Arm locks... really???????

My first judo sensei spent 5 or more years in Japan, right about the time Isao Okano was (at the time) the smallest person (80 kg-176lb) to win the All Japan Judo Championships. Late 1960s.. I started Judo in 1972.

Dave (my sensei) had told me that on one occasion he came across Okano in the Kodokan weight room (yes, there was one back then, can't speak for now) throwing massive amounts of steel around in bench press, squat, etc... He asked something like "I thought you didn't do weight lifting" and Okano is supposed to have replied along the lines of "I don't lift weights.. this is judo". No sense of irony, no joking around - the training was part of being all-round the best judo competitor of the day.

Hours of judo training each day.. AND weights.. AND a hard-a$$ attitude.

170 pounds seems about right. While there are many factors, and I have no scientific proof, I'd say that in my experiences a well rounded individual in that ball park tends to so very well for a number of reasons. Current modalities of training tend to follow the crossfit model and it seems to work.

What does this have to so with arm bars or IP/IT methods? I don't know.

Dan I don't believe has said these things are wrong or anything, only that they won't build the specific things that IP/IT are designed to do. In some cases he feels some things may actually be get in the way. I'd also buy that.

I think a lot of this depends on what it is that you want to do with your body. A competitive shooter doesn't need to be a Ranger or an Olympic sprinter. He needs to concentrate on the specificity of his sport. It could be that Dan's methods would assist him greatly. Same with me. As an aging BJJer, the old methods are not working well for me and I find myself adapting new ways of doing things that give me an edge or different way that may allow me to stay effective.

My point with my injury. Well, I am three days post surgery and just engaging and disengaing muscles in a big deal right now. Lifting weights.....well while that may be good for some.....think about my situation right now, is that a good thing or a bad thing? Chances are Dan, if he were here, could begin working with me today and I'd make some progress on rewiring. Frankly, I am turning more to my friends in martial arts for my rehab than I am to Certified PTs.

Not sure if I am making my point clear, but there is no one right solution to everything. What Dan does hqs been proven to enough in the business to have merit and value. So I'd be inclined to listen to what he has to say and figure out how it works for you. Dan has always been clear about integration. He has stated many times that you need to take it and figure out how to make it work for you.

Sitting on the side of the mat right now, heck, it has caused me to look hard at my future and realize that, yeah, maybe the things I have done in the past need to change.

I've always stated over the years that it is not whether in works or not....it is all about priorities and where you place them.

Walter Martindale wrote: My first judo sensei spent 5 or more years in Japan, right about the time Isao Okano was (at the time) the smallest person (80 kg-176lb) to win the All Japan Judo Championships. Late 1960s.. I started Judo in 1972. Dave (my sensei) had told me that on one occasion he came across Okano in the Kodokan weight room (yes, there was one back then, can't speak for now) throwing massive amounts of steel around in bench press, squat, etc... He asked something like "I thought you didn't do weight lifting" and Okano is supposed to have replied along the lines of "I don't lift weights.. this is judo". No sense of irony, no joking around - the training was part of being all-round the best judo competitor of the day. Hours of judo training each day.. AND weights.. AND a hard-a$$ attitude.

I would wonder if Olympic champions train that way today. We've learned a lot over the last 30 some years. Heck when I was a kid playing football it was all about no water until after practice and salt tablets.

For a young judo athlete in his prime, sure, I'd say that weight training is important to some degree. I'd be interested on what the kodokan and others actually do today. Same with sumo, I wonder.

That said, how many of us are 20 somethings looking for a short, but stellar judo career?

That is sort of my point above about what is good for one is not good for all. I've been in the military for 27 years and I have been pretty successful and extending my career and staying fit and relevant within the special ops community. At 45 I was running around the mountains of Afghanistan with young operators holding my own. Today, I have found myself training with a bunch of over the hill operators in mid to late 40s looking at staying relevant and continuing to be able to do the physical work. Usually it is an injury that takes us out.

So, we are looking for ways to train that allow us to prolong our careers and not get hurt. Not always easy, but most of us look back on some of the things we did and reflect what a waste of time it was and in some cases see how that led to the degenerative disc disease we have or how those wide grip pull ups weakened the rotator cuff.

I can tell u I train much different than I did or had sense to in my 20s.

Jason Rudolph wrote: There is another way that one may view this. Instead of arguing whether or not weight lifting will help those who choose to engage in IS, view it from the perspective of combat as a whole. Specifically whether one chooses to do IS or not we are all human and imperfect. Therefore, during combat one's techniques, IS based or not may not immediately and effectively work. Consequently, you most likely will take some hits, punches, elbows, kicks, etc and if you weight train your body may be able to withstand the blows better and thus allow you to continue the interaction. Experienced fighters from MMA to Bruce Lee have expounded on the many values of weight training, sure in moderation, but weight training.

My experience has been that weight training, or weight training type exercises, will specifically interfere with the kinds of things you're attempting to train with IS.

Now, will there come a point when weight training can be added back in? I can certainly envision it, but it's so far beyond me at this point (as it probably is for most of the folks working on this stuff) that it's not worth even considering unless I have a specific short term need for that kind of strength.

Best,

Chris

Dan Harden wrote: Hi Again Joe. I am delighted that you guys continue to believe that stronger, bigger...is the way to go. I see no advantage in trying to change your mind either. You are continually....as in thousands of years of history....proven wrong. Right up to many fights in the UFC where men with 70 lb advantages lost against jujutsu. I'm not talking about sports...you are. I have, along with others for 16 years on the net. And 1,100 people later; to include many Shihan and Menkyo and MMA and BJJers later.... Not a single one of you have ever proven our model wrong in person (not that it matters that we have to be 100% correct anyway. It's just turned out that way I would allow for failures in a model). And most of you switched and want to train it. Think of it..... All of the arguments that you.... as a collected whole have made.... have all failed in person. And you still want to debate it? Debate what? Cheers Dan

Dear Dan
Sorry to point out an obvious error in your reply to me.Where have I mentioned bigger /stronger or whatever?All I have said that any advantage of any kind[ be it I/S /pain tolerance/conditioning /speed /endurance or whatever] will have a deciding factor if the combatants are equal in every respect
If you must reply with a quote at least get the text /quote correct.Cheers, Joe.

Joe Curran wrote: Dear Dan Sorry to point out an obvious error in your reply to me.Where have I mentioned bigger /stronger or whatever?All I have said that any advantage of any kind[ be it I/S /pain tolerance/conditioning /speed /endurance or whatever] will have a deciding factor if the combatants are equal in every respect If you must reply with a quote at least get the text /quote correct.Cheers, Joe.

To piggyback - I'm not talking about using muscle in lieu of technique. Most Jujitsu arts state something to the effect of "if you are using muscle, you are doing it wrong"

With all factors being the same between two practitioners, Internal Training, endurance, martial technique, height, weight etc. How is the physically stronger one at a disadvantage? You don't have to be big or bulky to be strong.

Kevin,

Your point is clear with me. I have found amazing gains in my internal martial arts having walked away from the weight room. That was over 10 years ago. Having done it so late in my martial arts career, my body also transformed from a v shape to a pear shape.

Even that works in some ways for centering and low body leverage. But it sucks in ground work. I feel like a walrus waddling on the beach. And old injuries have come back to bite me.

Shoulders are one of them. One great lesson I learned from that injury comes from (I believe) Tohei's statemen "when entering, enter deep". That way, the shoulders (upper body) doesn't have to do the work.

I am too far gone to try weights again, I suspect. Swimming, kayaking and love making hopefully (along with my hammer and rake) will keep me trucking.

Be well,

Chris

Chris Parkerson wrote: In fact, isn't the Army Ranger's perfect model of human athletic conditioning within the 170 pound range? Muscle or fat, the heart has to pump the same amount of blood through the mass. And mass is the kiss of death on long-haul work-outs like the battlefield.....

Just like to mention that equal weight of muscle or fat is not the same. Muscle is "active" while fat is not, in that muscle is actively assisting in blood flow and activity while fat does not (except as a possible fuel source).

As for the rest of the debate, interesting...

Jim...

www.nothing-works.com

Brian Beach wrote: To piggyback - I'm not talking about using muscle in lieu of technique. Most Jujitsu arts state something to the effect of "if you are using muscle, you are doing it wrong" With all factors being the same between two practitioners, Internal Training, endurance, martial technique, height, weight etc. How is the physically stronger one at a disadvantage? You don't have to be big or bulky to be strong.

That's a fair and good question. I'd say if u are isolating all else being equal sure. Who is stronger matters. Define it though....how measured? Guy with better physique, bigger arms, can run faster?

I've found that many times I am stronger on the mat in angles and ways than bigger and younger guys that can do more pull ups etc. You might look at that and say, oh well you transitioned to technique...that's not isolating strength. I've also gassed many a weight lifter as well, but again what does that have to do with strength of conditioning...you'd say, well you are better at jiu jitsu that he.

Maybe if you had us both grab a give hanging from a bar and said the winner is the one that holds on the longest...then ,maybe we would have a contest of strength, or who can keep there legs wrapped around a body for the longest...but alas, even then, the jiu jitsu player would argue that he would never hang out that long in one position and would manage his body in such a way to rest and move and remain active...you know using all that encompasses jiu jitsu.

I think it is stupid to try and split out and isolate this stuff. I regularly beat guys 20 years younger than me that are in better shape, stronger etc. Sure, me being in better cardiac shape helps, and strength helps too, as well as my size. Consistently though I have found that what matters more than any of this is simply how good your jiu jitsu game is. I work constantly on my game and integrating things. Really my secret lately has been working the softer side of things, angles, and developing a good defensive game that allows me to attack from any position. I assume the younger, and stronger guy will jump on me hard and fight to a dominate position. I let him exert his will and game. While I begin to defend. Essentially what I do is work him outside of his comfort zone and then take control of the OODA process and never give it back. I call it old man jiu jitsu and it seems to work we'll.

Anyway, my point is, all equal, sure strength matters. But in jiu jitsu that equation and dynamics are never quite that equal or clear.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: That's a fair and good question. I'd say if u are isolating all else being equal sure. Who is stronger matters. Define it though....how measured? Guy with better physique, bigger arms, can run faster? I've found that many times I am stronger on the mat in angles and ways than bigger and younger guys that can do more pull ups etc. You might look at that and say, oh well you transitioned to technique...that's not isolating strength. I've also gassed many a weight lifter as well, but again what does that have to do with strength of conditioning...you'd say, well you are better at jiu jitsu that he. Maybe if you had us both grab a give hanging from a bar and said the winner is the one that holds on the longest...then ,maybe we would have a contest of strength, or who can keep there legs wrapped around a body for the longest...but alas, even then, the jiu jitsu player would argue that he would never hang out that long in one position and would manage his body in such a way to rest and move and remain active...you know using all that encompasses jiu jitsu. I think it is stupid to try and split out and isolate this stuff. I regularly beat guys 20 years younger than me that are in better shape, stronger etc. Sure, me being in better cardiac shape helps, and strength helps too, as well as my size. Consistently though I have found that what matters more than any of this is simply how good your jiu jitsu game is. I work constantly on my game and integrating things. Really my secret lately has been working the softer side of things, angles, and developing a good defensive game that allows me to attack from any position. I assume the younger, and stronger guy will jump on me hard and fight to a dominate position. I let him exert his will and game. While I begin to defend. Essentially what I do is work him outside of his comfort zone and then take control of the OODA process and never give it back. I call it old man jiu jitsu and it seems to work we'll. Anyway, my point is, all equal, sure strength matters. But in jiu jitsu that equation and dynamics are never quite that equal or clear.

I agree that technique trumps strength. That's why I seek out little old men that can kick my a$$. Also strength will fade as the years progress. But if it's going to fade why go from 5 to 1 when you can go from 9 to 5. I just look at it regardless how good I become, there is always someone better why not have something in reserve.

Also as was mentioned before better conditioning allows for more intense training which leads to increased skill.

...It's so easy to get lost in the words....

Jim....



www.nothing-works.com

Brian Beach wrote: I agree that technique trumps strength. That's why I seek out little old men that can kick my a$$. Also strength will fade as the years progress. But if it's going to fade why go from 5 to 1 when you can go from 9 to 5. I just look at it regardless how good I become, there is always someone better why not have something in reserve. Also as was mentioned before better conditioning allows for more intense training which leads to increased skill.

Agreed

Chris Parkerson wrote: ... I trained both hard and soft neck strengthening techniques. Neck bridges were a good part of that. Just as important were internal forms of exhaling and the consistent stretching of the fascial tissue around the throat as my partner grabbed my gi and pressed his fist laterally against my throat to the laft and then to the right..

I'm still not sure how strengthening the neck helps with choke resistance? I understand how it helps in defense (being able to tuck the chin), but I have other less than competition legal ways of raising that chin (eye gouging comes to mind). But it has been my experience that no judoka or bjjer that I have ever secured a choke on has been able to resist me for more than 2-3 seconds.

I train the squeeze all the time, I basically sit on the floor, watch tv and choke my knee. It has been my experience that with people who are new in the sport, that they don't have the squeeze strength or endurance to finish the choke and I can usually wait them out, but for anyone with a little bit of training, once that choke is sunk, I'm done. I can't think of a blue belt in bjj that I would dare let get under my chin.

In Tomiki, there are as many arm locks as there are hairs on your head---unless you're bald. Armbars/armlocks---kansetsu waza---are a great equalizer and they can be applied at any given situation. Kansetsu waza is for control. When your opponent feels the armbar, and of course you're talking to him and telling him what's going to happen if he continues his aggresion, he's going to be a little less aggressive since he doesn't want his arm broken. It's not hard to get an armbar in any attack but if the fool wants to "reach out and touch someone", then he'll pay the price. We do armbars/kansetsu waza all the time and it's amazing how fast, and effectively, someone can be humbled. I do like chokes, shime waza, too which is another great equalizer. But chokes is another subject.

Don Magee wrote: I'm still not sure how strengthening the neck helps with choke resistance? I understand how it helps in defense (being able to tuck the chin), but I have other less than competition legal ways of raising that chin (eye gouging comes to mind). But it has been my experience that no judoka or bjjer that I have ever secured a choke on has been able to resist me for more than 2-3 seconds. I train the squeeze all the time, I basically sit on the floor, watch tv and choke my knee. It has been my experience that with people who are new in the sport, that they don't have the squeeze strength or endurance to finish the choke and I can usually wait them out, but for anyone with a little bit of training, once that choke is sunk, I'm done. I can't think of a blue belt in bjj that I would dare let get under my chin.

I agree with your points. If you have trained yourself to be an anaconda, you have greater
success at choking. My proposition is not an either/or statement.
It is a mathematical one. Hal reviewed USJA authorized bouts and tallied the counts. You can do
the same: take the last 100 UFC fights. How many won by chokes? How many by knock outs?
How many by arm bars? Leg bars? Bloody mess referee decisions?
I know there are other factors as this math I suggest was not a calculus. But Hal's was. He is a
good mathematician. I am not.
I was anaconda'd by a Bando man with 20" guns at Front Sight in Pahrump, NV. I had been hired
to develop a martial arts curriculum for them and hire teachers. It was advertised in BlackBelt
magazine that Front Sight would pay a small fee to each interviewee. I was swamped with mat-
based interviews.

I gave this man my neck and he immediately dislocated my jaw. The choke was on within 2 seconds.
It took two years for my jaw to heal up. He was either nervous or extremely insensitive. But he was a great technician.

Chris Parkerson wrote: I agree with your points. If you have trained yourself to be an anaconda, you have greater success at choking. My proposition is not an either/or statement. It is a mathematical one. Hal reviewed USJA authorized bouts and tallied the counts. You can do the same: take the last 100 UFC fights. How many won by chokes? How many by knock outs? How many by arm bars? Leg bars? Bloody mess referee decisions? I know there are other factors as this math I suggest was not a calculus. But Hal's was. He is a good mathematician. I am not. I was anaconda'd by a Bando man with 20" guns at Front Sight in Pahrump, NV. I had been hired to develop a martial arts curriculum for them and hire teachers. It was advertised in BlackBelt magazine that Front Sight would pay a small fee to each interviewee. I was swamped with mat- based interviews. I gave this man my neck and he immediately dislocated my jaw. The choke was on within 2 seconds. It took two years for my jaw to heal up. He was either nervous or extremely insensitive. But he was a great technician.

I wasn't trying to debate the pros and cons of chokes in ending fights. Obviously any skilled grappler will know how to defend against submissions (which is why submissions are much more rare in mma then they were in it's birth). I was just asking about training your neck to resist choking. More directly, if that training was referring to being able to resist the effects of choking or just the ability to prevent the attacker from sinking the choke.

In my personal experience, I have seen guys with strong necks (big body builders) just as easy to choke (or as hard to choke if they were trained) as guys with pencil necks.

Don Magee wrote: I wasn't trying to debate the pros and cons of chokes in ending fights. Obviously any skilled grappler will know how to defend against submissions (which is why submissions are much more rare in mma then they were in it's birth). I was just asking about training your neck to resist choking. More directly, if that training was referring to being able to resist the effects of choking or just the ability to prevent the attacker from sinking the choke. In my personal experience, I have seen guys with strong necks (big body builders) just as easy to choke (or as hard to choke if they were trained) as guys with pencil necks.

I am sorry Don,

Yes, I agree. The strength training of my neck was more for general fighting defense. The softer training, the stretching of the fascia and the form of breathing aided in my body being able to relax and oxygenate itself under the pressures of a choke.

Does it prevent the choke? I would say it bought me time when I was attacked with chokes. What I did with that time was the critical issue.

I meant no offense in my earlier response. I can get sidetracked sometimes by the gestalt and larger context.

Be well,

Chris

Chris Parkerson wrote: I am sorry Don, Yes, I agree. The strength training of my neck was more for general fighting defense. The softer training, the stretching of the fascia and the form of breathing aided in my body being able to relax and oxygenate itself under the pressures of a choke. Does it prevent the choke? I would say it bought me time when I was attacked with chokes. What I did with that time was the critical issue. I meant no offense in my earlier response. I can get sidetracked sometimes by the gestalt and larger context. Be well, Chris

Thanks for the clarification. I agree 100% that being able to relax helps with buying you time for escapes. It's something I always try to stress to new grapplers who are tapping as soon as there is pressure on their necks. Relax, breathe, defend.

Good to see u back posting Don

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Good to see u back posting Don

Thanks, I had to take a break from martial arts for a while to focus on other things. Trying to rekindle the desire to keep working out again.

IF you do chokes properly, I don't care who you are----you will be tapping out quickly. Chokes can always be applied and pass someone out within 2-3 seconds. I have had my class learning chokes for at least 2-3 years and they are pretty good---and they still can't pass me out or tap me out. But they are getting there. In everything you do, there is technique involved---esp. when using chokes. How to apply chokes takes finnesse and know how. IF you want to learn how to choke properly, go to a judo class and learn or come to our Tampa dojo and I'll help you learn. Strengthening the neck helps somewhat but not all that much. Contrary to what most people believe, you don't squeeze a choke----you dig with your wristbone into his/her neck. Done right, uke will be tapping like a machine gun in no time!!!!

Phil Van Treese wrote: you dig with your wristbone

Styloid process of the radius?

Phil Van Treese wrote: IF you do chokes properly, I don't care who you are----you will be tapping out quickly. Chokes can always be applied and pass someone out within 2-3 seconds. I have had my class learning chokes for at least 2-3 years and they are pretty good---and they still can't pass me out or tap me out. But they are getting there. In everything you do, there is technique involved---esp. when using chokes. How to apply chokes takes finnesse and know how. IF you want to learn how to choke properly, go to a judo class and learn or come to our Tampa dojo and I'll help you learn. Strengthening the neck helps somewhat but not all that much. Contrary to what most people believe, you don't squeeze a choke----you dig with your wristbone into his/her neck. Done right, uke will be tapping like a machine gun in no time!!!!

I agree; it wasn't for nothing that Helio Gracie favoured chokes, as they're effective no matter how strong someone is - 'There are strong arms, but no strong necks.'.
I'm sure he'd know, too.

Phil Van Treese wrote: IF you do chokes properly, I don't care who you are----you will be tapping out quickly. Chokes can always be applied and pass someone out within 2-3 seconds. I have had my class learning chokes for at least 2-3 years and they are pretty good---and they still can't pass me out or tap me out. But they are getting there. In everything you do, there is technique involved---esp. when using chokes. How to apply chokes takes finnesse and know how. IF you want to learn how to choke properly, go to a judo class and learn or come to our Tampa dojo and I'll help you learn. Strengthening the neck helps somewhat but not all that much. Contrary to what most people believe, you don't squeeze a choke----you dig with your wristbone into his/her neck. Done right, uke will be tapping like a machine gun in no time!!!!

Taping or passing out? I don't care for pain compliance much, the hadaka jime I was taught in judo was great for tapping people out, but did little for taking them out. It caused intense pressure with the wrist and a lot of pain, but ultimately did little to cut off enough blood flow for the desired effect. Contrasted with the 'same' choke in bjj which used the squeeze. I wouldn't get the same immediate pain tap, but if they guy didn't tap in a few seconds he would be sleeping and asking what happened.

I want the fastest route to unconsciousness with the most control of my opponent, not the fastest route to a tap. In my experience, using the squeeze allows me the greatest amount of control (escaping requires using both hands to remove one hand from behind your head, then keeping it from going back while removing the other hand from under your neck) and requires the least amount of energy to keep engaged. I can teach anyone to do this in about 5-7 minutes and they will be able to do it everytime to anyone who lets them sink it (the real trick (the one that takes months/years/decades/lifetimes is learning how to sink it against someone who doesn't' want you to). The only issue they might have is being able to keep constant pressure for 5-10 seconds. This is where I advocate choking your knee while you watch tv.

I have many pain compliance techniques. I don't like them because the minute you let go, your back into the fight. For example, I have a "bow and arrow choke" that probably gets most of it's taps from the knee in their spine or the gi accidentally going across their face then it does from actually cutting off their blood/air supply.

To be clear, I am not saying you are advocating pain compliance, perhaps you know a way to get quick and effective unconsciousness with your wrists. I can only speak to personal experience and I have trained with what I feel to be very top level judo and bjj players. This is probably a matter of body type, skill, position, and personal preference.

I like the "starfish" maneuver. Not around too much these days, but you end up having a leg figure four Juji and a one handed choke that pops the head like a pimple. And your are positioned behind uke so that he cannot respond in any effective manner. Why not do submission and choke....

Chris