Aikido or Judo, which is more of a path or"way".

As they stand today, which art do you believe has stayed more true to its original intentions as being a "way"?

An acorn grows to a tree but the tree has many different branches and as the sun rises and falls each will enjoy their share of the sun.

Go to the kodokan or hombu dojo and each sensei has a different style. Each practicioner whom trains earnestly follows a true way to them.

James Wyatt wrote: An acorn grows to a tree but the tree has many different branches and as the sun rises and falls each will enjoy their share of the sun. Go to the kodokan or hombu dojo and each sensei has a different style. Each practicioner whom trains earnestly follows a true way to them.

More artsy then I'd say it, but nice post James.

James Wyatt wrote: An acorn grows to a tree but the tree has many different branches and as the sun rises and falls each will enjoy their share of the sun. Go to the kodokan or hombu dojo and each sensei has a different style. Each practicioner whom trains earnestly follows a true way to them.

Very well said James.

Collectively, I don't think that question is answerable really.

Judo, I believe, has done a better job at codifying and formalizing the curriculum. Also because much of judo is based on Sport/Competition (Olympic Rules) there is some what of a basis for measure.

Aikido on the other hand is much more interpretive in nature. Each Uschi Deshi for example studied at different points and time and toook away different lessons and focuses out of their studies. So aikido has a wide range of what is considered "Aikido".

Each will have it's critics. Many will say, for instance, the BJJ or Gracie Jiu Jitsu is closer to what Kano intended Judo to be.

You get similar discussions on the different aikido organizations too.

However, I think, that it is really difficult to say which one is closer to it's roots. How would you measure that? We'd have to agree on the criteria for measuring it first!

Ahhhh that pesky human ego is at it again....

Trying to seperate the universe into absolutes...

Might well ask "Chocolate or Vanilla... Which flavor better describes Ice Cream?"

Yesssss The Dreaded ICE CREAM KOAN!!!!

William Hazen

or which does a better job for construction...a hammer or a saw?

I'm going to pick at the use of the word "way". Just what does that mean, anyway? And can something you do for an hour four times a week be considered a "way"?

(and now we'll get the flood of posts of people talking about how they use aikido to ride the subway and order a burrito and send email...sorry, not buying it, unless you can show me a lot more than people have done heretofore when making such claims)

Mary Malmros wrote: I'm going to pick at the use of the word "way". Just what does that mean, anyway? And can something you do for an hour four times a week be considered a "way"? (and now we'll get the flood of posts of people talking about how they use aikido to ride the subway and order a burrito and send email...sorry, not buying it, unless you can show me a lot more than people have done heretofore when making such claims)

If you spent eight hours a day in the dojo every day it wouldn't be a way either because you'd never have time to put it into practical use.
I wouldn't say I use Aikido every day, but certainly I'm concious of the fact that the values and ways of thinking imparted by my study of budo are with me 24/7, they're part of my identity or umm, spirit.
I may only physically practice for three or four times a week but all day every day I'm trying to bring myself into line with the budo ideal.

The test for martial arts is how you conduct yourself day to day, do you conduct yourself as a budoka? Or is your mindset still that of an untrained person?

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Collectively, I don't think that question is answerable really. Judo, I believe, has done a better job at codifying and formalizing the curriculum. Also because much of judo is based on Sport/Competition (Olympic Rules) there is some what of a basis for measure. Aikido on the other hand is much more interpretive in nature. Each Uschi Deshi for example studied at different points and time and toook away different lessons and focuses out of their studies. So aikido has a wide range of what is considered "Aikido". Each will have it's critics. Many will say, for instance, the BJJ or Gracie Jiu Jitsu is closer to what Kano intended Judo to be. You get similar discussions on the different aikido organizations too. However, I think, that it is really difficult to say which one is closer to it's roots. How would you measure that? We'd have to agree on the criteria for measuring it first!

Sorry Kevin, but i will have to strongly disagree with your opinion of BJJ being more of what Jigoro Kano wanted in terms of his art. If you look at BJJ, and i know you train in it, but if you look at it honestly it has no practical sense what so ever unless you are in an octagon, or a one on one situation, the ground is no place to be if you can avoid it, and Judo's emphasis while having ground techniques has always been on throws, where as BJJ is severely lacking in the throws department, trust me i know i have trained in all three arts Aikido Judo and BJJ.

As a matter of fact though, i believe that Kano would be disapointed with what he say in Judo today.
Just my opinion.

Brian Northrup wrote: Sorry Kevin, but i will have to strongly disagree with your opinion of BJJ being more of what Jigoro Kano wanted in terms of his art.

I thought Kevin just stated that some people have that opinion.

Brian Northrup wrote: As a matter of fact though, i believe that Kano would be disapointed with what he say in Judo today. Just my opinion.

I think anyone that reads Mind Over Muscle and then looks at Judo as it is today would struggle to call what they see "Judo."

Apples or Oranges, which is more of a seed dispersal mode or "fruit"?

Alex Lawrence wrote: If you spent eight hours a day in the dojo every day it wouldn't be a way either because you'd never have time to put it into practical use. I wouldn't say I use Aikido every day, but certainly I'm concious of the fact that the values and ways of thinking imparted by my study of budo are with me 24/7, they're part of my identity or umm, spirit. I may only physically practice for three or four times a week but all day every day I'm trying to bring myself into line with the budo ideal. The test for martial arts is how you conduct yourself day to day, do you conduct yourself as a budoka? Or is your mindset still that of an untrained person?

Okay, I'll bite. How, exactly, are you doing this? I assume you get up, put your pants on one leg at a time (or maybe not?), brush your teeth, ride the subway, sit at a desk, send email, etc. I assume that your day is made up of these activities or others like them. How exactly are you doing them in an aikido "way"? And if this "way" isn't manifested in daily activities, how is it manifested?

This question can really be taken as a matter of pride I think. Obviously the Aikidoka is going to scream "ME, I'm so more WAYish than you!!" Then the Judo dude will be like, "WHAO!!! Not cool, I'm so much more in the WAY than your little hakama dancing!!"

It becomes a spitting contest.

a , a , a female deer.
rei ( ), a drop of golden sun
me, a name call myself.......

Alex Lawrence wrote: I thought Kevin just stated that some people have that opinion. I think anyone that reads Mind Over Muscle and then looks at Judo as it is today would struggle to call what they see "Judo."

You are right Alex, and my apologies go out to Kevin for mis quoting him.

Mary Malmros wrote: I'm going to pick at the use of the word "way". Just what does that mean, anyway? And can something you do for an hour four times a week be considered a "way"? (and now we'll get the flood of posts of people talking about how they use aikido to ride the subway and order a burrito and send email...sorry, not buying it, unless you can show me a lot more than people have done heretofore when making such claims)

Hi Mary
I'm not sure it really requires you or anyone else "buying it" in order for it to be true.
I was training it...while reading an engineering review just before I got on line.
From training in the early days Ueshiba noted;
"You can not learn this by just doing it in the dojo, it must be in everything you do."
Hisa who trained with Takeda and Ueshiba
"I practiced all the time, even walking through the crowded street learning to turn the shoulders"
Hint-he was learning to keep the hips aligned and pivoting from the waist while maintaining an upper / lower body connection (something which involves a central pivot, which I have never seen done well in any modern aikidoka I know)
Add to that soooo many stores of budoka through the ages who said essentially the same things (not aikido, granted- but how far do you want to go in believing aikido is that unique?)

Last, you may freely ask ...oh about a dozen or so aikido teachers with decades of experience who train with me who all say they practice while:
Standing and giving a presentation
While driving
while talking to their friends
while waiting in line standing still
while standing and teaching
at meetings
opening doors (a good one)
liftng anything...everything
and in all forms of budo
How can that be and not fall into what you might consider to be "bull...shido" when people say they train all the time? Well, it was new to them. The idea was something they knew of-they were just never handed the tools and overview to make it real and worthwhile. Most will tell you how much fun that "Way" of training is. It can be a blast!
So, when I read these doubts I ask ..how can you ask that?

My personal view; Aikido, done correctly, holds the potential to be one of the most powerful arts in the world. But, Aiki must be trained in certain ways. The chief goal of which is to change the way you carry your body (even when ordering a burrito). And the best way to do that-is to train all the time-particularly solo. Thus making it "a way."
Cheers
Dan

Nice Post Dan,
Best,
Ron

Dan Harden wrote: Hi Mary I'm not sure it really requires you or anyone else "buying it" in order for it to be true.

Well, of course not. Sometimes the emperor really does have a fancy new set of clothes. I just want to actually see them, and not be asked to take it on faith.

Dan Harden wrote: I was training it...while reading an engineering review just before I got on line.

Okay, if you were "training it" while reading, please explain how. Please explain how your reading was part of "the way" of aikido.

Dan Harden wrote: From training in the early days Ueshiba noted; "You can not learn this by just doing it in the dojo, it must be in everything you do." Hisa who trained with Takeda and Ueshiba "I practiced all the time, even walking through the crowded street learning to turn the shoulders" Hint-he was learning to keep the hips aligned and pivoting from the waist while maintaining an upper / lower body connection (something which involves a central pivot, which I have never seen done well in any modern aikidoka I know)

But in the 19th century, you used to see it all the time, right?

Look, what I see there is body awareness gained through physical training. Of course it carries on throughout your daily physical activities. But do you really call that a "way"? And if so, how do you explain that people who engage in all kinds of physical training -- dance or sports or what have you -- also experience this growing awareness of body mechanics? Is what they're doing as they walk down the street a "way"?

Dan Harden wrote: Add to that soooo many stores of budoka through the ages who said essentially the same things (not aikido, granted- but how far do you want to go in believing aikido is that unique?)

Not even as far as the edge of my porch, as you can see from the above.

Dan Harden wrote: Last, you may freely ask ...oh about a dozen or so aikido teachers with decades of experience who train with me who all say they practice while: Standing and giving a presentation While driving while talking to their friends while waiting in line standing still while standing and teaching at meetings opening doors (a good one) liftng anything...everything and in all forms of budo

If they "practice" while doing all those things, then they should be able to a)say how they practice while doing those things (i.e., how is it "practice"), and b)say how this is a "way", or what makes them any different from a dancer or a baseball player.

Dan Harden wrote: How can that be and not fall into what you might consider to be "bull...shido" when people say they train all the time? Well, it was new to them. The idea was something they knew of-they were just never handed the tools and overview to make it real and worthwhile. Most will tell you how much fun that "Way" of training is. It can be a blast!

Oh, I'm quite familiar with the enthusiasm of those who have never before done anything whose effects they could feel beyond the moment they were doing it. It's still an awful long step, IMO, from there to a "way".

Dan Harden wrote: My personal view; Aikido, done correctly, holds the potential to be one of the most powerful arts in the world. But, Aiki must be trained in certain ways. The chief goal of which is to change the way you carry your body (even when ordering a burrito). And the best way to do that-is to train all the time-particularly solo. Thus making it "a way."

So eastern swing dancing is also "a way"?

Hi Mary
What separates us from a baseball player or dancer is that -they- are doing exercise and body mechanics of an external type. We -are not. We are doing aiki. Which is created by changing our bodies. What enthralls or at others times many will say "vexes" them is learning intent and a balanced state of opposition. Which can actually give you a a very "alive" feeling when trying to hold them. The mind gives out before the body. But there is much work that is done without observable motion. Folks even practice laying in bed before they drift off and when they wake up - connecting the breath to the extremities. I trust you can see we are talking about something not observable to the eye- yet it is still "active" work since it involves the body as well.
The mental / physical state in stillness, becomes the mental / physical state in motion. Everywhere, all the time. The physical aspects are observable in that changes the result of contact with budo people, creating even more interesting movement potential due to the result of controlling them with out movement.
I'm not going to tell you how to do it over the net. But we have good results in person.

The point was your doubting the reality or should we say practicality of training while standing in line ordering a burrito or in everything we do. My counter is that it -is- a very real mental / physical endeavor that requires a lot of practice. A "thing" you do, over and over till it becomes you. It changes the way you move, the way you breath, what connects what, and every person you train with will notice.
Since we
1. Are doing something
2. It is hard to do
3. It takes an active mind and concentration
4. It produces physical results on the body
5. It can be done anywhere and everywhere.

It therefore becomes a focus..."a way" for those doing it all the time.

I wasn't trying to convince you of anything. You made a statement that you don't buy it. Fair enough.
I made a statement that you don't know what we are doing, otherwise you would know how someone could do it all the time. I also made reference to it being in budo for quite a while.
The way of aiki was not a dojo exercise. At least not for the ones good at it, and they made note of it. Let's call it a map pointing to...the path...of the way
Did I mention its fun and challenging?
Cheers
Dan

My own view is that judo and aikido, by themselves, as modern martial arts, aren't necessarily going to give you a "way" or "path" to follow unless you're shown one, or create your own. In either case you ultimately have to take ownership of what you're doing and where the path takes you.

When you add the "internal training" - I think that it's meant to be the engine that drives any martial art, whether it's aikido, judo, taiji, silat, krotty, whatever . . and I'm believing more and more that you only get good at it if you make it part of everything you do (in addition to specific activities that only focus on "that").

That doesn't necessarily mean that you're always thinking about training . . it needs to be conditioned to the point where you aren't thinking about it, too - part of the process where things get automatic.

And honestly, you may not care, which is fine . . but for those interested in that kind of personal cultivation AND how it's meant to be expressed in martial arts like aikido (engine of the car) or judo (probably a good reason why Kano sent Tomiki to see what Ueshiba was doing) . . without trying to be too much of an apostle spreading the good news, I have to say that I think it's definitely worth following up on to see what the fuss is about.

Dan Harden wrote: Since we 1. Are doing something 2. It is hard to do 3. It takes an active mind and concentration 4. It produces physical results on the body 5. It can be done anywhere and everywhere. It therefore becomes a focus..."a way" for those doing it all the time.

Hi Mary and Dan, the above list can partially be applied to someone really into dancing (Mary's point), but to drive Dan's point home even more: I think there is something "directional" in internal training, which is why I think it constitutes a way. The fact that one can become obsessed with it helps too, but ultimately:
-you are continuously walking toward unity, away from fragmentation
-it could be termed a process of self-perfection through purification.
Both these things suggest it is a process with a single-minded direction to it.. sounds like a "way," and sounds like what Ueshiba talked about.

Plus, I'm sure even once you are pretty good at it, finding new ways to challenge your ability to keep yourself "possessed by the spirits of heaven and earth" while doing more and more complex stuff must keep it continually enriching.

Budd Yuhasz wrote: My own view is that judo and aikido, by themselves, as modern martial arts, aren't necessarily going to give you a "way" or "path" to follow unless you're shown one, or create your own. In either case you ultimately have to take ownership of what you're doing and where the path takes you.

I think that's totally true and it's how I look at things in general.

But I do think aikido has a little "way" built into the curriculum, which I think is pretty cool. You know how there are things that aren't supposed to be taught until certain ranks? One thing that I know of (because the rigidity of these rules is breaking down) is reversals are supposed to be taught starting at 3rd dan. So the default genera-way that I think O-sensei may have been trying to build-into the curriculum is:
1. Students come in tough and aggressive.
2. They learn that there is value in softness/relaxation (early kyu).
3. They get good at some techniques utilizing this new value system (softness is good, accept don't avoid or fight, etc) (late kyu)
4. They can do these techniques even without full compliance, they can freely use variations that suit the situation (early dan)
5. They realize that the techniques don't work at all at san dan. Reversals show that all techniques are empty.
6. Students must then understand that aiki is beyond technique, and must let go of their ego to be able to destroy all the old habits of their training over the years.
7. They become better people for being able to start over and suck again (a good time to go to secluded valleys and mountains to train, as Ueshiba said to do sometimes)
8. They become better martial artists when they finally use the gokui exercises and practices from class (and from hanging out with O-sensei) correctly, to acquire aiki bodies and come back to the mat.
9. Building and honing the aiki body never ends, so there you have it, a lifelong path with things like humility and self-victory built into it!

ps Judo is a sport so it automatically qualifies as a "Do" right? It's only us non-competitive people who really need to rationalize.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Collectively, I don't think that question is answerable really. Each will have it's critics. Many will say, for instance, the BJJ or Gracie Jiu Jitsu is closer to what Kano intended Judo to be.

I think that anyone that says this clearly didn't get Kano's intent.

But, as you wisely pointed out Kevin, that's just one person's view.
But, it's a like one vote... it's mine.

Best regards (and safe and successful journey where ever you're headed soon),

Serious dancers and baseball players are trying to become better dancers and baseball players.

Serious martial artists doing a martial way are trying to become better martial artists but they can also try - if they want to but they don't have to if they don't want to - to become better humans (as you said: self-perfection). And of course there are lots of other possible ways(!) to do that.

Finally Jonathan it doesn't get more and more complex it gets more and more simple...