Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Dan Harden wrote: Well be careful. Don't go over board. You can eat the pancakes, and I'll take all the internal ki jokes you care to dish out. Then I'll move and hit you with 6 oz gloves and actually let you in to try and throw me while "I imagine extending ki" and I will be more than happy to see who has something they want to learn after we're done. Just because one guy doesn't understand a method does nothing to invalidate or dimminish the method. Don't fall prey to the same ignorance -you- are accusing him of.

I mentioned ki because it pushes buttons and well, I was in a button pushing mood. My real point was in saying they talked about doing it, didn't test it, and moved on secure in the thought that they had now mastered every bjj guy on the planet.

From reading your posts I get the impression you test your stuff. That's a lot different. If you said, you can stop it like this, then got a bjj guy to work out with and tested it. That's GOOD martial training.

Don Magee wrote: As this could very well be my last post here at aikiweb (due to the content). I'm going to make one last shot at this and just be brutally honest.

Hi Don,
Don't give up on AikiWeb. Jun is a very gracious host, a true gentleman, and worth knowing. He's created a place where the content runs from wild speculation (Takeda's training, for example) to core Aikido techniques to Seminars and everything in between. It's a pretty good place to be at.

Don Magee wrote: No the question is how does the aikido person stop the takedown? More so than just the technique, how do you actually train to do it?

I didn't have time to write out my thoughts on this matter in my other post. I was going to post them in another forum, but, well, they're applicable here with your latest post.

So, how do you stop a takedown? Well, as we all laugh and joke about, we can use ki. But, the problem with that is -- "ki" has been translated and used as a definition for everything from heavenly-harmonious-merging-of-the-soul-and-universe to intent-driven-internal-rewiring.

As Dan and Tim Fong's posts point out, there is a whole different world out there for using "ki". I would hope that you'd keep an open mind about other schools and their training. You'll find yourself pleasantly surprised with some people and their training.

Anyway, there's certain exercises which have been posted here on AikiWeb quite a few times. They deal with contradictory forces in the body. (bear with me as I go through this) So, if you stand with your feet side by side, shoulder width apart and your arms out to your sides, use your intent to send a force out your arms and out your palms. If you just stand there and imagine this, it won't work. There really has to be a full force intent. In the very beginning, if your arms aren't feeling like they're coming out of their sockets, you aren't getting enough intent. (The reason this feels this way, IMO, is because most people use a lot of muscle to drive the intent in the beginning. As you progress, the use of muscle lessens and different feelings creep in.) So, you've got that going. Now, at the same time, use your intent to bring a force back into your palms, through your arms, and into your spine. Sometimes, beginners will actually, physically pull their scapulas together. (More muscle, but that goes away.) You have to get both going at once. If you aren't sweating after doing this for 2-3 minutes, you aren't using enough intent.

Then, you start working the spine the way you just worked the arms. The spine goes up and down, so you have to get the intent going up and down so that it stretches the spine out. Then pull the spine back together to get the contradictory force going.

Lastly, you work the legs. Each leg has a contradictory force going down into the ground and back up into the hara/center/dantien.

When all three are working, it builds a stability in the body that is hard to overcome. If your intent drops, the body becomes less stable. So, yeah, it's a lot of work to keep things going at first, but after time, you don't have to spend as much on "intent".

But, if you just start working the arms, you'll find that people will have a harder time collapsing them. Yeah, you'll still get your feet swept in judo because you're just working arms, but that's why you work all three.

You work these "intent" exercises until your loosen up your muscles and can get them going in a relaxed, solid manner.

And yes, it's well worth testing in an "alive" format when you get the chance. Not sure where you're located, but if I'm ever in the area, let me know and I'll try to stop by.

Mark

Dan Harden wrote: Well be careful. Don't go over board. You can eat the pancakes, and I'll take all the internal ki jokes you care to dish out. Then I'll move and hit you with 6 oz gloves and actually let you in to try and throw me while "I imagine extending ki" and I will be more than happy to see who has something they want to learn after we're done.

Let's see: a turkish guy asks how to defend himself with aikido against grapplers...

Option A: Study Aikido and learn the real internals under a competent instructor, i.e. you or very few others who are not available to him.

Option B: Study Aikido and learn how to grapple under a competent instructor, i.e. Judo/BJJ/MMA/Sambo/Yağlı güreş... who is teaching where he lives.

Which one do you recommend?

Salim Shaw wrote: Unfortunately, people like Philip Burgess are the typical modern Aikidoka.

Now there's a sterotype fo ya!

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: Let's see: a turkish guy asks how to defend himself with aikido against grapplers... Option A: Study Aikido and learn the real internals under a competent instructor, i.e. you or very few others who are not available to him. Option B: Study Aikido and learn how to grapple under a competent instructor, i.e. Judo/BJJ/MMA/Sambo/Yağlı güreş... who is teaching where he lives. Which one do you recommend?

Years ago on E-budo I had a fella ask me:
"I want to develop aiki to the point where I have usable skills.Should I stay in Aikido, or go to a Daito ryu dojo?"
To which I responded.
"If you have a really good Judo dojo in your area, walk in and ask them."
He did, and never left.
Answer your question?

These days I'd include BJJ. MMA is dicey as there are more and more grappling gyms opening up that I would go to experiment in but not learn in.

a) I would never train without internals-they are the single greatest advantage in the world-bar none.
b) Live training is the second greatest advantage in the world

Both of which need to compliment each other. Grappling practice; drill's coupled with punching, kicking, positional control, with continually trained internal power for increased speed and control and power generation is the bast way to maximise your game.
After all the hoopla, in the end good grappling is taught and learned through "kata" yes...kata- now called drills. The advantage of live training is trying to get it to work against someone who doesn't want it to work. Then...finding out just what an advantage internal power is in being able to knock someone out from one foot away when trying to make it work or in seeing guys get gassed fighting a body that is relaxed in motion and that feels like a steel belted radial all while using less energy to do so.

The really encouraging part for folks who want to remain in aikido is that training (a) offers power that gives the aikidoka a stunning advantage over those who train in (b) only. While I think aikidoka will start to look different in their movements and responses to a grappler, there method in doing so will be their aiki, able to deliver power and control...in spades.
No more need for turning and evading.

Dan Harden wrote: The really encouraging part for folks who want to remain in aikido is that training (a) offers power that gives the aikidoka a stunning advantage over those who train in (b) only. While I think aikidoka will start to look different in their movements and responses to a grappler, there method in doing so will be their aiki, able to deliver power and control...in spades. No more need for turning and evading.

I think the last sentence should have a disclaimer on it. No more need for turning™ and evading™. Turning and evading can still be practical strategy tools.

Mark Murray wrote: I think the last sentence should have a disclaimer on it. No more need for turning™ and evading™. Turning and evading can still be practical strategy tools.

Especially if being pursued by pit bulls!

Don,

Tim gives some good advice. I agree with his comments and observations concerning teaching aikido and extended KI and what not.

FWIW, I worked with Tim a little when he was over here on the east coat for the Aunkai seminar.

Tim, you weigh like what....145-155 pounds soaking wet?

Tim has been working hard on aiki, BTW I don't think he is an Aikidoka either by any stretch of the imagination.

Doing the Aunkai exercises and Jo staff work, Tim was very impressive and strong. I weigh about 90 lbs more than Tim for sure.

He will also tell you that he is not any where near and expert level, but a rote beginner, which I would agree to, but much better and the conditioning drills, and internal skills stuff than I.

Anyway, has nothing to do with "he can kick my ass" or "yea I can't do it, but I can kick his ass" mentality. The thing is, that is impressive to see guys learn "Aiki" (Aunkai) and be able to do this stuff.

Just thought I'd throw that out there!

If you have time, it would be well worth it for you to spend time with Mike Sigman, Dan, or Ark...if only for a weekend. It will open your eyes to looking at aiki in a way that you may not have considered.

As you know, I share your same observations concerning aliveness, grappling, Judo, and BJJ.

I do have to laugh eating pancakes and talking about KI..I have done that very thing as well.

Don Magee wrote: As this could very well be my last post here at aikiweb (due to the content). I'm going to make one last shot at this and just be brutally honest.

Please don't do that, sir. I personally value your insight and would very much miss your contributions here.

Guys
What Don meant was he was going after the poster in a way that Jun may object to and thus it may be his last post as Jun would "card him" for it. He wasn't saying he was going to leave. I swear people skim posts and don't read.

Jun has had enough of the perosnal side of debating and is asking us to find a way to debate the subject not the people.
I fail occadionally and try to apologize and stay on point.

Exactly, I wrote my post, read it considered not posting it because it is a verbal attack and probably insulting, but I decided that the content was valuable enough to me to risk going against what is considered proper attitude. I just wanted to make it clear that I accept the consequences of any and all of my actions, I felt it was that important.

If I stop responding directly to a poster, it pretty much means that I have nothing left good/constructive to say, or I think he/she is full of crap. That is how I handle it.

Don Magee wrote: Exactly, I wrote my post, read it considered not posting it because it is a verbal attack and probably insulting, but I decided that the content was valuable enough to me to risk going against what is considered proper attitude. I just wanted to make it clear that I accept the consequences of any and all of my actions, I felt it was that important.

Don, I felt you were in keeping with the tone of the post you were replying to. Buck gave his impressions; you gave yours. I dig what he was saying about testosterone and competitive sports like MMA. I also think he was overly simplistic in his description, never mind the relative differences in what "testosterone driven" means to different people. The fact is you can't talk about a large group of people in simple terms because large groups always have a large variety. That's one of the reasons I tend to "retort" so much to folks I perceive as describing the Aikido community as this or that (something I think Buck was trying to do though I could be wrong of course).
For the same reason I was having difficulty forming a post of my own in this thread (I managed ) because taking a "grappler" and an "aikidoka" can mean taking any number of traits and abilities, all of which have more to do with the specific dojo/whatever those individuals actually spend their time training in. The art means little to me; it's what we do with the art which makes it what it is.
That said I don't see much different between grappling and aikido except that to me grappling implies more use of contractive forces (my assumption) while aikido as I understand it is purely expansive (relative to the center/hara). I've had people try to take me to the ground by pulling on my leg. This contractive motion makes my expansive efforts shoot my knee right into their chest. I'm not saying this is an accurate description of "grappling" because the more I pay attention, the more it seems that really at the highest levels, all arts begin to look the same...probably because at those levels people are realizing a more complete interaction with their body and we all share the same basic human shape.

I guess my posts have hit home for allot. I am sorry the reactions are not constructive but that is what happens when a cord is struck and they don't like it. And they run out of defenses and have to see things for what they are.

It is easy to dish it out, but harder to take it, criticism that is. This is an Aikido board and there is a wide range of serious Aikidoka of different styles and beliefs in what Aikido is and isn't. But we all agree on one thing that Aikido offers more then one thing. It is an art that is to be explored and it isn't reduced to a fight that lasts mins. Aikido is complex and allot of people don't have the patience to go the distance.

Aikido is often criticized because I think it is misunderstood by those on the outside and inside. O'Sensei wasn't definitive and was very artistic and skilled. Great artists are often misunderstood. Because of O'Sensei there have been great Aikidoka, martial artists, and those inspired and impressed by him from common folk to royalty all over the world. Aikido because of O'Sensei is internationally recognized and respected. Aikido is a common household world in many places for decades. It was and is taught and used by military, police, and governments around the world for decades. It has proven its worth and effectiveness. There are thousands of books written on it. And countless amount of bandwith dedicated to it. Aikido isn't simply a fighting art, it is an embassador of the world that has a message so many people are willing to follow to make the world a better place. That is worth every amount of criticism anyone can throw at it, including the original (trolling) question that started this thread. Aikido isn't simply about fighting with someone else in a ring for money. Aikido for all its faults is about being human. I think that is also what this Aikido board reflects.

BJJ is often criticized because I think it is misunderstood by those on the outside and inside. Carlos wasn't definitive and was very artistic and skilled. Great artists are often misunderstood. Because of Carlos there have been great BJJer, martial artists, and those inspired and impressed by him from common folk to royalty all over the world. BJJ because of Carlos is internationally recognized and respected. BJJ is a common household world in many places for decades. It was and is taught and used by military, police, and governments around the world for decades. It has proven its worth and effectiveness. There are thousands of books written on it. And countless amount of bandwith dedicated to it. BJJ isn't simply a fighting art, it is an embassador of the world that has a message so many people are willing to follow to make the world a better place. That is worth every amount of criticism anyone can throw at it, including the original (trolling) question that started this thread. BJJ isn't simply about fighting with someone else in a ring for money. BJJ for all its faults is about being human. I think that is also what this Aikido board reflects.

Thanks, Kev. I subscribe to the belief that you could pretty much interchange just about any serious discipline in the place of BJJ or Aikido.

Hi Kevin
I agree with every single thing you just laid out, but I think I have to take that one step further. I think most wrestllers, grapplers, Judoka and...BJJers I have met and played with over the years are a model of good budo men by any standard I have ever...ever, seen. I have never met a single one who exhibtied the passive agressive garbage I have seen in some Traditional artist and teachers. Are they confident? you bet, but it is a confidence born from sweat, failure and wins. Most having learned from honing those skills many times from the flat of thier backs.
Most grapplers have a very real sense of failure and testing and that...changes a man. Grapplers are on the whole among the cleanest (less issues) and good to go folks you will find in MA. Everytime I hear comments about meatheads, or blood and guts violent men in grappling I know they come from folks with little exposure in the field discussed.

Dan you did catch the irony of that post didn't you? Look at Phil's last paragraph above mine. Just making a point.

I agree with your comments.

Interesting we had a new guy show up this morning. 30 something..never really done much jiujitsu...first time in a GI.

20 years Greco Roman, Freestyle, Nationally Ranked NCAA guy back in the day.

He is a natural at this stuff. Owned all of us pretty much, with the exception when I pulled some cheap crap like pulling guard or ankle locks cause he wasn't used to them.

Anyway, I fully expect that he will be promoted to a senior blue or purple belt very soon in BJJ as his skills are up to par.

We were discussing the honesty that comes along with grappling arts as they have a way of holding you accountable and keeping you focused on reality.

None of us were reallly too upset that a new guy could walk in and own us..we were really excited at the proposition that we now had a big challenge which would only serve to make us better.

The passive agressive stuff doesn't last. It tears you up inside and ends up eating a hole in you. Guys that have this tude will leave usually after a while anyway as they can't stand it.

That bonds that are formed, as you know, through the hard work, blood, sweat, and pain forges you both as a person and as a team.

The competition aspect is but the stage for us to come together and test ourselves.

Those that have never experienced bond and experience might have a hard time understanding the nature of it.

It can be found in other ways, like in aikido.

However, the best experiences for me have been the really physically and mentally demanding ones that challenge you at the core.

Dan Harden wrote: Guys What Don meant was he was going after the poster in a way that Jun may object to and thus it may be his last post as Jun would "card him" for it. He wasn't saying he was going to leave. I swear people skim posts and don't read. Jun has had enough of the perosnal side of debating and is asking us to find a way to debate the subject not the people. I fail occadionally and try to apologize and stay on point.

I knew what he meant. My plea was for him to reconsider.

Great post Don. Agreed 100%.

I've posted this before, but Kevin's post brought it to mind again:

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

Theodore Roosevelt
"Citizenship in a Republic,"
Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris, April 23, 1910

Philip Burgess wrote: I guess my posts have hit homec for allot. I am sorry the reactions are not constructive but that is what happens when a cord is struck and they don't like it.

Interestingly enough it's also what happens when people are faced with repeated ignorance and lose patience. Go figure.

But we all agree on one thing that Aikido offers more then one thing. It is an art that is to be explored and it isn't reduced to a fight that lasts mins. Aikido is complex and allot of people don't have the patience to go the distance.

Same with BJJ. And MMA for that matter. Your problem is the only exposure you have to it is what you've seen on the UFC - which is why you assume that that's all there is to it. You're spectacularly wrong. You make comments that indicate you think everyone that trains mma is doing so to enter the ufc - and are thus fooling themselves. This makes you look silly. People train mma for the same reasons they train any art. Fitness, self improvement, a venue to test oneself (and thus meet oneself)and of course self defence.
Competition is but a small aspect of the gig for many of us.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Don, Tim gives some good advice. I agree with his comments and observations concerning teaching aikido and extended KI and what not. FWIW, I worked with Tim a little when he was over here on the east coat for the Aunkai seminar. Tim, you weigh like what....145-155 pounds soaking wet? Tim has been working hard on aiki, BTW I don't think he is an Aikidoka either by any stretch of the imagination. Doing the Aunkai exercises and Jo staff work, Tim was very impressive and strong. I weigh about 90 lbs more than Tim for sure. He will also tell you that he is not any where near and expert level, but a rote beginner, which I would agree to, but much better and the conditioning drills, and internal skills stuff than I. Anyway, has nothing to do with "he can kick my ass" or "yea I can't do it, but I can kick his ass" mentality. The thing is, that is impressive to see guys learn "Aiki" (Aunkai) and be able to do this stuff. Just thought I'd throw that out there! If you have time, it would be well worth it for you to spend time with Mike Sigman, Dan, or Ark...if only for a weekend. It will open your eyes to looking at aiki in a way that you may not have considered. As you know, I share your same observations concerning aliveness, grappling, Judo, and BJJ. I do have to laugh eating pancakes and talking about KI..I have done that very thing as well.

Kevin,
Thanks for the kind words. I'm around 130, and definitely a beginner. I know I have a long way to go before my training is complete. And though I may have some internal training, I'm a ways from being able to absorb one of your full power overhand rights. Not to mention 4 or 5 of them in a row And the training you and your guys do, is awesome. Bujutsu for the modern era, I think. Thank you for sharing your insights with me.

Stay safe out there this weekend, and I hope we can all train together again soon.

Best,
Tim

Good to see some actual bonding going on.

You see it's interesting - the veracity of the source makes such a difference. A year ago I would have dismissed out of hand any talk of internal power, yaddah yaddah as just not valid - TMAers living in their ivory castles (the same ones in which I used to reside)

But then Dan talks as someone who understands aliveness and sounds like he trains that way. Intriguing. Intrigued but not convinced.

Then Kevin says he's experienced some of what Dan talks about and it's real. Given every thing else Kevin says is pretty much bang on with what I've experienced this gives me serious pause.

So now while I'm still not sure what guys like Dan are talking about, if I had the opportunity to find out I'd definately be interested. (shame I'm so far away).

IOW you can tell who's talking from a position of live experience and who's opinions deserve merit even if they don't mesh with your beliefs, and who's just blowing smoke..

I totally see where people are coming from here.

I think though that I may be one of the few people who have an aikido class after a grappling class in more than 1 place.

I see the the look of disdain in the faces of the wrestlers/bjj/whatever groundfighting system is before my classes when we start doing simple warms ups.

Both lead to better people, but neither system necessarily works miracles.

Rob

Philip Burgess wrote: I guess my posts have hit home for allot. I am sorry the reactions are not constructive but that is what happens when a cord is struck and they don't like it. And they run out of defenses and have to see things for what they are. It is easy to dish it out, but harder to take it, criticism that is. This is an Aikido board and there is a wide range of serious Aikidoka of different styles and beliefs in what Aikido is and isn't. But we all agree on one thing that Aikido offers more then one thing. It is an art that is to be explored and it isn't reduced to a fight that lasts mins. Aikido is complex and allot of people don't have the patience to go the distance. Aikido is often criticized because I think it is misunderstood by those on the outside and inside. O'Sensei wasn't definitive and was very artistic and skilled. Great artists are often misunderstood. Because of O'Sensei there have been great Aikidoka, martial artists, and those inspired and impressed by him from common folk to royalty all over the world. Aikido because of O'Sensei is internationally recognized and respected. Aikido is a common household world in many places for decades. It was and is taught and used by military, police, and governments around the world for decades. It has proven its worth and effectiveness. There are thousands of books written on it. And countless amount of bandwith dedicated to it. Aikido isn't simply a fighting art, it is an embassador of the world that has a message so many people are willing to follow to make the world a better place. That is worth every amount of criticism anyone can throw at it, including the original (trolling) question that started this thread. Aikido isn't simply about fighting with someone else in a ring for money. Aikido for all its faults is about being human. I think that is also what this Aikido board reflects.

I can take what I dish out. I can dish out examples, testing, and evidence. What you were dishing out was opinion on a subject where you have done zero research or training and gave no real examples, but simply made claims.

I do not feel that modern aikido has proven its effectiveness. I feel that it can add a extra layer of strategy to someone who has skill in fighting, but as a stand alone training system, it does not develop the skills needed properly. I base this on my limited experience in aikido, my intermediate experience in judo and bjj, my first hand experience with aliveness n training, and my talking to the many many aikidoka about how they train and what they expect to get from that training.

And that would be fine. Except that there are people who want to claim aikido is everything to everyone. It is either a martial art, or it isn't. If it is not useful in fighting, stop using the word martial.

http://yunshui.files.wordpress.com/2...e-vs-faith.png