confusing techniques between styles

Don Magee wrote: But instead I put aside my notions of what I think I know, and I just do what I'm asked to do. I keep 100% concentration on the purpose of the drill.

I think this is extremely important - I also think that if people have this attitude - even those that don't crosstrain - they're going to improve much more quickly.

Of course, another part of it is later doing some critical analysis/reflection on you're practice, but trying to do that and learn it at the same time on the mat can create quite a collision.

Mark Uttech wrote: The simplest answer is to stick with one art for ten years before checking out another. I did that with aikido and after ten years, the answer was "try ten more". In gassho, Mark

and

Joseph Madden wrote: Mark is absolutely right. If you have gained enough proficiency in one art after a prolonged period than absolutely train in another art. But not before.

I disagree with both of these opinions. Don and Budd had better suggestions, IMO.

Why? Ueshiba didn't take ten years to study one art before going to another. Seemed to work okay for him. Several of my seniors didn't have ten years in one art before studying another. Seems to work out good for them. There are lots of examples of martial artists, past and present, who studied more than one art at a time. How else could Draeger get so many black belts?

Actually, I find it kind of funny to propose such a suggestion to a living Draeger. Think about it. It'd go something like this ... Hey, Donn, buddy. You went about it the wrong way. You're supposed to study one art for ten years and then go to another. So, your twenty black belts (I'm guessing here on the number) should take you 200 years.

Doesn't mean you can't stick with one art for a lifetime. But if you're looking at cross training ... then look to those who did it and succeeded. To those who fully implemented that curriculum. Detail their lives (if past) and ask them (if living) their opinion.

IMO,
Mark

Mark Murray wrote: There are lots of examples of martial artists, past and present, who studied more than one art at a time.

Mark, you're taking the mystique out of the martial arts!

My take on confusing techniques is that you just need to practice more and focus on principles.

Principles reveal the techniques and eliminate confusion.. unless, as happens occasionally, what is being taught violates principles and is not actually 'correct' technique.

Regards,

For me, the most confusing thing was doing different styles of aikido. I started off doing ‘Aikikai style' aikido (although not part of the Aikikai) in the U.K., moved to Japan and suddenly found that I couldn't find or get into any dojo doing the same kind of thing (I was in Hamamatsu). So I ended up doing Seifukai (that's Yoseikan) and got really muddled. I did a bit of Shodokan and Tesshinkai which seemed to fit together better, but the Seifukai that I was mainly doing was sometimes in complete contrast to what I'd done before. I couldn't even sit in seiza without getting a "dame". I arrived back in the UK with both styles mixed together -- which didn't usually work out: for example, I'd have my feet positioned the Seifukai way, do an Aikikai-type movement and practically walk into a fist. In the short term, it was a pain although I guess now I'm starting to appreciate the extra perspective.

Brian Dewey wrote: ..... I'm at the point where I need to decide if I want to continue with Shotokan once the summer course ends...or re-focus solely upon my Aikido. If anything, the most valuable skills I have taken from Shotokan are the strong striking techniques, as well as being able to get my kicks above knee-level!

Well, whether you continue in Shotokan (or Aikido or anything for that matter) is up to you. Do you like it? That's the most important question. If you don't likeit, if you don't have some enjoyment out of going, there's no point; you won't learn as well if you conisder it a chore.

As to how to proceed with both arts, I will once again buck the tide and suggest compartmentalization --- keeping them separate as much as possible. If you think about both at once, that's where "confusion" sets in (in my case, feeling like my head is going to explode) but thinking about them separately helps that. The best time to do that is when you train on your own, which you should do at least once a week. You don't need a huge workout -- a half hour should do it -- but you should do it regularly. Cycle through some things from Shotokan, thinking about nothing else and focusing on the details. Then go through Aikido, again foucusing on details. It is probably the only time you will because in class, you have to listen to the instructor and pay attention to what your training partner is doing.

Of course, you can't help if things are in yur muscle memory and something pops out. But IMHO it makes life easier if you think about them separately.

Don Magee wrote: I never think "Now I'm training judo" or "Now I'm training aikido", or "Now I'm training Mauy Thai", etc. I simply think "Now I am training.". Don't focus on the techniques as absolutes. When you think of them as absolutes then you try to relate them back to your other experiences. You are better off just focusing on the intent and purpse of the drill. This will keep you in proper form for the drill. It took me a little while to understand this. I used to look at it as techniques, and I would get these wierd issues like "Why would you bother with that aikido technique, if a guy was as stupid as that you would just throw him with tai otoshi then make all these complicated movements". However, I soon realized my aikido teacher was saying "Why would you put all this effort into using a judo throw, when you can just move like this". I realized the truth is neither. When I realized this I stopped focusing on what was the aikido way, or what was the bjj way, or the mauy thai way. I focused on the purpose of the drill, and just kept my mind on that. Then later I look at how that differs from my current ideas on what works, and then play with it in sparing. But I don't think about it as an aikido technique, or a judo technique, etc. It might make me a worse aikidoka, but I feel it makes me a stronger fighter.

After reading this earlier in the week, and then going to both Shotokan and Aikido with your comments in mind...it really made a difference in the positive. Thanks for your insight, Don!

Lynn Seiser wrote: IMHO, bring your mindfulness (awareness and attention) to the technique you are currently doing. What is the principle and proficiency you are trying to develop? I try to keep the arts separate and let them integrate themselves later.

This also helped me in my training this week, along with Don's comments. That whole "mindfulness" thing I'm still working on.

Don Magee wrote: I really don't think you can properly cross train without sparing somewhere where you can use all the arts you have learned. But first you have to learn to play within the 'rules' of each art. If you are unable to do that, then you are unable to cross train.

I can see your logic here, based upon what you've posted in this thread and others. It's given me food for thought. I'm seriously considering it.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: Generally, I agree with Don -- in free sparring under a less competition-oriented ruleset, you should use whatever you can do without hurting someone. Don't fall into the trap of believing you have some uber-deadly aikido powers that you can't practice for fear of crippling your partner. Just take it easy, and know your limits.

Yes, thanks for the reality check. I'm very well aware that my Aikido is not "uber-deadly"....hence my desire to continue cross-training in earnest. I have no illusions (or is it delusions?) of martial greatness or fighting prowness. Rather, I just simply want to be confident of my ability to defend myself if the need arises. Per yours and Don's comments, this will undoubtedly eventually lead me to some form of freeform sparring...which I am now seriously considering.

Michael Gallagher wrote: Well, whether you continue in Shotokan (or Aikido or anything for that matter) is up to you. Do you like it? That's the most important question. If you don't likeit, if you don't have some enjoyment out of going, there's no point; you won't learn as well if you conisder it a chore. As to how to proceed with both arts, I will once again buck the tide and suggest compartmentalization --- keeping them separate as much as possible. If you think about both at once, that's where "confusion" sets in (in my case, feeling like my head is going to explode) but thinking about them separately helps that. The best time to do that is when you train on your own, which you should do at least once a week...

Done and done. I think your concept of "compartmentalization" is also helpful. Now that I have developed the basics of Shotokan, I have begun incorporating it into my solo workout routine. Recently invested in a heavybag to practice my strikes. Perform the Shotokan katas I've learnt thus far. Do my Aiki Taiso (sans breakfalls), then Aiki Kengi with my bokken. Several sets of each at a progressively faster pace. It's a start.

SeiserL wrote: IMHO, bring your mindfulness (awareness and attention) to the technique you are currently doing. What is the principle and proficiency you are trying to develop? I try to keep the arts separate and let them integrate themselves later.

Mindfull advise. Wise to consider Mr. Seisers oppinion.

just to give my thoughts...

in the dojo i trained at, the instructor would not allow someone to begin training at 2 places at the same time. i think they ran into that same problem that people would start 2 different styles at the same time...and then confuse the two. i've always felt that it is a good idea to concentrate on one art first...until you feel you have a comfortable base...(say shodan, although it could at any point really that you felt comfortable)...and then move on to something that can help out.
for example, i absolutely love ground fighting...i don't get that with aikido....but i didn't concentrate on it at all until i felt more comfortable with my foundation in aikido.
becoming a martial artist is something personal...it takes alot of time and a lot of dedication....and it is something very much worth the while for those of us willing to put forth the effort. so my advice would be to do what is comfortable to you...and ask your instructor for his advice...

good luck and i hope you enjoy all your training!!!!