Aikido: more than a martial art?

Alex Lawrence wrote: I've never had to pause mid throw in Judo to allow the other guy to take ukemi. In fact in Judo I've never really had to worry about the other guys ukemi, if I'm throwing him correctly there isn't much he can do so there's nothing to worry about. If the guy is half way though uchi mata he can't exactly say "Hang on, stop, lets do this more slowly; I'm unsure of the ukemi." It's a nonsensical thing to say in a judo context, which bit of "tuck head in, try to breathe out" does he not get? In Aikido though I'm always having to adjust my technique to the abilities of my uke. I can go as hard and as fast as I like with people my level and above but I can't do that with people who are junior to me because I end up hurting them.

...but then you get this, surely?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE1JIyAcFIo

"Finishing" strikes, IMO, are not necessarily illegal. It depends on the situation. I believe they could be justified say after you take him down, especially in a multiple opponent situation where it is vital and necessary to ensure that he stays down while you move to the next guy.

Using words like "assumes", "shouldn't" are words that should not really be in a martial artist vocabulary. You should not assume that a throw or takedown will disable, kill, or imoblize your opponent, and it just might be necessary to do something else.

Why limit yourself and your training based on what you envision as the ethical or ideal outcome you desire? Why not practice the full spectrum so you understand the implications, pitfalls, trigger points..etc that may come into play in reality?

We can talk theoretically all day about what we'd like to aspire to and how we'd like to resolve a situation with as high as skill as possible...and I am not saying we should settle for less in our practice or default in all cases to a finishing blow/technique as the optimal/efficient solution...that is definitely a "Low Skill" practice when we look at what we are trying to practice in Aikido. I agree!

But, lets not rule it out either because we have an ethical issue or feel that it is illegal ALWAYS. That mode of thinking can get you hurt or killed.

Just saying...that we need to consider everything in our practice and how things might play out if we are really concerned about such things in reality.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Just saying...that we need to consider everything in our practice and how things might play out if we are really concerned about such things in reality.

yep.. because when you fight reality .... you lose every time.

lol...very good point Janet. That is awesome! didn't catch that!

A few days ago I met an Indian guy who was doing some stretching exercises. I asked was it yoga and he said no, just breathing exercises. He told me real yoga had a spiritual dimension and that the real meaning of yoga was UNITY WITH REALITY. Wow - cool definition! Sounds like aikido to me...

Yoga has many layers to it. Hatha yoga is what most people think as yoga. Prana yoga deals with breathing. I forget what the spiritual part is called. It can become very holistic if practiced completely.

"8 Limbs:"

http://yoga.about.com/od/theyogasutras/p/eightlimbs.htm

Graham Jenkins wrote: ...but then you get this, surely?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE1JIyAcFIo

Irony is he wouldn't have broken his arm if he hadn't tried to take ukemi, if he'd have done precisely nothing he would have been fine no matter how hard he was slammed into the mat. Kinda proves my point really.

Graham Jenkins wrote: Exactly: you would make the technique count, if you had to. In comparison with a throw, a punch to the face isn't much, and with other attackers...

Again here's this compassionate art where if you slightly change the technique you end up ripping someones arm out or breaking their elbow and you were complaining about a punch to the face or a kick in the back of the knee being unacceptable?

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Yoga has many layers to it. Hatha yoga is what most people think as yoga. Prana yoga deals with breathing. I forget what the spiritual part is called. It can become very holistic if practiced completely.

The Bhagavad Gita is a warriors tale, discourse on a battlefield.

Alex Lawrence wrote: Again here's this compassionate art where if you slightly change the technique you end up ripping someones arm out or breaking their elbow and you were complaining about a punch to the face or a kick in the back of the knee being unacceptable?

As I previously said: your technique has to be commensurate with the situation; killing a man for grabbing your shoulder to tell you you've dropped something is not.
If you choose to break somebody's wrist instead of killing them (when they were trying to kill you), then you are showing them compassion - not to mention the fact that the essence of aikido is to yield to this person.

The purpose of budo in O'Sensei's thought, to the best of my knowledge at least, is to protect people - not to hurt or kill needlessly, or for its own sake: you take up a martial art to help people/society, not to harm people.

Graham Jenkins wrote: As I previously said: your technique has to be commensurate with the situation; killing a man for grabbing your shoulder to tell you you've dropped something is not. If you choose to break somebody's wrist instead of killing them (when they were trying to kill you), then you are showing them compassion - not to mention the fact that the essence of aikido is to yield to this person. The purpose of budo in O'Sensei's thought, to the best of my knowledge at least, is to protect people - not to hurt or kill needlessly, or for its own sake: you take up a martial art to help people/society, not to harm people.

And again Judo fits that much better than Aikido does. In Judo the goal is to improve yourself to better society as a whole and the techniques are such that you can defend yourself without the need for any fancy ukemi on your attackers part.

Judo fits Aikido's mission statement better.

As I previously said: your technique has to be commensurate with the situation; killing a man for grabbing your shoulder to tell you you've dropped something is not. If you choose to break somebody's wrist instead of killing them (when they were trying to kill you), then you are showing them compassion - not to mention the fact that the essence of aikido is to yield to this person. The purpose of budo in O'Sensei's thought, to the best of my knowledge at least, is to protect people - not to hurt or kill needlessly, or for its own sake: you take up a martial art to help people/society, not to harm people. And again Judo fits that much better than Aikido does. In Judo the goal is to improve yourself to better society as a whole and the techniques are such that you can defend yourself without the need for any fancy ukemi on your attackers part. Judo fits Aikido's mission statement better.

I believe there is a strong similarity between the [stated] mission of Judo, and the [verbal] goals of aikido, as espoused by leading aikido people such as O'Sensei. We see this not only in writings, but also through the strong relationship between early judo and aikido. There are several paths to the mountain top and I think while aikido and judo are similar in their journey, there still remains enough to differentiate each as a unique martial art.

Second, I think that these similarities allow judo a unique perspective to comment on some aspects of aikido inconsistent with its philosophy. It is sometimes unpleasant to hear about fallibility in our martial art but that gives us the opportunity to address those issues. Other [Japanese] martial arts share components with aikido as well and each have perspective on those components.

I think aikido is a fighting art, compassionately administered. We should not shrink the principles of aikido to meet the dojo environment in which we train today. I recognize that we have modified our techniques and training to maximize safety, minimize injury, and expand the art. However, we need to also recognize the principles of aikido are larger than what we see in the dojo today. I Aikido has an image problem because we are constricting the message of aikido to how we train on the mat because we are unwilling to pursue the art on a greater level (or unknowledgeable about where to pursue more knowledge).

David Board wrote: The Bhagavad Gita is a warriors tale, discourse on a battlefield.

Just bought that, really enjoying it!