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07-06-2012, 04:12 PM
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#127
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Location: ATL
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 847
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote:
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you're just not accepting enough! You have to first accept the absurdity of this video into your heart and then you will understand =P
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07-06-2012, 05:51 PM
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#128
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Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote:
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Is ki at play in the proper exchange of what the instructor is trying to teach ? yes, IMO, but not in the way nor at the level of importance the instructor is giving it. There is much more at play in that exchange that he does not mention or is just dancing around in with his verbiage. For example, he mentions proper connection, but he does not elaborate and he does not talk at all about proper body structure and extension of energy; his primary focus is on acceptance - granted, that is part of the process, but there is much more - this, IMO, is the type of ki instruction that is not practical and just leads to why so many serious budoka view the ki folks as woo woo.
Greg
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07-06-2012, 06:08 PM
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#129
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Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote:
Is ki at play in the proper exchange of what the instructor is trying to teach ? yes, IMO, but not in the way nor at the level of importance the instructor is giving it. There is much more at play in that exchange that he does not mention or is just dancing around in with his verbiage. For example, he mentions proper connection, but he does not elaborate and he does not talk at all about proper body structure and extension of energy; his primary focus is on acceptance - granted, that is part of the process, but there is much more - this, IMO, is the type of ki instruction that is not practical and just leads to why so many serious budoka view the ki folks as woo woo.
Greg
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That don't make sense. You say Ki is at play then go on to say about level of import. It's just a drill.
There is no dancing of verbiage. Why doesn't he elaborate? Because it's a drill on one aspect obviously.
Why do you want or expect everything in one video?
Peace.G.
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07-06-2012, 06:15 PM
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#130
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Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote:
That don't make sense. You say Ki is at play then go on to say about level of import. It's just a drill.
There is no dancing of verbiage. Why doesn't he elaborate? Because it's a drill on one aspect obviously.
Why do you want or expect everything in one video?
Peace.G.
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No, but his sole emphasis on ki is way overstated - there are things at play in that exercise that he totally ignores; to me, some of those things are more important then the ki energy involvement.
Greg
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07-06-2012, 06:35 PM
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#131
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Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote:
No, but his sole emphasis on ki is way overstated - there are things at play in that exercise that he totally ignores; to me, some of those things are more important then the ki energy involvement.
Greg
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It's not a drill on importance it's on one aspect. How can you say about ignoring when it's a drill on one thing?
Peace.G.
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07-06-2012, 07:25 PM
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#132
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Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote:
It's not a drill on importance it's on one aspect. How can you say about ignoring when it's a drill on one thing?
Peace.G.
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Sorry, the drill is focused on a start to a finish - attack to a throw - there are more than one thing going on in that process, and if you are going to show the whole process in the drill, you need to explain all steps in that process - he does not.
Greg
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07-07-2012, 12:29 AM
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#133
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Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote:
Sorry, the drill is focused on a start to a finish - attack to a throw - there are more than one thing going on in that process, and if you are going to show the whole process in the drill, you need to explain all steps in that process - he does not.
Greg
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Interesting. If that's your view then maybe you haven't ever experienced focused training on one thing.
In fact given one thing to do with Ki and a person made to focus on it and carry on until they could apply it would end the debate on this thread.
Peace.G.
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07-07-2012, 07:28 AM
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#134
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Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote:
Interesting. If that's your view then maybe you haven't ever experienced focused training on one thing.
In fact given one thing to do with Ki and a person made to focus on it and carry on until they could apply it would end the debate on this thread.
Peace.G.
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Thanks for the reply - I generally know I am on the right track with something when you disagree with it
Greg
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07-07-2012, 08:19 AM
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#135
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Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 657
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Ki Response with Punch ?
I really didn't know what to make of the video - My son Rik did - he thought it was another Jim Carey sppof.
So we are now well informed it is `focused training` - I never experienced anything like that in the past 55 years of training.
Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-bracknell.blogspot.com/
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07-07-2012, 11:42 AM
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#137
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Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote:
Ki Response with Punch ?
I really didn't know what to make of the video - My son Rik did - he thought it was another Jim Carey sppof.
So we are now well informed it is `focused training` - I never experienced anything like that in the past 55 years of training.
Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-bracknell.blogspot.com/
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Henry:
People can focus as intensely on stupid training as they can on useful training. I think that it is so sad that people can take some meaningful construct (such as "ki") and find a way to muck it up so bad, that reasonable people will look at a video clip like that and dismiss the construct outright. It is kind of like washing a hand-blown, crystal wine glass with a hammer and as a result of that experience, believe that hammers are useless....
Regards,
Marc Abrams
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07-07-2012, 12:27 PM
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#138
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Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 824
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
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If it's all body mechanics then why bother telling her to "drive it through his head"? Why say anything at all? If it's all the work of muscle groups working together why does he need to direct her to perform any mental gymnastics?
Also, the idea behind unbendable is to perform it with a relaxed arm and focused intent (coordination of and and body, a.k.a. correct feeling or as Dan posted in #50 "controlled use of the body systems through intent"). When performed correctly unbendable arm can be held for an indefinite period of time. Reliance on muscles alone will eventually lead to the arm bending as the muscles holding the position relax on their own when they become exhausted.
Ron
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07-08-2012, 03:04 AM
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#139
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Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 657
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote:
Henry:
People can focus as intensely on stupid training as they can on useful training. I think that it is so sad that people can take some meaningful construct (such as "ki") and find a way to muck it up so bad, that reasonable people will look at a video clip like that and dismiss the construct outright. It is kind of like washing a hand-blown, crystal wine glass with a hammer and as a result of that experience, believe that hammers are useless....
Regards,
Marc Abrams
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Marc
William Tell Sensei
Talking of stupid training, I received an email from a student who told me that his teacher had instructed every student to bring an apple to the next class where the students were instructed to place an apple on their heads - after some concentration they were told to knock the apples off each others heads with the power of their Ki The student said he never went back.
Its anyones guess who will be heading down to the dojo with a bag of Granny Smiths after reading this.
Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-bracknell.blogspot.com/
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07-08-2012, 07:01 AM
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#140
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Dojo: Milwaukee Aikikai
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 401
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote:
Henry:
People can focus as intensely on stupid training as they can on useful training. I think that it is so sad that people can take some meaningful construct (such as "ki") and find a way to muck it up so bad, that reasonable people will look at a video clip like that and dismiss the construct outright. It is kind of like washing a hand-blown, crystal wine glass with a hammer and as a result of that experience, believe that hammers are useless....
Regards,
Marc Abrams
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Marc, my disbelief in ki isn't because of the wackjob outliers. I bring them up in the post as one of four reasons why I don't mess with ki, but only one of four. The fact that something is often misused is not reason enough, in and of itself, to dismiss it outright. I question the usefulness of ki because I've never seen a need for it. My instructors who use ki as an explanation are no better than those who don't, and I've never seen anything in the dojo that can't be explained without ki. So what do I need ki for?
Let me revise your analogy. Say you've seen the hammer misused with the wine glass, and you've seen the claw end of the hammer used for jobs a crowbar could do just as well or better, but you've never seen any evidence that nails really exist. What usefulness would you find in that hammer then?
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07-08-2012, 07:08 AM
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#141
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Dojo: Milwaukee Aikikai
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 401
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote:
If it's all body mechanics then why bother telling her to "drive it through his head"? Why say anything at all? If it's all the work of muscle groups working together why does he need to direct her to perform any mental gymnastics?
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Because, as with many things, visualization helps. It helps because we can't mentally single out every muscle in our body (for instance, imagine how unhelpful it would be for an instructor to say, "Use your latissimus dorsae."). Visualization is a useful tool for complex muscular actions. Only in aikido, though, do we consider these visualizations evidence of ki. In everything else (singing, shot put, flyfishing, whatever), they just are what they are. What makes aikido different?
Quote:
Also, the idea behind unbendable is to perform it with a relaxed arm and focused intent (coordination of and and body, a.k.a. correct feeling or as Dan posted in #50 "controlled use of the body systems through intent"). When performed correctly unbendable arm can be held for an indefinite period of time. Reliance on muscles alone will eventually lead to the arm bending as the muscles holding the position relax on their own when they become exhausted.
Ron
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I think you've got a false dichotomy here. You seem to be assuming that one can either (a) use his muscles or (b) relax his arms. I'm not sure that is biologically sound. Even with a relaxed arm, there can still be lot of muscle and bone structure at work.
Last edited by OwlMatt : 07-08-2012 at 07:22 AM.
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07-08-2012, 07:39 AM
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#142
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Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 824
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Matthew Story wrote:
Because, as with many things, visualization helps.
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So it seems that it's the term ki that you object to. Replacing the word ki with visualization doesn't alter the procedure, which in this case, is coordinating mind and body in order to improve performance of a certain task. And that's what ki is, a unified mind and body, no woo woo mysterious energy source, but a synergy that amplifies one's power in a way that can't be achieved by mechanics alone.
If coordination of mind and body strikes you as a little to Ki Aikido-y try Dan's definition again which is pretty non-denominational: "controlled use of the body systems through intent".
Ron
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07-08-2012, 07:59 AM
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#143
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Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote:
So it seems that it's the term ki that you object to. Replacing the word ki with visualization doesn't alter the procedure, which in this case, is coordinating mind and body in order to improve performance of a certain task. And that's what ki is, a unified mind and body, no woo woo mysterious energy source, but a synergy that amplifies one's power in a way that can't be achieved by mechanics alone.
If coordination of mind and body strikes you as a little to Ki Aikido-y try Dan's definition again which is pretty non-denominational: "controlled use of the body systems through intent".
Ron
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Who is visualizing?
Peace.G.
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07-08-2012, 08:12 AM
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#144
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Dojo: Milwaukee Aikikai
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 401
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote:
So it seems that it's the term ki that you object to. Replacing the word ki with visualization doesn't alter the procedure, which in this case, is coordinating mind and body in order to improve performance of a certain task. And that's what ki is, a unified mind and body, no woo woo mysterious energy source, but a synergy that amplifies one's power in a way that can't be achieved by mechanics alone.
If coordination of mind and body strikes you as a little to Ki Aikido-y try Dan's definition again which is pretty non-denominational: "controlled use of the body systems through intent".
Ron
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Okay, then why do we need the word ki at all?
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07-08-2012, 08:30 AM
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#145
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Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Matthew Story wrote:
Marc, my disbelief in ki isn't because of the wackjob outliers. I bring them up in the post as one of four reasons why I don't mess with ki, but only one of four. The fact that something is often misused is not reason enough, in and of itself, to dismiss it outright. I question the usefulness of ki because I've never seen a need for it. My instructors who use ki as an explanation are no better than those who don't, and I've never seen anything in the dojo that can't be explained without ki. So what do I need ki for?
Let me revise your analogy. Say you've seen the hammer misused with the wine glass, and you've seen the claw end of the hammer used for jobs a crowbar could do just as well or better, but you've never seen any evidence that nails really exist. What usefulness would you find in that hammer then?
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Matthew:
I am happy that after only three years into Aikido, you have figured everything out! I have not been responding back because of where you are in your Aikido development.
I frankly would like to hear to response to your own posts five years, ten years, fifteen years into the future. Maybe you should step back and look at the experience base of some of the posters. Many have decades of experience with direct students of the founder. Many are very intelligent, successful people in other endeavors in their lives. We are not talking about the kind of people who fall for common or uncommon ruse. It is so "comforting" to know that you are so much wiser and more advanced than all of us . You can remain where you are in your thinking and your Aikido will reflect that in the years to come. Hopefully, your thinking and your Aikido will evolve nicely. A hint along the way AI KI Do.
Good Luck!
marc abrams
Ps- If you are ever in the area, stop by and try a class.
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07-08-2012, 08:37 AM
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#146
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Dojo: TV Denzlingen
Location: Freiburg
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 323
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
There are quite a number of words that denote an important domain of our experience in spite of our inability to say what it is exactly they refer to. Some would argue "Death" is one. Or the everyday uses of "Energy".
Many find them very useful in spite of not being able to (and maybe not seeing a need to) define their meaning precisely. They will be replaced if something more useful turns up. I would suspect that is a practical matter, really.
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07-08-2012, 08:51 AM
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#147
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Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,476
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
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07-08-2012, 09:39 AM
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#148
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Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote:
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So that would be God and true self.
Peace.G.
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07-08-2012, 11:57 AM
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#149
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Dojo: Milwaukee Aikikai
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 401
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote:
Matthew:
I am happy that after only three years into Aikido, you have figured everything out! I have not been responding back because of where you are in your Aikido development.
I frankly would like to hear to response to your own posts five years, ten years, fifteen years into the future. Maybe you should step back and look at the experience base of some of the posters. Many have decades of experience with direct students of the founder. Many are very intelligent, successful people in other endeavors in their lives. We are not talking about the kind of people who fall for common or uncommon ruse. It is so "comforting" to know that you are so much wiser and more advanced than all of us . You can remain where you are in your thinking and your Aikido will reflect that in the years to come. Hopefully, your thinking and your Aikido will evolve nicely. A hint along the way AI KI Do.
Good Luck!
marc abrams
Ps- If you are ever in the area, stop by and try a class.
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Mark:
You've basically just finished telling me that none of what I've written and none of the questions I've asked matter enough even to warrant a response, simply because I haven't been training as long as you have. However good your intentions are, it's hard to see that as anything but insulting and evasive.
If you'd like to continue our conversation courteously, you can begin by trying to show me where you find the nails that need your hammer. I'll listen.
But if, as you seem to be suggesting, my words are not worthy of your attention, please go back to ignoring them.
Last edited by OwlMatt : 07-08-2012 at 12:04 PM.
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07-08-2012, 11:58 AM
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#150
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Dojo: Milwaukee Aikikai
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 401
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote:
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Thanks, Mary. I'll have to start digging through this.
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