Dan and Mike's Thread

Mike Sigman wrote: How about the possibility that many Aikidoists would feel more secure in being surrounded by their own equally knowledgeable-or-ignorant peers when looking at something which may or may not upset their applecart. Fair enough?

I get what you are saying... it's my experience, however, that there was plenty at each Expo to "upset people's applecarts". But the folks who didn't want to deal with it just ignored it. Some of us went precisely to have our applecarts upset and others went to show everybody else how great their style was. The most important things I got out of the Expo experiences was from the non-Aikido teachers. I personally know several 6th dan level folks whose Aikido has changed completely since the Expos because of exposure to some of those teachers. Ikeda Sensei, who, along with Pat Hendricks Sensei, were the only ones of the of the "top dogs" who attended the classes of the other teachers, has changed in very noticeable ways since that training. The relationship he has established with Ushiro Sensei has been extremely important, in particular. So, I know for a fact that there were plenty of sincere "seekers" at the events. These are folks with enough background that I suspect, you could impart something worthwhile to, even if it were just a short time period. At least it would be a good way to establish that personal relationship that makes exchange much easier. Just my own thoughts...

George S. Ledyard wrote: I get what you are saying... it's my experience, however, that there was plenty at each Expo to "upset people's applecarts". But the folks who didn't want to deal with it just ignored it. Some of us went precisely to have our applecarts upset and others went to show everybody else how great their style was. The most important things I got out of the Expo experiences was from the non-Aikido teachers. I personally know several 6th dan level folks whose Aikido has changed completely since the Expos because of exposure to some of those teachers. Ikeda Sensei, who, along with Pat Hendricks Sensei, were the only ones of the of the "top dogs" who attended the classes of the other teachers, has changed in very noticeable ways since that training. The relationship he has established with Ushiro Sensei has been extremely important, in particular. So, I know for a fact that there were plenty of sincere "seekers" at the events. These are folks with enough background that I suspect, you could impart something worthwhile to, even if it were just a short time period. At least it would be a good way to establish that personal relationship that makes exchange much easier. Just my own thoughts...

Fair enough, George. As I've said, I've been to enough of those venues that I have satisfied myself that they offer very limited abilities for substantive exchange. And then too, think how many people get a chance to watch O-Sensei's performances on Stan Pranin's videos and yet how many of them haven't picked up any ki/kokyu/jin skills, even though they positively admired watching O-Sensei and had some warm feelings about him personally.

Frankly, one of my main positions is that at a higher level almost all of the Asian martial arts use these principles when they're "real". Yet the average Aikido observer currently can't pick that out and anything that doesn't resemble the "Aikido" they're used to seeing probably won't ring a bell. On a personal level, I tend to think that working with a few good "martial artists" with a "good heart" is more satisfying than all the public demonstrations I've done to "promote the art" of any sort.

Despite Ushiro Sensei showing some perspective of "kokyu" (I've only seen a couple of film clips)... something that Ikeda Sensei picked up on... how much interest has been shown in the Aikido community? Almost none, statistically. Maybe the problem is not the people who won't conform to Aikido, but the Aikido community perspective? It's a debatable point.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

I don't know Mike...Ikeda Sensei specifically invited Ushiro Sensei to a well attended summer camp, and people like George (another top dog in the art in the States) participated and spoke well of the event. And even teachers in the Yoshinkan are building bridges with Ikeda Sensei (they go to him and he goes to them).

I'd say we are off to a pretty good start, relatively. My experience at the Expo was much as George's; many people shared on many different levels. The demos were the smallest part of the exchange. The workshops and private sessions were the meat. And that would be the venue I would want to see someone showing these skills in...not a demo.

Best,
Ron

Been to all three Aiki-Expos. Had a great time in training, cross-training, discussion, and friendly conversation.

While I have not heard of any plans to do it again, I would hope there continues to be venues we can meet and share our experiences directly on the mat. So much of this is hard to put into words.

Ron Tisdale wrote: I don't know Mike...Ikeda Sensei specifically invited Ushiro Sensei to a well attended summer camp, and people like George (another top dog in the art in the States) participated and spoke well of the event. And even teachers in the Yoshinkan are building bridges with Ikeda Sensei (they go to him and he goes to them). I'd say we are off to a pretty good start, relatively.

Hi Ron:

You're talking "relatively" (although I don't know in relation to what), but I said "statistically". For instance, how much conversations in re Ushiro, kokyu, etc., do you see in the community or the forums right now?

My experience at the Expo was much as George's; many people shared on many different levels. The demos were the smallest part of the exchange. The workshops and private sessions were the meat. And that would be the venue I would want to see someone showing these skills in...not a demo.

I can appreciate that, Ron. It speaks well of your impressions of the Aiki Expo. However, you and George seem to just dismiss my comments about why the time and other constraints wouldn't work for me, even though I have broad experience at "expo's" and "tournaments". You seem to be more interested in defending Aiki Expo as some sort of validating venue for Aikido. Too bad O-Sensei was never able to attend.

There seems to be a strong undercurrent, in my opinion, of a sort of "conform to the community if you want to be taken seriously". I've seen this same thing in Taiji and other arts. To be taken seriously, someone needs to find a legitimate place in the pecking order, it would appear. Although I recognize this sort of thing and I tend to be fairly friendly, I also make an effort to NOT become part of any social organization, Ron. I realize that it irritates a lot of peoples' herd instincts, but in my experience the first step on the road to Hell is to become a part of any social community.

I once had a friend of mine extend an invitation to join a "Taoist Club". My first comment was, "Do Taoists form clubs????". They don't. A club is the antithesis of the Tao. Yet even though Aikido is supposed to be a "Tao" or "Do" in exactly the same sense, the vast majority of practicing Aikidoists are involved in a community conformity. But so are most other martial arts engaged in similar social pursuits, for the most part. I just tend nowadays to engage on a friendly level with the real "seekers".... and they're easy to spot, as opposed to the people who are "seekers" to the extent that their social stature requires it.

Not that I want to offend people... don't get me wrong... but I could easily point out that the pressure to conform or to make "personal relationship that makes exchange much easier", as George said, is itself unwarranted and presumptive.

I kinda like these threads in "Open Discussions" sometimes.

Best.

Mike

Mike Sigman wrote: However, you and George seem to just dismiss my comments about why the time and other constraints wouldn't work for me, even though I have broad experience at "expo's" and "tournaments". You seem to be more interested in defending Aiki Expo as some sort of validating venue for Aikido. Too bad O-Sensei was never able to attend.)

Mike, you are reading way too much into this. I have no interest in defending the Expo, the experience spoke for itself to those who were there and those who weren't don't know. I don't look at the Expo as some sort of "validating" experience except insofar as it was the first time I have ever done my Aikido in the presence of so many people who are my seniors and peers. In my own organization, I am fairly senior.

Sure, I was happy that, after the exposure I got, I was able to forge some wonderful long term relationships with teachers whom, I see as at the top of their game.

This issue of being taken seriously... what does that mean? If people who don't know very much take you seriously, is that significant? If people who are really excellent take you seriously, doesn't that count for something with you? It does for me... The individuals capacity for self delusion is almost infinite. I definitely take the respect of my seniors and peers to be an indication that I am on the right track.

There seems to be a strong undercurrent, in my opinion, of a sort of "conform to the community if you want to be taken seriously". I've seen this same thing in Taiji and other arts. To be taken seriously, someone needs to find a legitimate place in the pecking order, it would appear. Although I recognize this sort of thing and I tend to be fairly friendly, I also make an effort to NOT become part of any social organization, Ron. I realize that it irritates a lot of peoples' herd instincts, but in my experience the first step on the road to Hell is to become a part of any social community.

The Expo gave me a chance to enlarge the number of folks I know who are REALLY at the top of their game. No one gives a **** about a pecking order.... It's not as if being up on the Aikido "pecking order" is some ticket to fame and fortune... After thirty years and three Expos my teaching income is just starting to cover what I spend on training. But I count myself fortunate that I can pick up the phone or send an e-mail to some of the best martial artists I know and they will respond in kind. I sincerely do not think that I am in some sort of "pecking order" with Chuck Clark Sensei or Toby Threadgill Sensei. I don't think Todd Jones Sensei spends any time at all worrying about where we stand relative to one another on some mythical pecking order. The relationship I am developing with Francis Takahashi Sensei is extremely important to me and would never have happened without the Expo. The fact that he started Aikido when I was 4 yrs old is enough of a marker as to where I feel I stand relative to him... These folks have become close friends, not competitors for the Aikido world's esteem... Isn't that what the Expo was really about?

Mike Sigman wrote: Hi Ron: You're talking "relatively" (although I don't know in relation to what), but I said "statistically".

Well, if we are going to talk 'statistically', then we have to have actual statistics. Since we don't...

For instance, how much conversations in re Ushiro, kokyu, etc., do you see in the community or the forums right now?

Actually, a fair amount. We are in one right now There are at least 3 active threads here, one on e-budo on these matters and judo, there was a recent one on rec.martial-arts, etc.

I can appreciate that, Ron. It speaks well of your impressions of the Aiki Expo. However, you and George seem to just dismiss my comments about why the time and other constraints wouldn't work for me, even though I have broad experience at "expo's" and "tournaments". You seem to be more interested in defending Aiki Expo as some sort of validating venue for Aikido. Too bad O-Sensei was never able to attend.

I certainly don't mean to be dismissive...I'm just providing an alternate viewpoint. And it has nothing to do with 'validating aikido', since aikido is not the only art there. I'm defending the workshops as good places to learn whether it's Systema, Karate, internal skills, or anything else.

There seems to be a strong undercurrent, in my opinion, of a sort of "conform to the community if you want to be taken seriously". I've seen this same thing in Taiji and other arts. To be taken seriously, someone needs to find a legitimate place in the pecking order, it would appear. Although I recognize this sort of thing and I tend to be fairly friendly, I also make an effort to NOT become part of any social organization, Ron. I realize that it irritates a lot of peoples' herd instincts, but in my experience the first step on the road to Hell is to become a part of any social community.

I do see this, you are correct. I don't blame you for stepping outside of it. That's why I've always tried to support viewpoints like yours and Dan's and others.

Not that I want to offend people... don't get me wrong... but I could easily point out that the pressure to conform or to make "personal relationship that makes exchange much easier", as George said, is itself unwarranted and presumptive.

Well, sometimes you have to break a few eggs. But I happen to agree with George that "personal relationship that makes exchange much easier". It's a fact, whether we like it or not. No surprise it's a fact here same as anywhere else.

Best,
Ron

George S. Ledyard wrote: This issue of being taken seriously... what does that mean? If people who don't know very much take you seriously, is that significant? If people who are really excellent take you seriously, doesn't that count for something with you? It does for me... The individuals capacity for self delusion is almost infinite. I definitely take the respect of my seniors and peers to be an indication that I am on the right track.

Part of my previous point was that people at Aiki Expo, according to their posts, largely didn't understand the concept of what Ushiro meant by kokyu power. I would refer you back to a thread on Aikido Journal which you yourself participated in. It was an astonishingly short thread, though. And yes, one of my favorite comments to people is "who do you want to take you seriously... the masses or the few true experts in a given field?". Insofar as being on the right track, I think anyone on the right track can duplicate Tohei's "Ki Tests" on the spot, on demand. Since the "Ki" body skills are the basis of Aikido and aiki, wouldn't that be a better gauge than the "respect" of others? (Yes, I'm being a gadfly).

These folks have become close friends, not competitors for the Aikido world's esteem... Isn't that what the Expo was really about?

I never said anything about "competitors" and the nuance you're shifting to isn't what I meant, George. But I understand your position.

Regards,

Mike

Ron Tisdale wrote: Well, sometimes you have to break a few eggs. But I happen to agree with George that "personal relationship that makes exchange much easier". It's a fact, whether we like it or not. No surprise it's a fact here same as anywhere else.

I've got nothing against your position, Ron. Personally I go by either someone's ability or by their honest efforts to search out information. There are people on QiJing, for instance, whom I personally dislike, but they're on there for their knowledge or for their genuine interest in getting at this heart of Asian martial arts.

"Personal relationships" are a complete side-issue to the real pursuit, as long as reasonable courtesy is involved, IMO. You either know it or you don't... and no one knows it all. If you focus on the core skills and don't get distracted by the social stuff, "personal relationships" of the best kind will develop, in my experience.

Regards,

Mike

No arguement there. There are people at my dojo that I don't hang with...but on the mat, it's all about what they can do. The dojo where I train probably isn't a good example though...it's always been pretty much about the training there. There was another dojo I trained at which was more guilty of the things you mention. I'm not there anymore...

The point is...even if the nature of the relationship is not that of "best buds", it is still a relationship. That's all I am saying...not some fluffy bunny psychobable feel good, I'll jack you if you'll jack me kind of thing.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale wrote: The point is...even if the nature of the relationship is not that of "best buds", it is still a relationship. That's all I am saying...not some fluffy bunny psychobable feel good, I'll jack you if you'll jack me kind of thing.

One of the real problems with the jin/kokyu things is, as I mentioned, that it's not something that can be shown/taught in some quicky sessions as an expo-type setting. In fact, it's one of those things that keeps expanding, fractal-like, as you get into it. For years I've fought to keep the workshop discussions as simple as possible and yet provide sort of a big-picture overview (mainly because I don't like doing workshops that much and I'd rather just show what I know and get out of peoples' lives). But it's complicated and some things can't really be shown/taught until one's body has developed a certain amount of abilities/skills.

Take the "One Point" discussion that this thread is an offshoot of. It seems like a simple discussion that someone says "what's that", an answer is given, and everyone moves on. But that's not true; the "one point" or "tanden" or "dantien" is actually a complex concept because, like so much of the nomenclature around "ki", etc., there is no one-to-one easy conveyance of the concept.

(1.) If someone legitimately talks (as opposed to some of the pretentious BS that always floats around) about "breathing to the one point", they mean "breathe to the seika-no-tanden". In the start of this "breathing to the navel" or "condensing the breath/ki to the navel", the practical matter is learning to condense the breath pressure at the lower abdomen area. After some months of practice doing this, a pressure area develops there.... that's the start of a lot, but not all, of the "ki to the navel" discussion and the "one point" is the imaginary center of that pressure area.

(2.) And yes, that area is near the center of mass of the body, but that's really a tangential issue to the point. When you move the body the center of mass, *supported by the power from the ground* is the strongest area to apply force from. A path from the ground (that's the real "mass" you want to use, BTW, the "earth") must go from the ground to the tanden to the object of the push, pull, etc. That means it can't really be manipulated by the shoulder, so the tanden becomes the manipulation point. The "one point" is the center of that manipulation point.

(3.) Lastly, there is a control of the body "connection" that is very hard to describe to someone who has not felt it or who has not developed some part of it through breathing and focused stretching cum jin exercises. But when you feel this odd additive to the body's abilities (it sounds strange, but then just describing how to wiggle one's ears sounds strange to someone who has never done it or seen it), there is indeed a sort of focused "one point" of "feeling". Being sort of an analytic cynic, I suspect that point of focussed feeling has a lot to do with the fact that you've developed that area... i.e., if you really worked at it, for some weird reason, you could probably develop a "one point" feeling in some other part of the body.

The point in the stuff above was that just in this small part of the whole subject of ki, it gets pretty complicated to go through and describe... much less time though than it would take to lead people to where they can feel and do these things themselves. A quicky at an AikiExpo would simply be too limited a venue to even get started. Good relationships or not.

Regards,

Mike

I understand that you may not be able to teach it at an expo. The point of an expo is not to teach, but to show ideas, possibilities and to demonstrate concepts.

I would fully expect to be wow'd by your technique and how effective or different it was to anything I'd ever felt before as I came at you within the parameters that we agreed upon in which the demonstration would take.

The only issue I have had, and not necessarily with you Mike, is those that have professed to possess abilities, but then cannot demonstrate them effectively within the parameters we establish/agree upon.

No doubt that there are guys that can lift heavy weights with their penises. However, what is impressive to me is that you can translate that skill into something that is remotely useful to generally accepted within the martial arts or sports community, and be able to effectively demonstrate how it adds to or increases the effectiveness of the sport/art.

Saying, I'd show you but there is not enough time. Or I'd show you, but you do not have the right skill level, or I'd show you but then I'd have to kill you, generally peaks my BS meter right up there. You should be able to demonstrate this stuff on some level regardless of the time/skill level involved.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: I understand that you may not be able to teach it at an expo. The point of an expo is not to teach, but to show ideas, possibilities and to demonstrate concepts. I would fully expect to be wow'd by your technique and how effective or different it was to anything I'd ever felt before as I came at you within the parameters that we agreed upon in which the demonstration would take. The only issue I have had, and not necessarily with you Mike, is those that have professed to possess abilities, but then cannot demonstrate them effectively within the parameters we establish/agree upon. No doubt that there are guys that can lift heavy weights with their penises. However, what is impressive to me is that you can translate that skill into something that is remotely useful to generally accepted within the martial arts or sports community, and be able to effectively demonstrate how it adds to or increases the effectiveness of the sport/art. Saying, I'd show you but there is not enough time. Or I'd show you, but you do not have the right skill level, or I'd show you but then I'd have to kill you, generally peaks my BS meter right up there. You should be able to demonstrate this stuff on some level regardless of the time/skill level involved.

Kevin, despite discussing this exact same issue before, and a couple of others along exactly the same lines (remember when I discussed the example using Wendy Rowe??? If she can't kick my ass with Aikido, does that mean that Aikido is useless??? Remember the conversation????), and you backing off and pretending to be polite, you keep coming back with this same crap. I'm tired of it. I'm talking about not having the ability to teach the principles of this form of strength to any useable degree in an expo format.... you're back to the same BS about "if I can't whip somebody's ass at Aiki Expo then it's useless, yada, yada, yada." Go back and read your posts on the "Jo Trick" thread... we've BEEN through this, Kevin. If you want to see what I have, come see me.... don't start this backhanded trivialization by distorting it to "can you kick ass with it" crap again. It's chickenshit. You've come back to this same approach between 5 and 10 times now.


Mike Sigman

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Saying, I'd show you but there is not enough time. Or I'd show you, but you do not have the right skill level, or I'd show you but then I'd have to kill you, generally peaks my BS meter right up there. You should be able to demonstrate this stuff on some level regardless of the time/skill level involved.

Preach it Brother Kevin!

Sounds about like time for a throwdown, neh?

Chuck Gordon wrote: Sounds about like time for a throwdown, neh?

Actually, I think it's time for some of the Aikido people and Koryu people to start wondering how they "teach", but they don't seem to understand the physical body skills that all the "ki" discussions are about. Including the "stillness in motion", Reiki-no-ho, etc... those are all part of the "ki" body skills.

Instead of trying to divert the discussion to a "throwdown at Aiki Expo", just show up. My comments about discussing a complex subject not being suited for quicky venues still stands. So far, instead of politely acknowledging that as a possibility (Ron being somewhat of an exception), all I get is some mindless tangents.

The real question, Chuck, for someone supposedly knowledgeable in Koryu and Aikido, is why your archived comments about "ki" are so far off. How do you justify it? Is the best solution for you to trivialize these body skills that you apparently have no real knowledge of?

Regards

Mike Sigman

I would just like to interject an observation which might or might not be helpful to anyone. I do this in the good faith hope that the issues involved are actually somehow confusing. The question I want to address is the issue of how ki/kokyu skills may or may not relate to martial skills - and by extension to Aikido.

The folowing analogy is not meant to be perfect, but it should be illustrative. I *think* those advocating the ki/kokyu skills will agree that it is apt - as far as it goes; and I hope those on the other side of the issue can understand its purpose without feeling the need to pick it apart beyonds its utility.

On one side of the equation, we have ki/kokyu skills and martial skills. Obviously one can have martial skills without ki/kokyu skills and vice versa. The argument some might make is that the ki/kokyu skills will, *in and of themselves* augment whatever martial practice one engages in - and furthermore, that *some* martial practices really *require* at least a basic level of these skills.

On the other side of the equation (which is to say, the analogy), let's look at the relationship between pitch skills and musical ability. By pitch skills, I mean both relative and absolute (perfect) pitch. It is well known that there are individuals with absolute pitch but without any other particular musical ability. It is also well known that not all skilled musicians possess absolute pitch. However, there is a fairly reasonable correlation between relative pitch and musical ability. All serious musicians will have a degree of skill in identifying and producing relative pitches - and anyone with that skill will also have *ipso facto* a degree of 'musicality'. It might even be argued that someone with *zero* relative pitch skills cannot be considered a serious musician. [For the record, I am not a serious musician by any stretch of the imagination.]

Now, some musicians will have acquired a certain aptitude with relative pitch - simply as the default effect of years of reading and playing music. They may be fantastic musicians who never explicitly studied the subject. Even if - because they never bothered to be systematic about it - they lack certain aspects of the full skill set, they may not mind and it may not harm their particular style of music making. They would, however, recognize the lack in another; and with any perspicuity they would also recognize that (even if this was not how they developed it) a systematic course of development could be applied to remedying the lack.

Absolute pitch, on the other hand, does not seem to develop spontaneously, but it does seem that it can be intentionally cultivated. The methods involved in this intentional cultivation have nothing to do with the act of playing or composing music - but it should be obvious to everyone that, if one were willing and able to invest the time and effort in performing this cultivation, it would enhance one's musical ability.

How one chooses to spend one's practice time is an individual decision. Certainly most musicians do not put in the effort to cultivate absolute pitch - but to some extent this may be because it is not well-known that this is possible (assuming it is), and because well-developed systematic methods of performing this development are not widespread. On the other hand, it might be argued that there *is* a long-standing tradition of basing martial skills on the underlying ki/kokyu skills; and there *are* well-systematized approaches to doing so. The relationship between relative pitch and musical accomplishment is traditional, however.

Past a certain point, arguing about whether or not certain underlying skills will *really* enhance musicality/martial ability is silly. You either see and accept it or not. You may be skeptical as to whether absolute pitch is a real phenomenon, and whether it can actually be developed - but if you do not see the applicability to music performance/composition then that's not really anyone else's problem. A 'perfect pitch' skeptic would be entitled to a demonstration that it is possible. Someone wanting to learn the skill would be entitled to an explanation of how the method was meant to progress. It's worth separating out these three levels of disbelief. 1) Disbelief that the skill is relevant. 2) Disbelief that the skill is possible. 3) Disbelief that the skill can be taught.

Category 1 *might* be a somewhat confused subset of category 2. Whatever the case may be, if I were sincerely interested in maximizing my musicality, I would need to make a decision as to whether the investment/reward tradeoff relative to my musical goals would make it worth my while to develop absolute and/or relative pitch. If so, I would be looking for the best method to do that. If not, I'd just forget the whole thing. The one thing I would *not* be doing *at all* is asking purveyors of a method for developing pitch skills to 'prove' or even 'demonstrate' their utility. *I* would try (in the least confrontational manner possible) to establish whether the skill actually existed (if in doubt - which there need not be really, in the light of accumulated world knowledge) and then discovering whether an individual can really teach it. Why 'test' a prospective teacher of perfect pitch on their ability to compose or perform music? It's just not to the point. What matters is whether or not they can help you learn to develop the skills - so you probably want to establish that they have them. It's then up to you to do the work and to use them how you want to.

That's not to say that such a teacher (whether King Kong, Godzilla, or any other mega-monster terrorizing the powerless inhabitants of Tokyo) *couldn't* go to town and rock you with a crazy Hendrix beat-down - but requesting such a demonstration might be indicative of a misunderstanding, and might well just get you blown off.

Chhi'mèd

Chhi'mèd Künzang wrote: That's not to say that such a teacher (whether King Kong, Godzilla, or any other mega-monster terrorizing the powerless inhabitants of Tokyo) *couldn't* go to town and rock you with a crazy Hendrix beat-down - but requesting such a demonstration might be indicative of a misunderstanding, and might well just get you blown off.

Pretty far out analogy, Chhi'med.

Long ago I found out that one of the more productive approaches is to avoid the BS as much as possible and then deliberately provoke the people that try to be jerks so that they would never stoop to coming to share information. Ultimately, of course, it creates some enemies.... but often your true worth can be described by who your enemies are.

Your analogy is fine, as are so many comments by different people, but ultimately it comes down to that old saying I've found so many Asians like to say, "Either they figure it out or they don't". And I think Ueshiba said something exactly along those lines to Terry Dobson, too, so this shouldn't be a surprise about how it works.

Best.

Mike

Mike,

Pretty far out analogy, Chhi'med.

That was just my nod to 'Dan and Mike's Thread'. I was sort of sitting here at home picturing readers crouched under their desks hoping you two would kill each other without ruining too much of the metropolitan infrastructure.

-ck

Chhi'mèd Künzang wrote: Mike, That was just my nod to 'Dan and Mike's Thread'. I was sort of sitting here at home picturing readers crouched under their desks hoping you two would kill each other without ruining too much of the metropolitan infrastructure. -ck

Interesting analogy, my guess is that many readers are sitting back in their seats, eating popcorn, and enjoying the entertainment

Chhi'mèd Künzang wrote: That was just my nod to 'Dan and Mike's Thread'. I was sort of sitting here at home picturing readers crouched under their desks hoping you two would kill each other without ruining too much of the metropolitan infrastructure.

Actually, since you've seen *some* or the real fallout to Dan's preposterous post, on another list, I'm not sure why you see it as some sort of "contest" between the two of us. I never did. He stated something blatantly untrue and I called him on it. That's not a "contest", the way I see it. It's more following a certain Way of doing things.

FWIW

Mike

Mike Sigman wrote: I'm not sure why you see it as some sort of "contest" between the two of us. I never did. He stated something blatantly untrue and I called him on it.

Sorry if that was confusing. I was referring to the thread name (which was created when it was split). It seems to me that a certain degree of sensationalism/controversy went into the choice of that name. I did not mean, by parodying the sentiment, to partake in it. For the record, now that it has come up, I understand the reason for your objections to what Dan said; they are not wholely unrelated to my own (earlier in the thread).

-ck

How long will the" Dan and Mike's Thread" last. Will they make it to 1000 posts?
Hey Jun, are we allowed to make bets.

David, you are just being naughty now, behave or Jun will confiscate your keyboard

Mark Freeman wrote: David, you are just being naughty now, behave or Jun will confiscate your keyboard

I thought I was banned from Aikiweb last night!!!

Chhi'mèd Künzang wrote: I was sort of sitting here at home picturing readers crouched under their desks hoping you two would kill each other without ruining too much of the metropolitan infrastructure. -ck

I have no care whatsoever what Dan and Mike do to each other.

They're consenting adults.

However, I find it amazing that the discussion is still ongoing on this list.

Whatever.

Anybody want to talk about beer?

cg (Not a sock puppet)