Ode to be a Mystic...

Great Post Prof PAG,

You just made my morning...what an excellent use of Aikido!!

Thats why I love this forum...

Much Respect,
Kevin

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: Hello Mark,

Hello sensei,
I must say that you made me laugh out loud with your post. I especially loved the "dialogue".

I'll address the parts without smilies below.

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: For Morihei Ueshiba, I do not think that such treasured 'western' concepts of 'faith' and 'belief' enter into the question. I think you need to abandon, or at least to suspend, your 'western' empiricist ways of thinking, when reading O Sensei. Comments below (marked PAG). PAG. Well, I have studied O Sensei's discourses in Japanese and I know that they are a major challenge, even for native Japanese. However, I think that it is quite wrong to say that O Sensei 'believed' in kami: at certain times, he was convinced that he WAS the kami in question.

I do believe that O Sensei was convinced he was the kami. And in that regards, one must say that O Sensei knew and believed the existence of kami. I would find it very hard to argue against that.

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: PAG. Are you sure the difference is so well defined? I think you need to know that you have quietly added another ingredient to your mix. This is 'knowledge'. How does this differ from 'faith' or 'belief' and how much do you think that O Sensei was aware of these three distinctions? So how could O Sensei at the same time 'know' and also 'believe' that there were kami?

Here in the U.S., I think the differences are blurred. In fact, I think there should be defined distinctions between faith, belief, and knowledge. I hesitated to add knowledge into my post because it requires a bit more than the other two. But, if you have knowledge, then really, faith and belief are no longer issues.

For example, faith can cause one to believe in an afterlife. Belief in the afterlife comes from examining evidence. But, knowledge requires firsthand experience. If you have the knowledge, you no longer need faith and you no longer require belief. Your faith has been justified and your belief proven.

Kind of a loosely based example would be the accounts of people dying while in surgery. So, faith would be from people who had no direct experience and did not know of anyone who had experience in this area. Belief would come from knowing people and gathering the reports of other people who had "died" and come back (this is all providing that the reports are nearly the same giving some quantity of evidence.) But, knowledge comes from the person who experienced the death and came back.

In that regard, you hear a lot of people say, "I believe in an afterlife" or "I know there's an afterlife", when really, they mean I have faith that there is one because they have not seen any evidence and they have not experienced it.

As for O Sensei, I would not argue that he had faith, belief, or knowledge. But, in regards to my post, I was mostly concerned with people studying mysticism and aikido. Who has faith in the kami? Who has belief in the kami? And who has knowledge? It's easy to say I have faith. It requires no proof or evidence. It's harder to say I believe because it requires some evidence. And it's very tenuous to say I have knowledge because it is an area where such knowledge cannot be easily recreated, tested, or supported.

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: PAG. Well, you would have to ask, for example, the population of Aikiweb? You could start by asking Rev. Barrish...

True. And I asked using "believe" rather than "faith" or "knowledge" because it requires some evidence but not direct experience.

In regards to the Rev. Barrish ... I think that I would rather have a direct conversation because I'm sure I'd have a multitude of questions that would be easier and better served in person. I am hoping that I can make it to the Shrine one day and that I would be able to visit and talk with Rev. Barrish.

Thank you again,
Mark

Matthew Gano wrote: Hi Kevin, In that I was practicing Shinto meditation. I described misogi and some of its effects. Good luck, Matt

Just to elaborate a bit more:
I think a lot of folks look at mystical experiences as being somewhat psychedelic. In my experience/perception, they're a way of having extreme intent...a certain passion filling every action, which for me is based in a sense of gratitude.
Hope my last message didn't seem too curt.
Take care,
Matt

Mark Murray wrote: Here in the U.S., I think the differences are blurred. In fact, I think there should be defined distinctions between faith, belief, and knowledge. I hesitated to add knowledge into my post because it requires a bit more than the other two. But, if you have knowledge, then really, faith and belief are no longer issues. Thank you again, Mark

Hello Mark,

Absoutely, but why would the differences be blurred in the US? Some of my happiest days in the US involved (1) going to morning training in the old New England Aikikai Dojo (usually with Fred Newcomb teaching--Kanai Sensei was not a 'morning' person); (2) having breakfast in the deli opposite the dojo and learning all about the intricacies of American English, especially involving fried eggs; (3) going back to Harvard and debating at length the questions you raised with very bright people; (4) going to evening training with Kanai Sensei (who did not really worry about such issues); (5) having dinner after training in a restaurant that was very close to the dojo. The only time I discussed faith, knowledge, and belief was at (3).

I think the issues surrounding faith, knowledge and belief in aikido were pretty much the same in the US as they were in the UK, when I returned. In Japan, however, things are somewhat different, mainly because there is a huge problem of vocabulary. Thus, I am pretty sure that O Sensei would have regarded his encounters with the deities as a matter of knowledge, not faith or belief.

Best,

PAG

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: Hello Mark, Absoutely, but why would the differences be blurred in the US?

Sometimes I wonder if it's just American nature but I don't have a solid foundation in cultural issues outside the U.S. so I don't really know.

But, there are quite a lot of examples where these things blur here in the U.S., particularly in religious matters. You will hear people say, "I know there is a God" all the time. Unfortunately, the sentence should be "I have faith that there is a God".

Regarding kami, even in this thread, I get the sense that quite a few posters don't believe in kami and that mysticism, shinto rites, chinkon kishin, etc are really about internal spiritual awakenings or inner development.

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: Thus, I am pretty sure that O Sensei would have regarded his encounters with the deities as a matter of knowledge, not faith or belief. Best, PAG

I guess the question would be, if you are studying aikido and want to delve into the spiritual side of O Sensei, do you have to believe that kami are real? Or do you have to go beyond and have knowledge that kami are real?

Thank you,
Mark

Matthew Gano wrote: Just to elaborate a bit more: I think a lot of folks look at mystical experiences as being somewhat psychedelic. In my experience/perception, they're a way of having extreme intent...a certain passion filling every action, which for me is based in a sense of gratitude. Hope my last message didn't seem too curt. Take care, Matt

Thanks Matt, that is more of what I was looking for...I'm sure that any 'mystical' experiences would be very subjective in nature, I don't have any set in stone preconceptions of what a mystical experience would be, only that I would like to believe that they are possible. I'm not one to accept things as they are or by how others will define them but would rather challenge them to what they could be. I like my lines blurred.

Coincidentally, I just caught a special program on the National Geographic, or the Science channel about some modern scientists who are challenging conventional 'wisdom' on what our minds are capable of....The Institute of Noetic Sciences http://www.noetic.org/. Very timely and interesting...who was the poster who said seek and a teacher will come?

The problem when you try to have a discussion about these things, is that people will be quick to refute your experience or label you as less than credible. I've always admired individuals, scientists, military leaders, mavericks, individuals like Tesla, Einstein, Col. Hackworth, among others, who challenge the system...create their own reality. Thats maybe why I find aikido so fascinating...it goes against conventional Budo/Martial thought...I don't know if I will become an Aikidoka one day but I enjoy possiblity of becoming one.

Thanks Again, I hope to one day visit your Shrine.

Mark Murray wrote: I guess the question would be, if you are studying aikido and want to delve into the spiritual side of O Sensei, do you have to believe that kami are real? Or do you have to go beyond and have knowledge that kami are real? Thank you, Mark

Dear Mark,

Do I have to have knowledge that you are real in order to respond to your inquiry?

Is faith enough?

Is belief enough?

Or, Is it possible that I can respond to your inquiry without knowing, believing, or having any faith whatsoever in your own independent existence from your own side? And if I do that, does that mean I view you as unreal?

Interdependently yours,

Some pattern designation conventionally referred to as "Fred Little"

Mark Murray wrote: I guess the question would be, if you are studying aikido and want to delve into the spiritual side of O Sensei, do you have to believe that kami are real? Or do you have to go beyond and have knowledge that kami are real?

I suppose it depends on what you would want from your delving. If you want to understand where he was coming from, it probably doesn't matter, as it remains intellectual. If you want "what he had" and wanted to pursue the same path, or similar at it's core at least, then I think you'd have to not only believe but find a way to have direct knowledge, i.e., a direct experience that they are real.... a tricky path to follow, as there are many.... empty roads that might seem to be full at the start....

Mark Murray wrote: I guess the question would be, if you are studying aikido and want to delve into the spiritual side of O Sensei, do you have to believe that kami are real? Or do you have to go beyond and have knowledge that kami are real?

IMHO, if you want to delve into O'Sensei's spirituality, then yes, you need to believe what he believed and good luck in finding, understanding, and adopting that.

If you want to delve into your own spirituality, begin to see through the illusions of your own beliefs and accept that neither you or your beliefs actual exist.

Kevin Hagens wrote: Thanks Matt, that is more of what I was looking for...

Cool! I agree it's that subjective quality which makes topics like this so difficult. It's almost like we're given a Connect the Dots project but none of the dots are numbered and the longer you look at the paper, some dots will disappear while other suddenly appear from nowhere.

The problem when you try to have a discussion about these things, is that people will be quick to refute your experience or label you as less than credible.

I haven't run into this too much in this forum, fortunately. I understand the skepticism that's out there though. I know history well enough to know the dangers of faith; it's frightening when you think of folks like Gallileo and what they had to endure in the name of "Virtue."

Thanks Again, I hope to one day visit your Shrine.

My pleasure! I don't often feel like I have much to offer in this forum in general, so it always makes me feel good to hear I contributed something.