Ki ball of energy

I see a lot of clutter...

but at least we are talking, and exchanging some interesting thoughts for a change ... I like it.

For Jorgen in Estonia:

Yeah, the world is flat ... depending on how distant you look? Arms length from your body, or relative area surveyed by your vision allows for perception of that area, doesn't it?

Which is kind of like the perception of healing hands, or what seems to be the ability to generate bioelectric energy and use this energy in other ways which seems to be the interpretation of chi/KI?

I guess that would encompass every single mechanical movement of the body, as without use of it the body would not move at all?

The best interpretation, and funny story, was the moving of a salt shaker to demonstate KI by picking it up and moving it across the table. It is something we can all do, but never associate it Ki, as it takes no special powers, no comic book hero? We all have Ki because we live, we move, cool!

Just because Ki society has Ki in the name, no offense here, doesn't mean there are not other places to look and learn about ki? Take the salt shaker lesson?

Life is like that though, the simple science of our everyday lives is taken for granted when described in unknown terms ... how is your ki today (you inner strength)... how is your Kung Fu (hard work) today?

How wide is your perception?

As for Peter and Williams thoughts:

Wow guys!

I didn't want to go there myself (because of the browbeating I have taken of late) but I was hoping someone else would.

Funny thing about science, first the phenonmenon then the science. (hopefully that statement won't come back to bite me with the chicken or the egg first arguement?)

I don't think we have the science, yet. We should work on this KI/Chi thing a little more and get some science, shouldn't we?

I am just a poor dumb technician who fixes things, observes, and makes notes ... so some of the computer language and more technical aspects of how certain things work elude me, but if I use something that works again and again ... there must be something there, eh?

Since I can't work full time, I usually have the radio or television on in the backround.

The other day, the learning channel was doing a special about hypnotizm and pain. They had monitors and scans with brain responses on a monitor, and you know what? The brain registered pain when the subjects felt pain, and the brain registered pain when they didn't feel pain!

Even though the subjects were hypnotized into believing there was no pain, the brain still recieved the same signals but the patients claimed not to feel the pain. The patients, also claimed, not to feel the pain even though the machine said it should be there.

You want to talk about weird science?

So with this, and hundreds of other scientific evidence, or nonevidence from contrary scientific test results without conclusions, I would say science has a long way to go to proving phenonmenon. It will happen, someday, but today ain't the day.

It would be interesting when we finally stumble upon the right type of machine or machines that do?

Don't go running naked through the streets when you yelling Eureka, but then again, not everybody can be scientists either?

Makes Aikido more interesting to know we can't explain everything ... like Ki formed into balls?

I said the previous one was my last post on this thread but...

I liked the story about moving the salt. Actually that was what I was quite much talking about before. No need to think on it Just live it (using the knowledge you already have)

Today's doka of O'Sensei:
Aiki!
A way so difficult to analyse.
(But one needs only to) follow
The natural rotations of the
Heavens.

- Morihei Ueshiba

Well that covers it quite much as well. Another thing: "Just do it!" (Nike tm)

Anyway... just correcting some mistakes:

The thing about cats seeing stuff: That was taken from the world famous writer Terry Pratchett's book. No truth behind that. Pure fantasy. BTW - cats can see quite much enough the basic colours although very few variations.

To Bruce:
The thing about Earth being flat... I didn't mean how you looked... there just is an existential philosophy thing which claims that world is whatever we make of it - if most of us start believing that horses can fly - they will. So by that theory the Earth WAS flat before the other theory expanded.

All for now.

Jorgen
Estonian Aikikai
Rivet Sportsclub

Originally posted by Bruce Baker Yeah, the world is flat ... depending on how distant you look? Arms length from your body, or relative area surveyed by your vision allows for perception of that area, doesn't it? Which is kind of like the perception of healing hands, or what seems to be the ability to generate bioelectric energy and use this energy in other ways which seems to be the interpretation of chi/KI?

Ad hoc argument as well as argumentum ad ignorantiam.

I am just a poor dumb technician who fixes things, observes, and makes notes ... so some of the computer language and more technical aspects of how certain things work elude me, but if I use something that works again and again ... there must be something there, eh?

Oh, yes. When I push on my gas pedal, it squishes the tail of a tiger (I'm sure you've seen it in the TV commercials where the tiger jumps into the car engine compartment?) which lets out a large "growl!". The sound scares all of the little gremlins which are usually sleeping in the tires, causing them to try to run away. This, in turn, makes the car go forward.

Yup. Since I use my gas pedal all the time, my explanation must be true.

In other words: Non sequitor as well as non causa pro causa.

So with this, and hundreds of other scientific evidence, or nonevidence from contrary scientific test results without conclusions, I would say science has a long way to go to proving phenonmenon. It will happen, someday, but today ain't the day.

Hypostatization.

Originally posted by William As someone put it extremely succinctly, 'Absence of proof is not proof of absence'.

It is rather hard to prove something doesn't exist. Try being an Atheist for kicks. The problem is that we have an absolute burden of proof. In other words, we have to disprove every single possibility, whereas a believer only needs to believe and have any possibility (even made up one's) to be right. For instance, carbon dating works and it works quite well. However, there are flaws with it depending on the method and the material measured. When used correctly they do a pretty good job of proving that the earth is older than bible thumpers claim. However, hard core bible thumpers glom onto the problems when used incorrectly and use that as proof for their case. In other words, they need no proof and your proof must be perfect.

But your statement above is not entirely accurate. Psychometrics measure immaterial mental constructs, by carefully defining the construct and using statistical methods to correlate its existance to a measurable phenomenon. The first step would be to operationally define Ki, develop an instrument, and link it to a series of likely measurable phenomenon, then validate the results through statistical method. I'm not aware of anyone having done this yet, but I am open to correction. If this is done according to scientific method, then Science will have quantified Ki. As for asking Science to demonstrate the existance of Ki, thats laughable. Thats like asking Scientists to demonstrate the existance of Life. It already exists, it doesn't need to be demonstrated, merely defined and quantified.

You should be able to easily measure ki, or more accurately, the effects of ki. If you do ki healing then it has to affect the body in some measurable way. If you throw someone into the air with ki then there is a measurable force at work which should work on inanimate objects but for some reason never does. If you can weight your body down then we ought to be able to put you on a scale and measure the increase in weight or measure why you are harder to lift. These are very doable things. If not today then tomorrow. We're a lot better at this than some people think and worse than some other's think.

On the flat Earth bit. It was fairly common knowledge that the Earth was not flat when Columbus hopped on his boat. That is another happy myth. A good discussion can be found here:

http://www.sfu.ca/philosophy/swartz/flat_earth.htm

Sorry for this brief divergence from the thread topic.

Erik, calling a christian a "Bible thumper" is kinda' derogatory; like calling a Sikh a "raghead" or an African American a "spook". I don't think you would use those terms normally when referring to such people (I know I wouldn't). Please extend the same courtesy to christians.

(P.S. It's very likely, given what science indicates, that God created the Earth pre-aged.)


Mark Mueller:

Originally posted by Jonathan Sorry for this brief divergence from the thread topic.

Ditto.

Erik, calling a christian a "Bible thumper" is kinda' derogatory; like calling a Sikh a "raghead" or an African American a "spook". I don't think you would use those terms normally when referring to such people (I know I wouldn't). Please extend the same courtesy to christians.

Yes, I'm a christian and I find the term rather disagreeable.(Not all christians might.)

(P.S. It's very likely, given what science indicates, that God created the Earth pre-aged.)

The bible never states how old the earth is so I don't see how anyone would dispute the findings of carbon dating by using the bible.
It's meant as a spiritual guide not as a history lesson. I can't imagine why God created it pre-aged, what's a few million years more or less to him?

Originally posted by Jonathan Erik, calling a christian a "Bible thumper" is kinda' derogatory; like calling a Sikh a "raghead" or an African American a "spook". I don't think you would use those terms normally when referring to such people (I know I wouldn't). Please extend the same courtesy to christians.

Well, believe it or not, I don't see it that way at all. I find some Christians quite reasonable and other's I find to be:

From Merriam Webster's online dictionary:

Main Entry: Bi·ble-thump·er
Function: noun
Date: 1937
an overzealous proponent of Christian fundamentalism

By the way, they didn't have any entries for spook or raghead which are words I would never use. So you see, I was referring to a certain type of individual, or to my mind, behavior as in thumping on the bible. Anyways, next time I'll just say "an overzealous proponent of Christian fundamentalism" which is what I meant.

Originally posted by Greg Jennings Well, that pretty much tells me what I wanted to know! Sincerely,

Well I've not met ALL Iwama students and instructors... the ones I've met are sandan through rokyudan, either spent years as Iwama deschi, or are longtime US students of those that did. Now one of those senseis was once the student chosen to accompany Saito Sensei on several important overseas tours, and at every Saito Sensei seminar I've attended Saito Sensei himself brought the sensei in question over to sit with him, making others move, but I supposeI could have misunderstood that sensei when he told me what the Iwama viewpoint on these issue is (I doubt the sensei himself would be mistaken, he is clearly too close).

Of course, as Iwama dojos are more and more removed from actual closeness to Saito Sensei, I think certain viewpoints and approaches may vary. But the ones very close to the source of origin are pretty consistent in view( I think it is difficult for those very close to the source to consider anything other than exact copy tranmission). And it is not a wrong one, just a characteristic one.

Originally posted by Erik Well, believe it or not, I don't see it that way at all. I find some Christians quite reasonable and other's I find to be: From Merriam Webster's online dictionary: Main Entry: Bi·ble-thump·er Function: noun Date: 1937 an overzealous proponent of Christian fundamentalism By the way, they didn't have any entries for spook or raghead which are words I would never use. So you see, I was referring to a certain type of individual, or to my mind, behavior as in thumping on the bible. Anyways, next time I'll just say "an overzealous proponent of Christian fundamentalism" which is what I meant.

Well this is good, I just finish my post and yours pops up immediately afterwards, I wouldn't have bothered with part of mine had I read this first. Still, that term is often applied to any christian at all and is usually meant to be demeaning.

To get back to the topic, I would still like to know what is the purpose of trying to make a ki ball.
I am also curious as to why some people want proof of the existence of ki. If you want to explore the possibilities, explore, I imagine the discovery process will teach alot regardless of whether you end up believing in ki or not. Why the quest for proof?

Originally posted by Kat.C Well this is good, I just finish my post and yours pops up immediately afterwards, I wouldn't have bothered with part of mine had I read this first. Still, that term is often applied to any christian at all and is usually meant to be demeaning. To get back to the topic, I would still like to know what is the purpose of trying to make a ki ball. I am also curious as to why some people want proof of the existence of ki. If you want to explore the possibilities, explore, I imagine the discovery process will teach alot regardless of whether you end up believing in ki or not. Why the quest for proof?

I just reread my post and it sounded as if I was critisizing those who want proof and that wasn't my intent, just wondering why you want proof and what sort, proof for yourself or proof to convince others?

Originally posted by Kat.C SNIP To get back to the topic, I would still like to know what is the purpose of trying to make a ki ball. I am also curious as to why some people want proof of the existence of ki. If you want to explore the possibilities, explore, I imagine the discovery process will teach alot regardless of whether you end up believing in ki or not. Why the quest for proof?

Why try to explain ki? Because we are, all of us, human. Not ants or termites or any other organism that is doomed to operate on instinct. We have minds. Why wouldn't we want to understand every phenomenon of our universe?

Originally posted by Kat.C Well this is good, I just finish my post and yours pops up immediately afterwards, I wouldn't have bothered with part of mine had I read this first. Still, that term is often applied to any christian at all and is usually meant to be demeaning.

I'm a pretty literal guy in most ways. A friend of mine calls me the damndest Libertarian he's ever met. I deny this because no party represents my thoughts adequately. Don't see how they can because I can almost always see both sides to an issue.

Since we are post-stomping each other, I'll add why I would want proof.

I talk a lot about the unbendable arm these days because I think there's good stuff there. To me the unbendable arm is simply a more effective use of muscle. It wasn't always that way though. When I started I got the full-blown shooting ki out the arm explanation. I tried like crazy to use ki and it pretty much worked. The explanation produces the desired result within it's given context. However it leads in two iffy directions.

First, if I'd have understood the muscle aspect I could have applied it more easily. It's really easy to think in terms of muscle because it's concrete. It's really hard to think in terms of flowing ki because it's intangible. As such, the explanation is really much less usable and made that aspect of using the body much harder for me to apply.

Second, the unbendable arm, as it's explained in most places implies ki or such exists. It's assumptive based on the exercise. Maybe it does, maybe not but since the explanation is there and there's evidence (the unbendable arm) then maybe all the rest exists too. One thing worked because of ki, therefore ki is real. They say if you use ki you can something else (throw from 10 feet away), therefore you can. So, we go from a simple exercise with a simple explanation, to throwing people from 10' feet away to curing cancer because we went with the wrong explanation and believed it. The evidence for one implies that there is truth for another.

It's why I'm so adamant about the subject. While it's mostly harmless, it really can be hurtful in certain situations.

Damn, I've got to get busy again. Too much posting.

Originally posted by Steve Why try to explain ki? Because we are, all of us, human. Not ants or termites or any other organism that is doomed to operate on instinct. We have minds. Why wouldn't we want to understand every phenomenon of our universe?

I guess I didn't phrase my question properly, I understand why one would want to explore the different possibilities of ki, I was just kind of wondering about the different reasons people wanted proof that's all. Trying to learn more about ki is bound to teach you stuff, even if it turns out that ki doesn't exist.
Anyways it's not a major issue, I was just mildly curious.

Originally posted by Jonathan Erik, calling a christian a "Bible thumper" is kinda' derogatory;

Strange - I didn't get the impression that Erik was including all Christians in his statement.

Have heard enough practicing Christians refer to extreme fundamentalists as Bible thumpers.

As to Kat's question - it's not so much as a need for proof as an attempt to understand. Scientists generally have no problem taking something on faith alone however it might be said we tend to be more picky where we place our faith.

If someone tells me that this is the mystical Ki - I want to know if it can be described in physical terms including if it is a hoax. If not - well then I examine if I wish to believe or not.

Originally posted by Erik Since we are post-stomping each other, I'll add why I would want proof. I talk a lot about the unbendable arm these days because I think there's good stuff there. To me the unbendable arm is simply a more effective use of muscle. It wasn't always that way though. When I started I got the full-blown shooting ki out the arm explanation. I tried like crazy to use ki and it pretty much worked. The explanation produces the desired result within it's given context. However it leads in two iffy directions. First, if I'd have understood the muscle aspect I could have applied it more easily. It's really easy to think in terms of muscle because it's concrete. It's really hard to think in terms of flowing ki because it's intangible. As such, the explanation is really much less usable and made that aspect of using the body much harder for me to apply. Second, the unbendable arm, as it's explained in most places implies ki or such exists. It's assumptive based on the exercise. Maybe it does, maybe not but since the explanation is there and there's evidence (the unbendable arm) then maybe all the rest exists too. One thing worked because of ki, therefore ki is real. They say if you use ki you can something else (throw from 10 feet away), therefore you can. So, we go from a simple exercise with a simple explanation, to throwing people from 10' feet away to curing cancer because we went with the wrong explanation and believed it. The evidence for one implies that there is truth for another. It's why I'm so adamant about the subject. While it's mostly harmless, it really can be hurtful in certain situations.

Yes I agree with you, such blind faith in ki could cause quite a bit of harm. I think of it as just kind of an energy within oneself (when I think of it at all). I certainly don't believe it could be used to cure cancer or other health problems though.
Nor did I believe the unbendable arm thing either when I read about it. (That is, not the ki explanation.)


You know Erik, from your other posts I never would have guessed you to be the gullible type

Originally posted by ca Well I've not met ALL Iwama students and instructors... <SNIP> what the Iwama viewpoint on these issue is (I doubt the sensei himself would be mistaken, he is clearly too close). <SNIP> And it is not a wrong one, just a characteristic one.

I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion stated above.

I'm disagreeing with your subtle extrapolation of your experience with Iwama-oriented instructors onto the entire population.

Specifically, I take umbrage with the embedded statement "b. that the ONLY way to good Aikido is via hard static training..." .

NONE of the Iwama instructors I've met, from Saito Sensei on down, have espoused that attitude. They may believe the Iwama method is good. They may believe it's the best way for them personally. But NONE that I've met have stated the opinion you gave.

Yes, I've run into a slew of lower-ranking mudansha that held that myopic view. I guess that they're entitled to their opinion even if it is ethnocentric, elitest and, if you'll pardon me being harsh, just plain stupid.

I'll wind up the whole deal and never speak of this again with one rather long quote:

LET IT BE When I find myself in times of trouble. Mother Mary comes to me Speaking words of wisdom, let it be. And in my hour of darkness She is standing right in front of me. Speaking words of wisdom, let it be. Let it be, let it be. Whisper words of wisdom, let it be. And when the broken hearted people. Living in the world agree, There will be an answer, let it be. For though they may be parted there is. Still a chance that they will see. There will be an answer, let it be. Let it be, let it be. Yeah. There will be an answer, let it be. And when the night is cloudy. There is still a light that shines on me, Shine on until tomorrow, let it be. I wake up to the sound of music. Mother Mary comes to me. Speaking words of wisdom, let it be. Let it be, let it be. There will be an answer, let it be.Let it be, let it be, Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.

Best Regards,

Originally posted by Kat.C Yes I agree with you, such blind faith in ki could cause quite a bit of harm. I think of it as just kind of an energy within oneself (when I think of it at all). I certainly don't believe it could be used to cure cancer or other health problems though.

This guy does.

http://www.ryokukai.com/articles/radio_interview.htm

You know Erik, from your other posts I never would have guessed you to be the gullible type.

Not gullible. I just like to challenge conventional thinking and so I went hard-core alternative as my alternative to conventional thinking. When I'm wrong I like to be really wrong. I've wallowed in a lot of it.

The good news is that we wind up the best skeptics.



And yeah, I was gullible.

This

was

supposed

to

be

a

visualization

exercise.

I see some visualization is not to visualize, and some responders are so intent on the responded content they diverge ....

To return to subject.

How is the activation of blood flowing, warmth to the skin, and createing a warm fuzzy ball of warmth between your hands so incredible?

We have argued about Ki, which basically is some chemical exchange in the human body that we say or call "Life."

We, at least, have simplified a complex subject into a simple term all people can understand ... that is one on the chalkboard for us, wahoo!

I use the strength of my life, my Ki, to live and move my body.

On the other hand ...

I search for the other phenonmenon that appear with this life.

Nothing spectacular. Nothing out of the ordinary, until you consider how extraordinary life is?

As for religious thought about the origins of the earth or universe being here before the bible or religion ... beyond the narrow understanding of those who would believe less time has elapsed than reality and proven science has ascertained ?

Humanity creates its own religious beliefs.

If you remember that the ultimate goal of the universe is energy that becomes mass, and mass trying to become energy with various levels and combinations between of mass and matter, we have a perfectly feasable area to encompass all religions and all beliefs > maybe even a place to get the bodys meditative juices flowing and make warm fuzzy ki balls from life energy?

Hey, we have all kinds of physical training, mental training, and uses of religion with meditation, sometimes called prayer or used in the form of prayer, so why not using the biochemical reactions of the body that many times are called life or KI?

Use it ... or lose it.


Quotes by O'Sensei aren't always clear either.

They too have to do with educational arguements in the moot court?

(Maybe I should have posed this question to the psychic network? They would have, at least, asked about Aikido, what is that?)


Actually, this is a meditation practice with some beneficial physical/mental training benefits.

Has your training or search encountered anything simular?

The thread about Ki balls of energy basically came up with KI/Chi being the energy of each persons body that creates life/movement.

It simplifies the fantasy factor to know that each moment of life is the Ki/chi, from thinking to putting on your clothes you are using ki/chi.

How much of the electrical energy generated in the body in associated with the mistaken fantasy as opposed to actually feeling a spark from another person, or effectiveness of doing Aikido techniques in a particular form because it is enhanced by the energy or pain aspect of ki/chi exchange?

Or, in your learning to do ikkyo or nikkyo does correct form act as the set up to using ki/chi as an enhancement to Aikido's effectiveness?

You should read Dragonball Z and Ki by rei to call you back from the deep end.

If we were just judging by aikido styles, you're suppose to be the sensible ones and I'm suppose to be the mystic. What's going on here?!!

I guess the simple way to do this exercise is being able to send energy, or heat to your hands.

If you can warm the area between your hands, with palms cupped as if holding a ball, and then create warmth between your hands ...

Well ...

If you get to that point, you can try to grab that ball of warmth and see if you can use your own energy to take away your buddys ball of warmth?

If you can, you will know what this is all about.

If you can't, you will get a joke on your buddy.

Either way, at least you will learn to warm your hands? That has to be worth something on a cold day?

Re: round Earth:

What about the quantum physics theory that the universe only exists because we percieve it?

(just had to throw a wrench in)

So I broke my rib and have been unable to attend class for some time. So I get on here and read about "Ki balls". I think, "Great! I can still go home and train...".

[fictional]

So I'm sitting at home creating kill balls and I knocked over my wife's favorite Tiffany lamp ($5,000) across the room. My use of ki energy for destructive purposes brought more destruction (from my wife).

So after much meditation, I figured that sending ki balls outward from my person serves no purpose, I retracted my ki back into my hands. I then took my ki energized hands and mended the lamp and brought harmony back into my life.

[/fictional]

[Irrational babbling in the mindset of the mystical]
If you read all the stories, the 'magical' ki feats perpetrated by ki masters all take years off one's life. Ki can be described as your 'life force' or spirit. So by using that energy in a way that converts it into physical energy, it is no longer a part of oneself. Some say that psychics are people who are able to absorb the ki energy that exists naturally or is given off by people. Thus they can perform 'ki' feats without using internal energy. Ki healers do not use ki to heal, they use ki to empathize and connect with a persons ki to heal the inner self and facilitate self healing. Young children and animals are very attuned to ki.
They will react to your inner intentions and thoughts, even when not outwardly shown.
[/Irrational babbling in the mindset of the mystical]

The previous was not a post of my personal views, but more of a look at one side of the coin.

I personally believe that as a people, we humans are just starting to come out from under the trappings of religion (not faith) to find the true meaning of life and existence. I believe we are also starting to realize science for what it is and what it lacks. We must have both to exist.

P.S. I'm in a wierd mood today... haven't had any training in a while...

since most people here are hell bent on the nonexistence of ki, why not change the name of aikido to just aido? way to sh*t in my cereal, guys. one of the reasons i'm interested in aikido is the ki involved. that being said streetfighter 2's chi/ki ball is nothing but a video game awesomeness, but kiatsu, is part of shin shin toitsu aikido. and is an option (in my mind at least) of how to heal loved ones, even if it is does drain years off my life. friends, i've seen many strange things in this life. things that are far stranger than ki. and even if ki is nothing more than heat or the power of positive thinking (which i doubt) that's better than nothing. just a young dumb mystic, i guess. i'll leave you all with a bad religion song lyric "hey man of science with your perfect rules of measure, can you improve this place with the data the you gather?"

The issue typically is not so much that KI is non-existent, but what exactly KI is and how to you measure of quantify it.

Seems as if no two people will define it the same.

What is your definition?