What do you think?

Dominic Toupin wrote: Hi everyone But I'm tired to read post from Szczepan Janczuk (Nagababa). It's always negative, the aikido from this sensei is poor, that demonstration had nothing to do with aikido and the best one that I can remember :" Someone who train hard never talks in the dojo"..

Dont be melodramatique, Dominic.
I'm not negative, I state the reality. It is not my fault, that they had poor training.
One must face and accept the realit as it is, you like it or not. You can't live with rose eyeglasses -- not if you pretend to do Budo or MA. Illusions in aikido are very dangerous.

George S. Ledyard wrote: Once again, I find myself in a position to agree with he of the unpronouncable name... Szcepan, while not someone I would want running public relations anywhere, is correct in many of the things he is saying.

I'm happy to read your opinions. Looks like you didn't loose all these years of training This is very rare these days

This is not true. There are tons aikido very high quality around. But not on this video.

Man, if their aikido is bad I'm in trouble!

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: Dont be melodramatique, Dominic. I'm not negative, I state the reality. It is not my fault, that they had poor training. One must face and accept the realit as it is, you like it or not. You can't live with rose eyeglasses -- not if you pretend to do Budo or MA. Illusions in aikido are very dangerous.

I wonder if Claude Berthiaume Shihan, your sensei will have the same opinion of you, Szczepan Janczuk. You miss the point here. This is a demonstration in front of CHILDREN to show what is aikido at another level. You don't need to strike like a boxer to show children what is aikido... Just think about it and talk to your shihan about it. Maybe a lesson from someone with more experience than you could help you understand the true meaning of training in aikido.

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: O sensei was able to perfectly know what and how his students practice by only listening sounds coming ffrom dojo.

Well, so they say, but they also say that he had psychic powers and was possessed by gods, so who knows?

Anyway, I'll agree with your general premise - the attacks weren't worth much.

Best,

Chris

For Szczepan, so fond of quoting O Sensei, something O Sensei was reportedly fond of saying "never to criticize other martial artists".

As for the video, it was a demo.

I have no idea who the girls were, how long they've trained etc. it's not important. There were times in the footage where things seemed to stop flowing, the attacks were light, but it was a demo, and as such, it was nice to watch. It may not have been everyone's cup of tea but that doesn't matter, does it? My training is my training, my concerns are where I break down and stop flowing, it's hard enough to keep practicing for myself let alone worrying about anyone else. I can't even apply the principles of Aikido to stay out of posting in this thread . Obviously I have a lot of practice to get on with.

'Bryan does tenkan of steel and leaves thread'

Let's not take Szcepan aka NagaBaba too seriously. It is a shame he can not enjoy the beauty of the kids demonstrating their art.

Definition for Naga:
1. designation of supernatural beings, snakedemons, sometimes represented in human form with a snake's hood in the neck, sometimes as mixed forms, half man half snake. They are distinguished by devout reverence toward the Buddha. Their sworn enemies are the Garuda, winged beings resembling the griffin
2. A Naga is a fictional creature from the Monster Rancher anime and video game franchise.
3. The Naga is a cocktail with a refreshing taste. .

Definition of Baba:
1. term of respect for an old man
2. A reverential prefix, added to the name of a holy man of merit and renown, like the English prefix Rev. before clergymen.
3.a small, rich sponge cake, usually soaked in rum.

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: I'm not negative, I state the reality. It is not my fault, that they had poor training. One must face and accept the realit as it is, you like it or not. You can't live with rose eyeglasses -- not if you pretend to do Budo or MA. Illusions in aikido are very dangerous.

Szczepan,
I don't think it's a matter of stating "reality". I'll get a little philosophical and say none of us ever adequately expresses "the reality" of a situation. Each of us expresses what we think reality is and there's always something which is not entirely correct, in my opinion, and that includes your own perceptions, which may be incredibly insightful.
I disagree that what we saw wasn't Aikido. Aikido is a path, in my limited opinion. Few of us do Aikido in the strictest sense, where we're truly in tune with the universe around us, and if we do, it's rare. Aikido, in my opinion, is the act of becoming more in tune. If it's not as I just described, then I seriously doubt even you do "real" Aikido very often, though of course I have no way of knowing one way or the other.
That said, I do appreciate your honesty. You're right that illusions are dangerous, and sometimes we probably need people to state things bluntly to challenge us to do better. It's a valid point of view in my opinion. One can be blunt. Just be ready for the response such stern language inspires in people, and don't wonder where it comes from.
Take care,
Matt

George S. Ledyard wrote: Once again, I find myself in a position to agree with he of the unpronouncable name... Szcepan, while not someone I would want running public relations anywhere, is correct in many of the things he is saying..

I have to agree with Ledyard Sensei. It's a dangerous thing to agree with someone that everyone is "after" so I hide behind George Ledyard's careful comments because I feel that while Szcepan seems to have a reputation for saying "things like that", we may be allowing that prejudice to decide for us in advance that he's wrong when he might be right.
I will speak for myself here though. A question was asked as to what we thought and the original poster enjoyed the clip and thought it was wonderful. Personally, I have never liked that way of doing Aikido or the "look" that it has. I also must add that there are some styles that have that look. It's a large, round kind of Aikido where the ukes are flowing pretty easily with the nage so it has more of a choreographed look than I'm comfortable with. The problem with the super cooperation is that in my mind, Aikido is not the uke joining the nage's motion but the nage creating the harmony by matching the uke and drawing the uke into his motion. What distinguishes between hard and soft is what happens after that.
In Aikido training, there is a measure of cooperation in the training to prevent injury. For example, the uke is asked to attack in a certain way. The measure of reality then is based on the sincerity of the attack and if the nage really does Aikido (which is matching him and actually locking the centers together and taking the uke for a ride.) The theory and the reality are two different things. I think that Aikido has in fact suffered a watering down in that we are gradually following and imitating forms and are losing the reality of that experience. That's what I think Szczepan is seeing and stating although be it in an indecorous way. I know that I can't do the things that I have been taught but I am practicing them and I am amazed at how difficult it is to train the body to do what I have just described.
I hate to say this but all things in this world aren't equal. The demo the girls made should be applauded. It shows what they have accomplished at this point in their training. The problem may be that we may not all agree if this is the endpoint or a rather a marker in a much longer path to follow.
Best wishes,

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: Hi Anne Marie, This is not true. There are tons aikido very high quality around. But not on this video. This topic is not about me, so relax your shoulders and lets go back to the topic.

My post was on topic you dope. I'm critiquing your commentary of the video. Your put your words out here on the internet and as a result they are subject to criticism and interpretation. I still challenge you to make your "all powerfully martial effective" aikido video and post it on the web so we can all critique it here. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

If a post begins, "What do you think?", it asks for opinions. There are bound to be disagreements because different people look at different things, just like different people seek more or less martial content in their aikido. If you want to be more specific perhaps the post should have read, "What do you think of the.........., grace, fluidity, timing, ukemi, blending, martial intent? etc.etc."
I stand behind my original comments and I totally agree with the concept of energy fields, as a metaphor, to explain one of the great shortfalls within general aikido practice. Having trained a few times now with Rob John's teacher, Akuzawa, I can safely say that a lot of high graded godans and rokudans would have trouble dealing with his level of intent, maintained within a grace and flexibility that is startling.
I'll say it again. it's a nice demo, but is it aikido? Ledyard Sensei calls it aiki of movement, fair enough. I've stood opposite him with a bokken in his hands and I felt his intent. I dont know if I would really move if attacked in the way I saw on the video, nothing coming at me. One last point it is incorrect to say that you can't feel things through a video. If you've been at it long enough you sure can.

Robert John wrote: But the person that brought them up as an example should probably rethink what they consider to be good/solid/efficient "movement" (in any activity, not just aikido) FWIW

Hi Robert,

that would be me,

I came across this clip and enjoyed it so much, I'd just like to see if you agree with me that is a fine demonstration of the beautiful art of aikido. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df76...d&search=Aikido What do you think? is it the aikido you aspire to, or is it not 'martial' or 'realistic' enough for your taste? Just curious regards, Mark

I'm not sure I need to heed your advice about rethinking what I consider to be good/solid/efficient movement, simply because I enjoyed watching a nice demo of the 'beautiful art of aikido'.

I knew that there would be reactions to it and my curiosity about the reactions was what prompted me to post the clip. And to construct the question as it was asked.

I did not hold it up as 'this aikido is perfect or stronger or better than anyone elses' I just held it up as an enjoyable demo of aikido.

I agree with George's post about the low level of intent in the attacks, and his points about higher levels of attack in higher levels of practice.

To say that it is 'not aikido' is plainly flawed. Aikido has principles and if they are present then it 'is' aikido just maybe not 'your' aikido. IMO it is perfectly ok to say as many have done that "the attacks could be more realistic", or I prefer aikido practice to be more 'martial', but to write it off completely diminishes the speakers standing within the community.

We are all practicing an amazing art, one that develops the mind / body and spirit towards greater co-ordination. The aikidoka in the demo were practicing their aikido which I ( and it seems many of you ) enjoyed watching.

Go back to the dojo and continue to practice your own aikido, non of us are beyond correction or criticism ( just ask your sensei )

Robert, if you want to know what I think good solid efficient movement is... attack me

Anyway, this thread has produced some interesting comments, let's keep them objective, and try to accept that aikido may be 'wider' than we think it is.

regards,

Mark

The demo was pretty. Transitions between the roles of Uke and Nage were fluid. Techniques looked pretty and fluid also. The range of techniques shown also gave a great spectrum of Aikido waza. Those were the positives imo.

My other impressions on the demo were already dealt with by Mr. Ledyard and Mr. Janczuk to some extent.

In the end it comes down to what one's goal in training is imo. Aikido as Budo does not suffer effectiveness for grace or vice versa.

LC

Szczepan Janczuk, who are you? Do you practice Aikido? If so what dojo? Is is affiliated with a know orgaization? Who is or has been your sensei? How long have you been practicing? What rank are you?

Since you are a regular contributor to Aikweb forums, you should be more upfront about yourself. Put more information in your profile about yourself. It would help in deciding how much merit to place on your opions.

I did not hold it up as 'this aikido is perfect or stronger or better than anyone elses' I just held it up as an enjoyable demo of aikido.

I was going to mention that. You simply threw something up in the air and asked what people thought of it. Some thought it was nice, others saw pro's and con's, others were critical. I can hardly debate on what Aikido is. I look at the level I'm at and like I mentioned above, if their not doing Aikido then I don't want to know what the heck I'm doing - if anything because it will be disappointing. Problem here is you have to define what Aikido is, which is different from person to person obviously.

To me Aikido is helping someone even though I don't like them, putting someone else's safety (including uke) above my own and looking for non violent resolutions to problems as much as the "physical" aspect of Aikido.

Mark asked what people thought of the video and people answered honestly. It seems to me the biggest point of contention in the thread is the delivery of some peoples opinions that start to take on a negative flavor.

David Skaggs wrote: Definition for Naga: 1. designation of supernatural beings, snakedemons, sometimes represented in human form with a snake's hood in the neck, sometimes as mixed forms, half man half snake. They are distinguished by devout reverence toward the Buddha. Their sworn enemies are the Garuda, winged beings resembling the griffin 2. A Naga is a fictional creature from the Monster Rancher anime and video game franchise. 3. The Naga is a cocktail with a refreshing taste. . Definition of Baba: 1. term of respect for an old man 2. A reverential prefix, added to the name of a holy man of merit and renown, like the English prefix Rev. before clergymen. 3.a small, rich sponge cake, usually soaked in rum.

WoW David!
Major congrats! You did very nice research, in fact, you are very close to the Reality

For Szczepan, so fond of quoting O Sensei, something O Sensei was reportedly fond of saying "never to criticize other martial artists". As for the video, it was a demo.

I don't criticize OTHER martial arts. I don't like this 'aikido' demo. What we see it is not martial art There isn't even ONE element that can qualifie the demo as martial art.

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: WoW David! Major congrats! You did very nice research, in fact, you are very close to the Reality

Just as I thought, you are a small, rich sponge cake, usually soaked in rum that likes to drink cool refreshing cocktails.

David Skaggs wrote: Let's not take Szcepan aka NagaBaba too seriously. It is a shame he can not enjoy the beauty of the kids demonstrating their art. Definition for Naga: 1. designation of supernatural beings, snakedemons, sometimes represented in human form with a snake's hood in the neck, sometimes as mixed forms, half man half snake. They are distinguished by devout reverence toward the Buddha. Their sworn enemies are the Garuda, winged beings resembling the griffin 2. A Naga is a fictional creature from the Monster Rancher anime and video game franchise. 3. The Naga is a cocktail with a refreshing taste. . Definition of Baba: 1. term of respect for an old man 2. A reverential prefix, added to the name of a holy man of merit and renown, like the English prefix Rev. before clergymen. 3.a small, rich sponge cake, usually soaked in rum.

Thats Just Hilllarious....Szczepan is polish and in polish..NagaBaba simply means naked woman....lol

Paul Nowicki wrote: Thats Just Hilllarious....Szczepan is polish and in polish..NagaBaba simply means naked woman....lol

is this true Szcezepan? do you have something to hide?

Paul Nowicki wrote: Thats Just Hilllarious....Szczepan is polish and in polish..NagaBaba simply means naked woman....lol

I apologize. I was wrong. By definition are you a naked polish women who likes to eat rum cake and drink cocktails?

Man Mark, look what you started...

I'd love to see Ron and Szcezepan put a demo together, post it on the web and let us tear it about for them, too. I don't know who said but there is a lot of armchair quarterbacking going on here.

Well, Anne Marie, I feel slightly offended......I did my best to be inoffensive, polite, and stick to things that anyone could see and agree with or disagree with without personal attacks. I specifically did NOT tear anything down. The reason I spent so much time typing and thinking about a response was because I felt the effort of the participants deserved serious thought and evaluation. I think many people here have done the same...thought long and hard about their opinions, and stated them clearly and without malice.

Do you feel George Ledyard is out of bounds with his comments?

Best,
Ron (One of these days I will post some video I hope, though it may be a while yet...)

Ron Tisdale wrote: Man Mark, look what you started...

Who me...? I had no idea

Best, Ron (One of these days I will post some video I hope, though it may be a while yet...)

I think I'd think long and hard about that if I were you Ron, the forum is hard to please

regards,

Mark

This seems like a thinly disguised "my aikido is better than your aikido "thread. What works for you.... George. and Ron and Szewhatever..is not going to be the same for a woman who weighs 110 pounds. You all are judging something by how it looks not by how it feels.

I hope men keep thinking the way you guys do so when you get flattened some day by a soft powerful woman you will be caught unawares.
Mary

Whatever Mary! I was the first to point out Szczepan's bluntness but he, George, Ron all had a point ins saying that it was not martial. The attacks were weak and the attacks and techniques were jumpy. There is no need to feel the techniques to see whats happening on this demo. It was a pretty demo that did what it was supposed to do but it did not have the feel or look of a martial art.

Mary Eastland wrote: This seems like a thinly disguised "my aikido is better than your aikido "thread. What works for you.... George. and Ron and Szewhatever..is not going to be the same for a woman who weighs 110 pounds. You all are judging something by how it looks not by how it feels. I hope men keep thinking the way you guys do so when you get flattened some day by a soft powerful woman you will be caught unawares. Mary

I didn't think much of the attacks either - and I usually run around 125 pounds, which isn't very far from 110, so I have a pretty good idea of what it's like. Anyway, George has certainly been around long enough (30 years?) to feel plenty of soft powerful women.

Best,

Chris