Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: I don't believe there is any complete systems.

There is a distinction made within Asian martial arts about "complete systems" that I was referring to, Kevin. Arguing the semantics of whether something is ever truly "complete" is not what I meant. Whether O-Sensei ever got into the semantics of "self defense" or even "martial art" in quoted sayings, in order to establish a rhetorical point, is even sketchier.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Yeah that was a joke, everything I said was a joke ... Omei is a complete system, It is consisted of over 300 different styles of Kungfu, basically the best of the styles put in one, which also by the way perfectly complement each other. I know I study this system, My Sifu, who happens to be my closest friend and mentor, was rasied by a Chinese Priest. He learned this style, and I have seen much, felt more, and learned some. Im not suprised by your response, beause as hard as it is to find "real" Aikido, it is much harder to find real Kung Fu, expecially an Omei school. But regardless if you agree or not, I still stand by my comments about Aikido... Me personally I love Aikido, but to answer the critics honestly, one shouldnt look at Aikido as a complete fighting art, or "the answer". So in a way they are right, AIkido is more than just a fighting art.

Mike Fugate wrote: Yeah that was a joke, everything I said was a joke ... Omei is a complete system, It is consisted of over 300 different styles of Kungfu, basically the best of the styles put in one, which also by the way perfectly complement each other.

Hi Mike:

O-mei or "Er Mei" is a region around Er Mei mountain where there were/are some famous monasteries. To say "Omei Kung fu" is such a general name that it's almost meaningless. Er Mei has many styles of "kung fu"... there is no "Omei Kung Fu". Shaolin Ba Fa and many others would be the specific styles of the Omei region. "Omei" can't be a complete system anymore than "Georgia martial arts" would be a "complete system"... i.e., which style of martial arts from Georgia are you talking about?... same problem.

Is your sifu a westerner, by any chance?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Neil Mick wrote: Is this silly thread still going on?

Yeah, tell me about it.

Here: lemme settle it for everyone: Ikeda Sensei had it right, when he said: "Aikido works. YOUR Aikido may not."

AFAIK, every martial art you can name is backed by people who claim it worked in real life, including Aikido. So if people report using it in a real situation, that's the end of the debate as far as I'm concerned.

Now, can we put this aside and start arguing about important stuff, like politics??

Yeah, would a matchup between Condi and Hilary in '08 be the most genteel presidential race in history or what?

Mike Sigman wrote: There is a distinction made within Asian martial arts about "complete systems" that I was referring to, Kevin. Arguing the semantics of whether something is ever truly "complete" is not what I meant. Whether O-Sensei ever got into the semantics of "self defense" or even "martial art" in quoted sayings, in order to establish a rhetorical point, is even sketchier. Regards, Mike Sigman

I am tracking with lyou Mike. My comments were not directed specifically at your post, more or less in a general nature.

I just simply beleive that many of us get too caught up into the emotional issues surrounding fighting, self defense etc without really truly understanding the real core issues of why we are training. Everyone trains for different reasons, the problem is I think there is a great deal of cognitive dissonance that occurs in the process and the people that founded the arts do not match up with the people that are now studying them.

This is particularly true today in our society with Television and media and a society that is "civil" and less "martial" than in the past.

I don't pretend to have the answers to the quesitons or now what is exactly "right", I do feel that I have at least identified and had the "light switched on in my closet" so I can at least be aware of how our minds and paradigms affect what we percieve to be important about Martial arts and the expectations of what they will allow us to do.

There are ALOT of styles that make up the O-Mei system. To be honest I do not train in just one particular style from the O-Mei liniege. I study techniques, applications and yes thee are times when we will focus on lets say VingTsun or maybe Eagle Claw. Everything is all together into one style, basically a style made up of many. Yes my Sifu is of wester descent, but what does that have to do with this topic? He learned MA from a Shaolin monk who fled China, ( O-Mei Temple) this is why there isnt just one style covered. My teacher was raised from an early age until Grandmaster passed away. VERY different from other MA I have studied, not alot of talk, but alot of results. Very Hard,, and also Very Soft. Basically the beauty of what O-Mei is all about. But if someone one here wants a specific style that is a complete system....Try a style that is local to me...Hung Fa Yi Ving Tsun. Complete system is what "they" call it.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: I just simply beleive that many of us get too caught up into the emotional issues surrounding fighting, self defense etc without really truly understanding the real core issues of why we are training. Everyone trains for different reasons, the problem is I think there is a great deal of cognitive dissonance that occurs in the process and the people that founded the arts do not match up with the people that are now studying them.

I'm reminded of a conversation purported to have occurred between some well-known actor and Sir Lawrence Olivier (the actor). During the discussion the other person said something to the effect of, "Oh, Lawrence, why do we do it? Why do we give so much of ourselves, our insights, to the public." Olivier looked at him and said, "We do it for 'look at me', 'look at me', 'look at me' ".

In other words, behind a lot of the spiffy-sounding rationales for doing things, when you cut to the chase people are doing things for fairly simple and self-serving reasons, Kevin.

To add to the above anecdote, let me add one more. I saw a student ask a native-Chinese martial arts instructor, "What is the true philosophy of Taiji?". Having about had it with wannabe westerners playing "Little Taoist", he looked up and said, "The basic philosophy of Taiji is first to get through to their center and kill them.... if they kill you, your philosophy is no good."

Those two anecdotes of 'why we do things' and 'what we do them for' probably cover most things, when you cut to the chase.

FWIW

Mike

Mike Fugate wrote: There are ALOT of styles that make up the O-Mei system. To be honest I do not train in just one particular style from the O-Mei liniege. I study techniques, applications and yes thee are times when we will focus on lets say VingTsun or maybe Eagle Claw. Everything is all together into one style, basically a style made up of many.

More power to you, Mike, but doesn't that pretty much say something about those Dumb Ole Chinese that spend their lives working on one style, when you and your instructor can take the essence of 300 styles in a fairly short time? I wonder if it's genetics? Or maybe something else is at play here? VingTsun, BTW, has an interesting history (if you get past the one about the nun, etc.) and so does Eagle Claw/Pigua. However, they are not styles native to the ErMei region. The history of some of these things is fascinating and you might enjoy doing some research on them.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

wrote: The reason I started this thread was because I came here to look into trying another martial art. I checked out some classes and had a friend give me some lessons. I have found that Aikido has no practical application.

Huh?

If you are doing Judo or wrestling, then you would already be practicing submission holds.

wrote: AND IN REPONSE TO THE GUY ABOVE. SAYING THAT YOU WOULD USE EYE GOUGES IS A KEY SIGN OF SOMEONE WHO CAN NOT FIGHT FIGHT OR GRAPPLE. IT IS SAD THAT WITH ALL OF THAT TRAINING THAT IS WHAT YOU RELY ON. TRUST ME IF YOU GOT IN A FIGHT WITH A GOOD GRAPPLER OF ANY SIZE YOU WILL END UP IN A POSITION ON THE GROUND WHERE YOU CAN NOT USE THE EYE GOUGE.

Based on your statement above, you wouldn't last a second on a battlefield. Stick to your tournaments.

wrote: First off, I am a very nice guy. Also, my whole reason for sticking around is that no one has been willing to admit that aikido has limitations. All martial arts have their strengths and weaknesses, but the majority of people who have answered this thread seem to not be able to accept that fact and still think that Aikido is the ultimate martial art, no one has been able to step back and really take a look at how aikido is practiced and it's relationship to real altercations........

Absolutely no one has said or appeared to say this, therefore you will never get the answer you seek, if in fact you actually want an answer.

This thread has the earmarks of Troll like intentions and it's time for Jun to close it in my humble opinion.

Yeah, Eagle Claw, VT, Paqua arent native to Omei, but I already knew that...Omei is simply made up of Wudang (soft) and Shaolin (hard) to be short. One could spend an eternity explaining it....Also your whole statement about the "dumb ol chinese" and "genetics" is nothing more than ignorant to say. I am not, and dont have to explain the style i study and gain you approval in order for me to know what it is. I know and I understand why other dont , because not many study somthing that was brought straight from Shaolin. Im gonna go out on a limb and say that an older preist from Shaolin (O-Mei) knew what he was doing....and it had nothing to do with "popular" MA, but traditional. Im done with this topic....

Well the point is kinda moot because every one in this thread has a different opinion on what is "Aikido" what is "does not work at all" and what is "a fight".

To have some constructive arguments one should start on understanding these in the same way.

Anyway to you all anti-sport guys and TEH STREET is so much different from tournaments guys a big GET A GRIP from me. Most of these who talk like this couldn't eye-poke their way out of a wet paper bag.

Just a general thought: Is it not the fault of the Aikido community itself that such a strange discussion as this comes up, by often making exaggerated claims as to what Aikido can and can not?
I have never heard of local boxing gyms sending out flyers telling people that they can learn to effortloss fling multiple attackers through the air... simply by attending a couple of classes.
Strangely, that is precisely the thing that I have repeatedly seen coming from Aikido places.
So, it seems to me the sceptical questions are invited...

But I'm feeling contrary so I'll bite.

I've used aikido in one door situation, six bar/street altercations (four times with success ie controlling the situation to get away or in one case to put someone down, once getting me kicked unconscious though I was very drunk, once getting me into and back out of a very bad position), several non-fighting situations like falling out of trees etc, many times in sparring against karateka, kungfuists and mmaists...

It worked in some cases. Anyone who tries to say scientifically if it works or not is deluded. It depends on the person and too many other (very) variables!

[quote=....I have never heard of local boxing gyms sending out flyers telling people that they can learn to effortloss fling multiple attackers through the air... simply by attending a couple of classes.
Strangely, that is precisely the thing that I have repeatedly seen coming from Aikido places....[/QUOTE]

Where have you seen this?

I've trained in Tae Kwon Do and Hap Ki Do for the past 7 years. I've also did some cross training in Kempo. The techniques in Aikido can be used in a real life situation. As in any martial art, it depends on the martial artist ability. As for BJJ, it's probably the best submission art, but once you understand it, you can see it's weaknesses. As for the eye gouge, if it works, use it. There is no ref on the streets. Plus, Aikido is not an offensive art. It was designed not to hurt people, unlike NHB competition.

Oh, fer PETE'S SAKE: IS THIS SILLY THREAD STILL ONGOING????!

OK, dammit: THAT'S IT!! Come on: GRAB THE WRIST! You've done it now!!

(no, no: grab with the other hand...now, switch your stance...and....)

Michael Gallagher wrote: So if people report using it in a real situation, that's the end of the debate as far as I'm concerned.

+1!

Yeah, would a matchup between Condi and Hilary in '08 be the most genteel presidential race in history or what?

Equip 'em with Thai Kickboxing gear and set 'em up in front of a Jerry Springer audience: and I bet I could sell tickets for $350 a pop, easy!!

Neil Mick wrote: Oh, fer PETE'S SAKE: IS THIS SILLY THREAD STILL ONGOING????! OK, dammit: THAT'S IT!! Come on: GRAB THE WRIST! You've done it now!! (no, no: grab with the other hand...now, switch your stance...and....)

Neil, you've got to be kidding me??? This is coming from you? the guy that refuses to let any thread die for months in the open discussion area dealing with politics?

Have a nice day!

hello i'm an aikidoka from italy,i experienced with differents martial arts like ju jitsu judo kick boxing etc.i think that in case of real attack, anyone ask you what kind of martial art do you prefer,anyone call you before by phone you don't know what kind of attack is arriving in some cases can be more useful aikido technics than kick boxing technics.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Neil, you've got to be kidding me??? This is coming from you? the guy that refuses to let any thread die for months in the open discussion area dealing with politics? Have a nice day!

Oh WELL!!! Politics is ONE thing: but threads about Aikido "working," or not???

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Neil, you've got to be kidding me??? This is coming from you? the guy that refuses to let any thread die for months in the open discussion area dealing with politics? Have a nice day!

It's not going on for months, it's been years!

Uriah Gardner wrote: It's not going on for months, it's been years!

Jeez, you're right: I just checked the date of the first post.

Neil Mick wrote: Oh, fer PETE'S SAKE: IS THIS SILLY THREAD STILL ONGOING????! OK, dammit: THAT'S IT!! Come on: GRAB THE WRIST! You've done it now!! (no, no: grab with the other hand...now, switch your stance...and....)

Oi! You stole my line. You will be hearing from my boys from my Legal and Copyrights department. Oh! By the way it is GRAB MY WRIST (TM) to you.

Happy New Year everyone.

Boon.