Tanto techniques

Hello

If/how/when/which/etc. tanto techniques have you learned? I don't mean unarmed defender vs. knife but knife vs. knife; knife vs. unarmed; knife vs. bokken and jo techniques. Are there some sepcific forms or are the tanto movements just little modifications from the unarmed ones?

Jorgen
Estonian Aikikai
Riveta Sportsclub

Originally posted by Jorx If/how/when/which/etc. tanto techniques have you learned? I don't mean unarmed defender vs. knife but knife vs. knife; knife vs. unarmed; knife vs. bokken and jo techniques. Are there some sepcific forms or are the tanto movements just little modifications from the unarmed ones?

Hello Jorx,

If you want to see the results of a REAL tantojutsu knife vs knife session, check this site out: (this guy did survive ...barely!)

WARNING: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC

http://www.swordforumbugei.com/ubb/F...ML/000087.html

After seeing this, the only technique I want to work on is AVOIDANCE!

Regards,

Well gee thanks...

That was not exactly what I had in mind - you didn't actually answer any of my questions.
There are situations where you can't flee but have to take action. And I'd say knife vs. knife is far better option than unarmed vs. knife.

The point is what would've been the outcome if one of those was trained in the art of knife? We also train for to be confident in surprising situations... so it should include the knife? Or not?

If/how/when/which/etc. tanto techniques have you learned? In your daily Aikido practice I must add...

Jorgen

Originally posted by Jorx Well gee thanks... That was not exactly what I had in mind - you didn't actually answer any of my questions.... ...The point is what would've been the outcome if one of those was trained in the art of knife? If/how/when/which/etc. tanto techniques have you learned? In your daily Aikido practice I must add...

...I bet the guy in the photos also had something else in mind ...but that's beside the point.

We do practice tantojutsu kata in which both students attack and defend in a set pattern ...there's 8 different sets we do ...BUT (and it's a BIG but!) ...the number one technique we impress uopn the students IS avoidance! ...so I did answer your question ...you just didn't like the answer!

...your comment about it being different if they were 'trained' in the art of the knife really throws up a red flag!!! ...a person attacking you with a knife doesn't HAVE to be trained!!! ...if you think otherwise my friend you're in for the surprise of your life ...or end of it!

...the ULTIMATE technique in knife defense is DISTANCE! It's a short range weapon ...and within it's range it's more lethal than a gun (Don't take my word on it, reads this article on edged weapon case studies: http://pub43.bravenet.com/forum/fetc...num=3669957115
...so the secret is to put distance between you & the knife! ...and then utilize a superior weapon if you have one!

Reality sucks, doesn't it!

Originally posted by Jorx There are situations where you can't flee but have to take action. And I'd say knife vs. knife is far better option than unarmed vs. knife.

...Again, avoidance would be the best tatic here ...you just don't magically appear in the middle of a knife fight! There MUST have been a chain of events that led to this situation ...so just avoiding the whole thing is the best option. (ie: stay away from biker bars; control your middle finger during road rage; don't use the ATM at 2am, don't take the 'dark alley' short cut, etc)

...and even if your avoidance fails you and you do end up in a knife attack situation anyway, about the only thing you can count on is that you're going to get CUT. There are too many variables in such a dynamic situation to truly be 'ready' for it! Hey, the guy in the photos STARTED the fight ...he had everything in his favor, and he still got carved up like a Thanksgiving turkey!

...the knife stuff you learn in the dojo is really just FANTASY! Looks great on your shodan test, but will get you killed in a heartbeat out on the street! ...NEVER confuse the two and youl should be OK!

Sorry... Brian I guess I sounded a bit bitter... anyhow just for the record - I have been in a knifefight once, got out luckily.
And I think the avoidance thing I mean... everyone knows that...

I am more interested in your tantojutsu part Because I just don't know much about that - our knife techniques have been just modifications of others.

And to get the feel of the knifefight from a little different perspective - grab waterproof markers, put on some old white T-Shirts and go on oneanother.

I have tried that - and guess what - there where very little attack/defence situations where one came out "uncarved". It was rather both or none. Just the fact that you wanted to point out...

Jorgen

P.S. Knife is not actually a good weapon for an aikidoka 'cause it's more offensive than defensive. I like spray gas better - better range and the effect is more sure.

Originally posted by Jorx Sorry... Brian I guess I sounded a bit bitter... anyhow just for the record - I have been in a knifefight once, got out luckily. And I think the avoidance thing I mean... everyone knows that...

Hey, no apology necessary! We're just dicussing a very serious subject and I wanted to make sure it wasn't being handled flippantly.

I too have been in a knife defense situation ...lucky for me the guy was just posturing/threatening ...so it would be inaccurate to call it a 'knife attack'. Even more luckily I disarmed him and didn't get cut (...I was too young and stupid to just let it go or run).

The tantojutsu katas that we do at the dojo where I train involve different knife grips, slashes and/or thrust, one person is the attacker, the other the defender. Once you complete all 8, you switch roles and go thru it all over again. There're fun to do ...it's really an exercise in timing & spacing (ma-ai) rather than true knife techniques. That's about as detailed as I can get here in print ...it's more of a visual thing.

Regards,

IMHO, one of the post important aspects of fighting a blade is distancing. Another is the mental aspects of actually being cut. It is best to get training in the Filipino martial arts such as escrima, kali, or arnis which emphasize blade work. Tape the edge of the wooden tanto to develop some blade awareness. IMHO, most of the attacks and defenses I have seen taught in Aikido are not efficient or effective since most blades are used for ambush and assination as oposed to an open attack. Only an amateur would wave it around or let you see it before they try to sink it.

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD

Originally posted by SeiserL Only an amateur would wave it around or let you see it before they try to sink it.

I agree, but there is a reason for someone to show you the knife. It's used for threat purposes. Back off, give me your money or die! I picked this up from some guy who spent all of his time studying the results of knife fights. He claimed that if someone showed you the knife this is what they were often doing. Couldn't point you to a link though. I think I saw it in Black Belt Mag so take it for what it's worth.

In Daito style we practice all kinds of knife moves. For example we do Irimi Nage where you hook the uki's hand with the blade… On take down we bring the blade up against uki's throat and throw.

We have also done some really "Dark Side" moves where we end up having the uki controlled on the ground in a wrist/elbow joint lock. We then basically cut completely around the elbow. And when we stand up the only thing holding their arm together is the ball joint. POP! I told you it was dark.

Basically Aikido is based on sword movements, and you should keep this in mind when you do a move. You should also consider that a lot of moves in aikido are based on someone grabbing your hands because you are reaching for your knife or sword. Locking someone's wrist with a knife is twice as effective as locking it without.

If you are doing the move correctly, then the uki's body should react to the move the same way regardless if you are armed or not.

Training with tanto in Aikidi is not bad at all. It gives you a different feeling when attacking. Holding a knife is different from just striking with your fist... Also when you see someone holding a knofe you feel different about the situation. But do not forget that evere attack can be dangerous. So, actually it is your way of focusing a situation which is the most important thing to train. The knife makes the arm longer. The 'ma-ai' will change. This is the important thing to train. Not every knife has the same length and not every blade has the same form. So, don't focus on the weapon. Focus on the person who uses it.

I was also taught the 3 Cs of weapons work. First clear the path of the weapon. Next control the weapon and wepon arm. Third, counter. Not necessarily counter-attack.

IMHO, I would suggest training against the five angles of attack using a slicing not stabbing motion.

Please remember, most knife attacks are really ambushes and assinations.

Until again,

Lynn