Training: Separate the Sexes?

Bruce Baker wrote: After reading the entire thread, many of the posts have proved in words that men and women do have opposite polaritys and operate in different ways to come up with conclusions. [...] Guys, if you don't know the rules let me enlighten you. Women have the right to be wrong, change their mind to be right, and change the rules if it doesn't suit them. I guess it is the combination of sexual agression and the polarity thing with men creating the comforts of modern society to please women.

I definitely have other ways of coming to conclusions than does Mr. Baker. I suppose this proves the first statement to be true.

Best regards

Hanna

Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote: if people repeatedly have this response to your post, wouldn't it be pragmatic and wise (and aiki) to think about ways that you might more effectively provoke the response you are interested in?

Oh, most definitely. Unless the response you are interested in is to the very question I asked , in which case I don't know (yet) of too many ways to ask it.

Opher,

Incidentally, I do think the whole issue of the relationship between 'homophobia' and homosexual inclinations, and same-sex institutions is an interesting one for Aikido discussion. It illustrates a direct analogy between what happens physically on the mat, and psychological and political dynamics.

We know from our practice that directly resisting an attack makes it stronger and more effective. I think a similar dynamic is in effect whenever people attempt to directly repress urges or energies, either on a personal or societal level. Eventually whatever is getting pushed down builds up so much pressure that it explodes, bringing calmitous consequences. Plus, the preoccupation with pushing it down transforms the pusher. An individual who fears and represses their homoerotic energies makes them more powerful, requiring more repression... eventually they're out beating on some guy who happens to appear effeminate to prove to themselves, their buddies, or whoever, that they aren't gay.

In the case of militaries, I perhaps this is handled in more complex way, where the repressed energies are sanctioned to be released against official enemies, and in hazing rituals. It seems like mild homoeroticism - like wrestling, or getting naked and snapping each other with towels - is encouraged in military culture, but overt sexual acts are violently discouraged, considered shameful, and apparently the common substance of grave insults.

As an interesting aside, my Dad was telling me that when he was in Vietnam, there were elite Southern soldiers there called 'Tiger Marines', I believe. It was their custom, among male friends, to hold hands - when they were walking, eating dinner, etc... The US soldiers were warned that it was merely a cultural difference, and that they should ignore it. Several US GIs couldn't resist, and attempted to tease and pick fights with some of the Tiger Marines. They ended up finding out the hard way that - unlike US soldiers - those apparently cissy little Vietnamese guys were extensively trained in martial arts/unarmed combat. Apparently, several GIs were seriously injured, and their seniors just said 'I told you so'... Just one of my Dad's stories, which aren't always so good on facts, but are usually entertaining.

I guess this would (or would most definitly not?) be the place to admit that when people ask me why I like AiKiDo I say that I like spending 2 hours a day touching other people.

Hi everyone,

Phew! Things are getting quite heated here! I can see some folks are searching their closets for their full-body asbestos-lined underwear.

I just wanted to pipe up and remind people to please be respectful of each other's thoughts, however much they may differ from your own. Discussing sensitive subjects such as what's being discussed here requires tact, civility, and sensitivity. Please take the time and effort required to discuss in a manner designed for sharing rather than polarizing, regardless of the subject matter.

After all, we're here to bring people together -- not drive them (us) apart...

Now, back to your regularly scheduled AikiWeb Forums programming.

Regards,

-- Jun

Thank you, Jun.

Yes, Thank you Jun. Perhaps I would have been better to have descriminated against most of these folks and stayed on the 'Voices of Experience' page. Just joking. Well, almost.

I think that any thinking individual who has read this string must surely, by now, fully understand why I pick and choose my students very carefully. Why would I expose my family to individuals who are not of our kind? Kindness is very important to me. To be 'of the same kind' in fact, defines family. Kinship is what holds people together. I feel that few families are born together in the same house. The best are made by choice and have a common thread that unites them.

Like an aikido dojo. My best man was an aikidoka. So was my wife, actually both of them. All the people I play music with are aikidoka. All the guys I hunt with, fish with, camp with etc. My whole family. We are together at Christmas, at birthdays.

I hear you gearing up to say 'what kind'? Okay, though you seem to keep ignoring it, nice people. People who would never have written some of the things I have read on this string. Opher seems like a fine person, thoughtful and intelligent. Chris has been very clear and deliberate, almost wise, though we disagree, I don't feel any mean intent. But some have grabbed onto one word or one line and shaken it like a dog that picks up a wounded pheasant. Not with any true intent to understand, but to attack, to further their own agenda. Those are the people I don't want around me. I'm geting too old for this.

In fact, when interviewing prospective students, one of the things I always mention is that there is not one person who trains here that you would not want for your best friend. No hard cases. No bad attitudes. No chest thumping, testosterone, or PMS.

I won't allow it and if it happens, well, like a family, we deal with it.

This thing about gender based decrimination is really the topic, remember. I have had women students and found it easier not to have them. Chris, it is true I am trying to make things easier on myself. I have fought all those wars and don't want to have to work that hard anymore.

Now if you don't think you would be accepted here and it makes you angry, well I understand. Does that get under your skin a bit? It should. But let me say this clearly. No one has ever left here and been denied access to a dojo or aikido. There are many dojos in this town and most of them only require you to pay money. This dojo is my home and I doubt if most of you would invite just anyone into your home without some form of descrimination. I won't even watch Seinfeld.

Admittedly, the gentleman in question could have chosen some of his words more carefully. However, he has built a place that he likes and admitted the people he wants there and that should be the end of it.

Why must people seek to break apart something just because they have an issue with it? I personally am not that fond of republicans, but I don't waste my time trying to get them disbanded or anything

Personally I think they are some women who would like the hard training, and their dojo is missing out on some stuff, but who's to say? I enjoy training with women - they often kick the hell out of me. For some reason I like that. Go fig.

But some have grabbed onto one word or one line and shaken it like a dog that picks up a wounded pheasant. Not with any true intent to understand, but to attack, to further their own agenda.

But Daniel, I think that the point is that those individual lines really unsettled people. To say that people responded the way they did because they had an 'agenda' is to overlook what it was in them that their agenda was designed to protect. Or, if you want, they were not so much furthering an agenda as defending it, and they were defending an agenda because they felt that issues (important to them as individuals) on that agenda were under attack.

Now, I don't mean to conclude from that that you shouldn't have said those things, or even that you should have strained and stretched to find some PC way to say them. Instead, I'm arguing for you to treat their hostility/discomfort in just the way you described it: the result of a failure to understand.

Just like, on the mat, every attack is an opportunity or an opening, in this forum, every attack is hiding a question or an opportunity to explain. I know that I still have some questions that I would love to hear you answer. I can understand if the forum has put you off, but I'm going to list them just in case your interested:

1) Would an (otherwise qualified) homosexual fit into your dojo? What do you think about Kevin's analysis of the relationship of male single-sex institutions and homo-eroticism?

2) What do you think of Deb's discussion of the subtle connection between bigotry and true hatred? I feel that being honest with oneself, differences in behavior between men and women are impossible to ignore. There are ways in which I think men have an advantage, and plenty of ways in which I think women have an advantage, and even more in which they are just different. How could I help feeling that way? On the other hand, I know, and Deb explained nicely, how this sort of thinking can cause very serious problems. I wonder how you feel about these issues.

3) As someone who is in a better position to judge than most of us, I would love to hear your sense of the positive and negative sides of running a single sex dojo. Perhaps because so many people have disagreed with you, you haven't gotten much of a chance to describe your own hesitations and questions about your policy. Surely it must have weaknesses as well as strengths? Your experience here would be really interesting to me.

Well, I'll just say that I don't agree with Daniel's policy and leave it at that. He has a right to do as he pleases, just as I have a right to disagree. Whatever.

The aikido dojo where I train has plenty of women, and I like it that way. In fact, some of our most senior members are women, and (dare I say) over 50, and are instructors. Some of the women kick my butt on a regular basis. Some of my favorite training partners are women. What they or other members may lack in physical strength, they more than make up for in technical precision. I have never seen a woman cry or whine on the mat. I take that back; I remember one woman (a mudansha) complaining about her male (a yudansha) partner's weak technique and ukemi. He thought she was throwing him too hard!

We don't have a women's only program, although it has been discussed in the past. I could be wrong, but I believe the reason we don't have a women's only class is that the female members didn't want one. However, we do have some women's only sessions at our annual association's summer camp.

Daniel, I think one reason that you haven't encountered minority aikido practitioners in your travels may have more to do with geographical locations and their resultant demographics rather than any potential discrimination issues. Our dojo has a pretty decent representation of the ethnic and racial population of the north side of Chicago. I believe that most dojo will reflect demographic traits similar to the towns/neighborhoods in which they are located. At least, that's been my observation when I've visited dojo in places around the U.S. Just my two cents.

Yes, Opher, I'll try.

1. I made an unfortunate remark in one of my first posts about grossly overweight individuals not being accepted as students here. I referenced that one other time with a remark about their unfortunate abuse of their digestive tracts. I apologized for that already. I will apologize again. I also apologize to all the homosexuals who miscontrued the remark to refer to them. I know nothing about homosexuals, their auto erotic whatevers and would face twentyfive dead stares if I asked the members in class to comment. I don't know any homosexuals, am not interested in their practice and as all the men here are either married or in solid relationships, can't even comment on your question. I have never made reference to homosexuals in any of my posts except this one and have studiously ignored the posts from those who seem to find this an appropriate topic.

However, this forum is about excluding women, not homosexuals. It is about sexual descrimination not sex. To answer your question, about 'would I accept a homosexual?' I had a friend in D.C. many years ago who died of AIDS. If he could walk down my bamboo lined board walk and step into the dojo to train I would certainly welcome him. He was a good friend and a fine man.

One of the single greatest things that keeps me excluding women is the overall, nay, vast support I receive in this regard from the wives and girlfriends of the men who train here. They regard it as healthy, positive, and are completely in support of it. I mentioned earlier that no one has ever said a negative word concerning this prior to my first post. The wives and girlfriends are totally in support of this policy. They know aikido is a healthy activity. It is a positive, emotional release as well as solid phisical training and they want their husbands healthy. They don't wonder what's going on at the 'health club' or the 'golf course' or when they will be home. They like the idea of a 'Man's Club" and often get together by themselves for what ever.

As far as the positive aspect of training in only one sex, okay hold on. I will simply say that when training the human body it is far easier to explain certain aspects of the training if one does not have to concern oneself with ofending a woman. I know many Senseis have no problem with this and I admire them, however Chris LI was pretty close to home when he said that teaching in a dojo like mine would be very easy and he might not think much of the challenge.

I don't like paying lip service to political correctness and rarely do it. I am very plain spoken to the point of bluntness. My old friend and Sensei, Ed Baker, Shihan, had a similar difficulty. Perhaps it is our shared Navy background. Baker Shihan welcomed women on his mat but they seldom lasted long. May I mention that over the years I have trained three women shodans and one woman nidan? I am not a stranger to women on the mat.

I don't know Opher, perhaps I worry about women too much and tend to focus on their well being to too great an extent. I never let a woman take a break fall if I could help it. I didn't let them do Koshi nages because I was afraid the heavy weight of lifting might cause stress fractures in their hips. I read something about that and couldn't stand to see a woman even stretch someone after class. The last woman to leave this dojo was injured (just bruised) and I still am not sure what happened or why, only that it happened and I felt as if I had failed her. It just all seemed too much. I don't like it whan a man is injured either, but somehow we all admire a man who takes the pain, sets his own broken finger with duct tape and then get back on the mat to train some more. Assuming the broken bone is not protruding from the skin, that is...

I have enjoyed this forum greatly and although this is the first time I have taken part in a conversation like this I feel that some good communications has taken place. Truth be told, though, I'd still rather talk over the phone or over a cold beer.

God Bless You All.

Bryan,

'His name is Nakao Shingo, 6th Dan from Kobe.'

Heck, Nakao sensei? I've trained with him once or twice! He runs 5km before training... crazy old man. But then, that was in our dojo... no seperation of sexes there. I'll check anyway.

I came across this thread long after it started and I'm glad it happened so.
This thread made me run back and forth on a range of opinions and feelings.
In each passing post I've changed my mind.
At first I was startled with the "only men might enter these gates" idea.
But the more I read Mr. Linden rationales and other observant people posts - I realized I can almost relate to the idea and even got a bit jealous a Dojo like that doesn't exists where I live.
Dan, you made it tough for me to fully appreciate what your doing - in every early post you've sent, there was one offensive or generalization remark about women,
I'm glad you've posted the last one to soften your tone. It made things much clearer for me.

I'm a woman - I get bruised easily (I even started a thread on that subject... ) and sometimes I whine about it, That's me.
But I love Aikido and I still come to every class - bruised or not.
I wish you all the best and I appreciate the time and effort you spent here.
This thread helped me learn a lot about first impressions, judging other people and different points of view.
That's an important and beneficial lesson for life.

Efrat

P.S I can only wish the name 'Hitler' won't be mentioned on the Aikiweb again. It's beneath us all to do so.

Oh well. Looks like a good portion of my edifice was built on sand. I never would have thought that the digestive tract bit was about overeating. I guess I have to retract the portions of what I said that had to do with anti-gay slurs, as they apparently don't apply. In this context, my harping on the grammatical errors seems pretty irrelevant too.

Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote: . As far as the positive aspect of training in only one sex, okay hold on. I will simply say that when training the human body it is far easier to explain certain aspects of the training if one does not have to concern oneself with ofending a woman. I know many Senseis have no problem with this and I admire them, however Chris LI was pretty close to home when he said that teaching in a dojo like mine would be very easy and he might not think much of the challenge.

All I can say is, sorry to hear this.

I had thought, if I ever made it to Florida, gee, I'd like to train with Dan, he's a friend of Dennis', cool.

I don't go where I'm not wanted.

I've proved myself in all-male dojo, changed in the broom closet (I was scaring the boys in the locker room), gone to the x-ray room, fought on while bleeding (under the skin and over it) and don't really give a damn who's in the changing room as long as they're interesting to talk to.

It's been very interesting to be the only female in the room at times, and be standing in the front of the room teaching.

I think adults should be able to deal with other adults regardless of gender (adopted or inherited). I find it immature, of either male or female budoka, to make this division in life or training.

Too bad.

I'll let people speculate as to whose loss your decision is.

mle

um, Chuck wants to know what aspects of training one can better explain in a single sex group?????? maybe he's just an insensitive lout... ;-)

Women are part of life. Women can be dangerous. Women can be faced with danger. Aikido is about self defence, so IMO women should be part of the dojo.

Are women inherently weaker? Smaller, on average, which can be a disadvantage, but not always. And I've seen women put up with things that would make most men cringe. If they are tough enough (and it isn't that hard in most dojos I've been in), they should be allowed in.

Just so you know, Daniel, I don't waste time on people I don't respect. I was on a committee which tried to get you nominated as a teacher for an Aikido-L seminar, and I voted for you, so I have to hope there's hope.

Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote: Interesting

That it is.

I like men, I'm married to one, I count among dear friends, males. Frankly I sometimes get along with men better, I love the same things, in many ways. I also look pretty good in a dress (I'm sure my male friends might too, but I never ask .

So, what do you do when Patty Sensei comes to town? pretend she was never female? I don't get this dichotomy. If you're married to an Important Shihan, you're somehow transmuted into nonoffensive nonsexuality? Please explain.

When I see the term "man's man" I think of Rock Hudson.

Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote: I read the word bigot. I read mysoginist. I read bitter. I read angry. I read a lot of things from a lot of people who clearly are not in my peer group and who really cannot judge me. Nor should they try.

Um, what peer group? who might they be? I've trained a couple times with your buddy and a personal favorite of mine, Dennis Hooker. He didn't seem to care what sex I was.

And we didn't argue about who bought the beer, either (I think we both got Barq's).

Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote: What it comes down to my friends is pesonal freedom. You join an aikido dojo for lot of reasons. When someone wants to come here we start with an interview. He has the choice to participate or not. I have the choice to invite him to watch a class. We both, then have the choice to decide if we want to train together. Sometimes we don't agree and as it is my dojo, I always win these disagreements. That is as it should be.

I also belong to a dojo which is carefully selected. Here in Germany, I am the only member. So far. Frankly I'd like some company, get Sensei on the mat more often. ;-)

As a person who is about to commence teaching an all-female group, the Girl Scouts, I have a few comments to share with you.

I would constantly encourage "my girls" to train with men whenever they get the chance. They desperately need the practice. Who will be assaulting them? for the most part, men. Who has been traumatizing them most of their lives (if they are suffering the same things I suffered) men. So, ask yourself, why do I still insist on training with men? because to do otherwise is to deny statistics, cold hard crime statistics. Who needs to learn how to fight? or END fights by strategy, or violence, if need by? Women.

And you, teacher of some reputation and respect, would deny them that for selfish reasons of peace and quiet. The only other teacher I know of who does that is Don Angier and I refuse to speculate publicly why.

Are you obligated to teach women? depends on your sense of social responsibility. I feel that I am, and so I shall.

A large part of my personal healing came from training with men, and just training in a women's dojo, much as I wanted to at the time, wouldn't have done the trick.

Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote: I still believe in personal freedom and in a man's choice to make his own decision about what concerns him. Sort of like O'Sensei. Do you folks really believe that he would train just anyone who walked up and said "here's my money, gimme aikido!"?

I have never walked up to an instructor and expected "free" wisdom whether it included money or not.

I put my soul in the hands of my instructor, and contribute to the welfare of the dojo and maintain it. I have run seminars, made web sites, interviewed and recruited students, etc. I conducted a divorce with a fellow student and trained with him at the same time, in a dojo I helped start. It ain't all been roses.. lots of thorns in there. I didn't scream like a woman and run away, nosirree, I stuck in there and bled.

Wait.. I'm not a man.. I'm not supposed to do that! Oh well.

Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote: Or Mitsugi Saotome Shihan. He sends out personal invitations to his top 20 instructors each year and all head down to Sarasota and train at the Shihan taining facility. Simply put, if you are not invited - dont come. It is Sensei's choice who he wants on his mat. He has the freedom to choose.

How many females does Saotome sensei include in this invitation? I know of at least one personally.

Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote: All the angry women in this world can train in every other aikido dojo, anywhere. The non-angry ones too. As was asked by someone, why would you want to? We train hard here and it not about love. Did I mention that I have a waiting list to join this dojo? Those people are exercising their right to express personal freedom. Just like I did in my last post.

Ignorance, especially willful ignorance in the face of knowledge and talent, pisses me off.

Nope, not sorry. No reason to be. Face the fact that I am angry, hell, I've been groped, abused, raped, what do you want?

Would you be angry? No? What's wrong with you?

My choice, who I train with. I know male sensei who gauge the health of their dojo by the number of female students they have.

Your choice... and indicative of your character.

Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote: Perhaps 'they' will all end up here. Good for you , good for me. I'm sorry I made some of you so angry or that you seemed to be hurt by my desire to associate with whomever I chose to the exclusion of an entire gender, but that is my right. I earned it.

As I earned my right to be on the mats of some of the more respected budo teachers (Nishio, Bryner, Zdenek, Hussey, Clark, Gordon, Wilby, Skoss, Friday, Ikeda....), through my heart and through the dues I have paid and the injuries I have sustained proving that I am, indeed, mortal. Female, strong, and mortal.

Man's man, huh. Try being a woman's man. Your wife will appreciate it! LOL! *abject apologies to our ever-civil Jun*

Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote: I like women. I just don't like training them. They constantly whine about one thing or another and if they're cute then the guys are like a pack of dogs. I have had too many occasions when a wife stared to cry because her husband did something because... something happened at home last night. I have had too many couples walk out not speaking to each other. I have had too damn many guy posturing over some woman on the mat who did a nikkyo pin too long with some other guy.

Ah. Here is your problem. You have some extremely immature students. I have never even HEARD of such a thing. I have trained with my ex-husband on the mat and we managed our own conflicts silently and nicely thank you very much.

THAT'S Southern gentility for you, not all this angst and hoo-rah.

I didn't whine when my shoulder was separated. I didn't whine when my ankle was smashed. I didn't even cry. I didn't whine when Bob Bryner (7th dan) demonstrated with some firmness all the places available for atemi in the nikajo pin (with audible thuds) on my body. I thanked him silently, because he had done this in a slightly misinformed San Antonio dojo where all the men were afraid I would break if they played with me. Bob proved them wrong. Then his wife came along and thumped some sense into them herself, and we all had a great time together.

Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote: I no longer have that. I have wa. There is harmony on my mat and the only thing we argue about is who will buy the beer.

I think you're a man of great talent, and you're short-changing yourself. It's like watching a judoka who will only do kata and not randori/shiai. I don't know what kind of people you've been playing with, but I've been dealing with folks of a far different caliber, and I've never had your problems. Never even heard of them. I was raised by an East Texas Redneck male who taught me to shoot, ride, fix cars and wear purty hats at Easter. His son never took to the woods like I did, so he took me. And we had fun.

God save us from short-sighted, fearful, prejudiced (with solid blinders in place) individuals.

If it was one night a week, I'd be cool with it.

One for women, one for men. A blanket policy bothers me because, as I said, it's a lost chance in training for all parties. Aikido is in how you manage your emotional life, how you hold your own center, as much as anything you do with your body. Do less and you miss the point. Might as well just be doing jujutsu. ;-D Like me.

Shaddup and train on.

If you're in Florida and female, train on with Dennis Hooker and Alan Dryesdale.

mle

Ms. Gordon,

Well, what can I say to that? You started out respecting me then became so disrespectful I can't even imagine the pain you must be feeling.

Do you see that this is one of the reasons that I choose to distance myself from women for 4.5 hours of the 112 hours a week that I am awake?

I'm sorry, that was an attempt at humor when humor is clearly not called for.

You are obviously in great pain. You have been groped, abused and raped and that would make anyone want to lash out. If I were a woman who had been groped, abused, and raped I would want to emasculate every living man on the planet prior to cutting their throat.

So I understand your rage. I understand your desire for lashing out and I realize that I represent, here, a target for you to attack that is representative of all that is anethma to you. I am a big man and my shoulders are wide and strong. I can take the hits. And I will here. For you.

But can't you work your way back through everything I have said here and see the goodness in this dojo? The fine men who love their wives and family? The wonderful women who support their husbands in the pursuit of Aikido? Can't you see these men working in the gardens and taking arrangements of flowers home to their wives? The wives and girlfriends cooking and making their favorite dishes for dojo parties and seminars? Children running around the grounds playing with our dogs? This is a healthy place, happy and free of the anger and pain associated with they type of people who would grope and abuse and rape.

And all of the abuse that you heap upon us does not make us less.

Alan Drysdale and his lovely wife Anita trained here and each time she stepped on the mat I stood in awe of her courage, but my heart was in my throat and I feared for her each instant. I found myself changing my lesson plan to accomodate for her being on the mat. When she tested for shodan I was so proud, but I was terrified. Alan is correct. Women should certainly train and in his dojo they do. And he knows perfectly well that that they have here. My decision to exclude women now is well documented here as are all the reasons.

If you would feel more comfortable training in Titusville with Alan or at Shindai with Dennis, then by all means do so. They are fine men and wonderful instructors. They have dedicated their lives to teaching Aikido as have I and the only difference is that I can no longer accept the fear and responsibility of watching a woman put herself in harms way

Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote: Alan Drysdale and his lovely wife Anita trained here and each time she stepped on the mat I stood in awe of her courage, but my heart was in my throat and I feared for her each instant. I found myself changing my lesson plan to accomodate for her being on the mat. When she tested for shodan I was so proud, but I was terrified.

Here's an alternate perspective. I'm not a woman, but I'm physically quite small - about average size for a man in Japan, but small and thin by US standards (especially on the east coast). When I first started Aikido my instructor was a large and powerful man who was afraid to throw me (at least, relative to me ) because he feared that he might injure me. To tell you the truth, I resented it then, and I think that I'd probably resent it if I were a woman as well. While it's good to have people care about you, I also want them to respect my decision to step on the mat and take my own risks.

Basically, I had to push him into throwing me by attacking him as hard as I could each chance I got - he eventually got over his fear that a smaller person can't also be tough. OTOH, he also had similar problems throwing women strongly, and I'm not sure that I would have been able to overcome his cultural conditioning in that case.

Best,

Chris

This is really an interesting discussion. Open hearts that stretch around the globe. Amazing!
Thanks everyone.

Regards,

In the mid-seventies when I was a student in the US, I trained with the local Aikikai organisation. At that time a group started a women's-only dojo and I for one was quite unhappy about it, since it seemed to offend against basic ideas of fairness and equality in aikido training. Members of the same group were quite happy to throw the men around at demonstrations, but not, it seemed, to train on the same terms. The (Japanese) shihan was completely unconcerned, since he thought it was an American thing.

Now, many years later, I have have come to be aware that "the same terms" are rarely the same. The matter of how a culture deals with sexual identity is complex and aikido is culture-based. The extent to which it is culture-based is an essential area of study for me.

In the aikido world in Japan (NB. my experience is solely Aikikai), male/female sexual differences tend to be emphasised in the organisation, perhaps a reflection of Japanese society as a whole, but to be minimised during actual training. A close friend of mine at the Aikikai Hombu was once told by Kisaburo Osawa Sensei to seek out women partners during training because he had too much upper-body strength and needed to learn to use his hips more. It seems to me that Osawa Sensei was taking account of obvious sexual differences, but seeking to minimise them during training, rather than emphasise them.

Best regards,

Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote: Ms. Gordon, Well, what can I say to that? You started out respecting me then became so disrespectful I can't even imagine the pain you must be feeling.

Dan, I'm sure you're a very sweet man, and I don't mean to be disrespectful (I also suffer from Inappropriate Humour Disease) but I did want to give you a peek into why you are being taken to task. I meant to be severe, not rude.

The pain you hear from me is old.

If it weren't for the kind and generous men who showed me appropriate outlets I would never be as functional, as bold and trusting, as happy as I am today.

If they all thought as you did, I could never have come as far as I have.

You seem to have room there in FL for your "boy's club", I know you can't throw a rock there (in FL) without hitting some shihan or other. Plenty of choices.

I always enjoy hearing Chris Li's POV, I am an unusually large, strong woman (5'8" and strapping but not too fluffy) and I used to get the giggles when someone handled me delicately.

Course now it's several years later and I've a host of chronic injuries, but then, so do most male practicioners my age.

Are we not all mortal? do not all our bodies fail, with time?

I'm glad you got to train with Anita, but if she couldn't change your mind, or Patty Sensei couldn't, then I've not got a chance.

Like a thousand other things I'd like to change and can't, I've just gotta let you go.

There's a ton of practicioners out there who see only a gi and a training partner.

mle

Emily Dolan Gordon (mle) wrote: I always enjoy hearing Chris Li's POV

Hey, feel free to come change in my locker room anytime .

Best,

Chris

Ms Gordon,

I will be in Germany next year to teach a seminar in Frankfurt. I'm not sure of the dates. If you would care to, please attend the seminar as my guest. There will be other women on the mat.

This whole thing has been blown so far out of proportion. It is making me reconsider my decision. Perhaps I will allow women to train here again. Knowing what you have read about this, do you really think that would make anyone happy? Do you really think that one, single, male dojo IN THE WHOLE WORLD really effects Aikido? I'm actually quite flattered that anyone would even consider that what I do here is so important or monumental, but I know that it isn't true. I think people like willing targets and I have made myself a large one. Its okay, I am big man, blah, blah...

If the world aikido community were measured from one to ten and on one side is a school that teaches only women, does it not follow that the opposite extreme is a school for men? And that both extremes are within a base norm? If one school teaches no hard falls at all and one only break falls, don't they comprise the extremes of both possibilities and by defining the edges of 'the extreme left or right' get included in the norm? Without extremes, we are mired in the norm and we need far limits to expand the norm.

The issue here is whether people's opinions about what happens in a private dojo are worth the electricity to publish them. I think they are. And I have listened carefully. I hope you have, too. Ms Gordon, but I sense that you missed something in my posts. We can talk about it over bratwurst and beer, I hope.

Oh, my wife said to check the www.shoshindojo.com link and go to our German school, the information is posted there.

DG Linden wrote:

"Do you really think that one, single, male dojo IN THE WHOLE WORLD really effects Aikido? I'm actually quite flattered that anyone would even consider that what I do here is so important or monumental, but I know that it isn't true."

On the contrary, Mr. Linden. What does the world consist of aside from each individual's actions?

Best,

Deb