido. sorry. take off the hakama and just muscle someone to the ground but don't call it aikido.!

Steven - I suggest you don't know good Judo.

Steven Rice wrote: aikido and judo are not very much alike. they work on 2 completely different principals. if your aikido is like judo it is NOT aikido. sorry. take off the hakama and just muscle someone to the ground but don't call it aikido.!

To quote Monty Python, "An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a definite proposition ... contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says."

So how are they completely different? I'm an expert in neither, but, as I understand it, aikido and judo each aim to rob an uke of stability by redirecting uke's force rather than opposing it outright. It seems to me that they'll share many principles even if they use different techniques.

Steven Rice wrote: it's more of a leading their mind morw than they are aware they are being led and it takes skill.

Hmmm....

Without going back through and reviewing all the messages myself I could be mistaken, but...

I'm fairly certain that I was not the only person in the thread to have said essentially this. I know that I said something like this early on in the thread. I feel like it was comments like mine that actually got this thread started as a spin-off from another thread.

Steve Rice wrote: aikido and judo are not very much alike. they work on 2 completely different principals.

Mike Gallo wrote: So how are they completely different? [...snip...] It seems to me that they'll share many principles even if they use different techniques.

How's this for a completely ridiculous way to look at it:

You're both right and you're both wrong.

I'm not an expert in Judo, but you don't grow up with a dad like mine (who is) and not have some understanding of how Judo works.

So, they work on exactly the same principles. You know, that Newton thing someone else mentioned. Fascinating how it keeps popping up in martial arts practice. You just can't escape physics. It's almost like it's an inherent part of the universe or something.

They look and work completely differently. This is a function of technique in applying the same fundamental principles, though, and at higher levels the differences start to become increasingly obscure.

The real difference is attitude. If you believe that Judo is not about competition first and foremost you just aren't paying attention. Aikido should never be (okay, sometimes it is anyway, but let's keep things at the level of ideals here for a moment).

You're not going to see No Touch throws in Judo, because of the competitiveness. It's difficult, off the top of my head, to explain why, but it's obvious if you ever work with a reasonably accomplished judoka. A start would be that a No Touch throw does, in fact, rely on leading your partner and in a competitive situation your partner will be - by definition - on alert for that kind of leading. This is different from the so-called "street conflict" in that the more impromptu nature of the latter tends to lead to more committed, less cautious attacks that are often actually easier to defend against (although, it's not uncommon for mistakes to be more costly, knives and stuff affect this, you know).

Would come in handy if you have to train with a nose picker, someone who sweats like a bastard or has a cold and is coughing and sneezing all the time. Let us not forget those people who do not wash their hands after going to the toilet or have been eating and come to class with sauce all over themselves. Anyone ever met someone who does all of the above?

"No touch throws"? If we are talking about the same footage (the clips called "Aikido classics" or something like that), he is walking around with his hand held up.

I haven't seen a no touch throw first hand so far...
Only on some videos with O-Sensei, people falling
all around, without him touching anything

Yeah. They call that "en randori" in Korindo. Everybody does ukemi, and Ueshiba stands in the middle, with his hand held up. Not to knock anything, but I can do that...
Sometimes people should tone down the hype a bit, really.

Willi Brix wrote: Yeah. They call that "en randori" in Korindo. Everybody does ukemi, and Ueshiba stands in the middle, with his hand held up. Not to knock anything, but I can do that... Sometimes people should tone down the hype a bit, really.

Would you mind explaining the connection between "en Randori" in Korindo Aikido and a video with Ueshiba ?

It is true that while practicing "en Randori" at some stages one can sense a technique before it happens and should choose to fall rather then let tori force him down. This is a wise behavior on Uke side for this type of practice, though not for all types of practice. Since developing sensitivity is one of the purposes of "en Randori" and once you feel a technique before it is applied, one can counter it in a flowing manner rather then use force to object to it.

But the above description has nothing to do with the concept of "No Touch Throws", Tori has every intention to perform a full technique and touch Uke, Uke decides to breakfall before the touch occurs, but Uke would have to fall from the technique if he waited a moment longer.

Amir

My head instructor, demonstrating a point to another student, threw me tenchinage a couple of times. As near as I can work out, I managed to actually catch her hands once, and I just missed once, but the outcome was so similar that the student watching saw two instances of the same throw.

I had certainly expected to get her hands and was startled to find myself on the mat without having succeeded. I had thought of no-touch tenchinage in terms of ducking or flinching, but wasn't aware of doing so here--it was all leading.

In watching Mary Heiny sensei demonstrate I felt I was seeing the same thing--the boundary between touch and no-touch versions of the same technique was so fine that I really could not tell which was which, though presumably her uke knew.

Very cool experiences, both of them.

Mary Kaye