Aikido is Love text

Ethan Weisgard wrote: ...it would be a shame if all of O-Sensei's deeper thoughts and intentions for what Aikido can be used as, were not put into use. If we don't try to apply the spiritual sides of the principles that are adherent in the techniques of Aikido in our daily life, then we might as well just train some kind of sport.

Hi Ethan:

Well, to keep my comment short, I don't think that anyone can rightfully claim to apply the spiritual/philosophical side correctly unless they can demonstrably show they have accomplished the techniques and skills correctly. First the physical... then the "spiritual" interpretations have some validity behind them, I would suggest.

All the Best.

Mike

Ricky Wood wrote: Why would you say this concept is "not that important in the overall scheme?"

Reason I said that is because it's a result of the training. You'll "get" it if you pick up the bodyskills. Its just the way it works
More like the whole "love" concept is a side benefit, a good one, but just a side benefit all the same I think.
If you train with the notion that aiki is about "Love", then I doubt you're going to get very far, to put it bluntly. I agree with Mike, accquire the bodyskills first, then you can discuss philosophy.

Mike Sigman wrote: I don't think that anyone can rightfully claim to apply the spiritual/philosophical side correctly unless they can demonstrably show they have accomplished the techniques and skills correctly. First the physical... then the "spiritual"

I think a lot of the spiritual quality is in the sincere effort to learn the truth and adhere to it. Whether you can do it or not, sincere effort means a good spirit. IMHO.

Best wishes.

David

Robert John wrote: Reason I said that is because it's a result of the training. You'll "get" it if you pick up the bodyskills. Its just the way it works

I would say "not necessarily" because if you're only in it to fight, you can still get the physical skills without ever realizing that principle.

Robert John wrote: More like the whole "love" concept is a side benefit, a good one, but just a side benefit all the same I think.

Well, if your original motivation is love of your family and a desire to protect them, to be strong for them and to live a no-nonsense life of frugal austerity, it's central.

Robert John wrote: If you train with the notion that aiki is about "Love", then I doubt you're going to get very far, to put it bluntly. I agree with Mike, accquire the bodyskills first, then you can discuss philosophy.

Definitely, if one thinks spinning on the mat will somehow improve the world, I would guess you'd never get the skills or change the world, either. A real "love" orientation in budo is first based on discipline and doing the right thing. It is a fundamental principle that martial arts must first be effective.

Best wishes.

David

Robert John wrote: If you train with the notion that aiki is about "Love", then I doubt you're going to get very far, to put it bluntly. I agree with Mike,

All life is a manifestation of the spirit, the manifestation of love.
Morihei Ueshiba

Each and every master, regardless of the era or the place, heard the call and attained harmony with heaven and earth. There are many paths leading to the top of Mount Fuji, but there is only one summit - love.
Morihei Ueshiba

Loyalty and devotion lead to bravery. Bravery leads to the spirit of self-sacrifice. The spirit of self-sacrifice creates trust in the power of love.
Morihei Ueshiba

The Way of a Warrior is based on humanity, love, and sincerity; the heart of martial valor is true bravery, wisdom, love, and friendship. Emphasis on the physical aspects of warriorship is futile, for the power of the body is always limited.
Morihei Ueshiba

Aikido does not rely on weapons or brute force to succeed; instead we put ourselves in tune with the universe, maintain peace in our own realms, nurture life, and prevent death and destruction. The true meaning of the term "samurai" is one who serves and adheres to the power of love.
Morihei Ueshiba

If only we could all not "get very far"..


Justin

David Orange wrote: I would say "not necessarily" because if you're only in it to fight, you can still get the physical skills without ever realizing that principle.

Let me elaborate a bit on this.
I'd say that if you get the bodyskills, then you'd at the very least "understand" (in a rough sense) what ueshiba and others postulated by Aiki is love etc.
The bodyskills necessitate a "flip" in thinking. If you use your body in this manner it happens.

Another point I wanted to raise, although off the topic of the thread a bit is that, these bodyskills are a different way of moving your body. But they need to be integrated such that your movement in daily life is no different from when you step on the mat.

FWIW

David Orange wrote: Well, if your original motivation is love of your family and a desire to protect them, to be strong for them and to live a no-nonsense life of frugal austerity, it's central.

There's a flip side to every coin though.

What I find funny (and I'm not slamming what you wrote David, just to be clear) is that while you'll find a lot of tasujin/masters that talk about this, you'll also find other masters that expressed the "love" concept differently.

Takeda Soukaku treated his family horribly by modern day standards, leaving his wife and kids to go off on his own training, not hestiating to take exorbiant fees from people that wanted to learn from him. But was considered peerless in his time.
Sagawa maybe wasnt as severe (maybe), but he wasn't exactly a nice accomodating grandpa either. However, both expressed this "flip" in intent and simply expressed it differently. (Aite wo ukeireru, "accept the opponent")

On the chinese side you have

Li Shu Wen
Notorious for killing people in matches. The chinese also have a bad habit of blowing things out of proportion, but if even 1/100th of the stories were true, the guy was still pretty crazy. Still the body skills expressed in Baji Fist (which is what Li Shu Wen practiced) also necessitate that you "absorb"/"accept" the person into you, if you want the techniques to actually work. with any efficiency.

Various Hsing-I guys come to mind, but I don't remember the names.

So what does this point to?

Basically the bodyskill necessitates that you accept the person "into" you. If you want to hurt him badly, you don't eject him. Instead you bring him into "you", literally like a blender, into your center, crushing him. (I'm talking about intent here, not physical movement.) If you don't want to hurt him, you eject, a la aikido, or tai chi etc. The "bring him into you", "accept" then "eject" is where the whole love concept comes from, but I feel very strongly that you have to be able to have the bodyskill first before you understand what this implies.

Just my two cents.

Justin Smith wrote: All life is a manifestation of the spirit, the manifestation of love. Morihei Ueshiba Each and every master, regardless of the era or the place, heard the call and attained harmony with heaven and earth. There are many paths leading to the top of Mount Fuji, but there is only one summit - love. Morihei Ueshiba Loyalty and devotion lead to bravery. Bravery leads to the spirit of self-sacrifice. The spirit of self-sacrifice creates trust in the power of love. Morihei Ueshiba The Way of a Warrior is based on humanity, love, and sincerity; the heart of martial valor is true bravery, wisdom, love, and friendship. Emphasis on the physical aspects of warriorship is futile, for the power of the body is always limited. Morihei Ueshiba Aikido does not rely on weapons or brute force to succeed; instead we put ourselves in tune with the universe, maintain peace in our own realms, nurture life, and prevent death and destruction. The true meaning of the term "samurai" is one who serves and adheres to the power of love. Morihei Ueshiba If only we could all not "get very far".. Justin

right on Justin.

We need people like you to keep the true spirit of Aikido alive. The great thing about Aikido, is that it seems to bring people around in spite of themselves. I started off thinking it was about throwing and kicking ass, but the more I do it, the more I realize what a child I was before, and how far I have to go now. Everyday that I let the spirit of love and harmony with my fellow man conquer my ego and my anger, I feel one step closer to Osensei.

--Wayne

I didn't see Justin's original post, so from teh quote: I think there's a lot of bunk in there. For instance, no practical guide on what it means to let this 'tuning' with the universe, etc., happen successfully, consistently and constantly. I am only guessing here, but there must be practical methods, and we should be discussing those. Also, the definition of 'samurai' is half way out: the "serve" part is right, but the "love" part is totally off. It could of course be referring to the same 'love' as Robert John was hinting at, but then we'd be getting back to the practical training methods and the results those offer.

Robert John wrote: Let me elaborate a bit on this. I'd say that if you get the bodyskills, then you'd at the very least "understand" (in a rough sense) what ueshiba and others postulated by Aiki is love etc. The bodyskills necessitate a "flip" in thinking. If you use your body in this manner it happens. Another point I wanted to raise, although off the topic of the thread a bit is that, these bodyskills are a different way of moving your body. But they need to be integrated such that your movement in daily life is no different from when you step on the mat. ((and from another post)) Basically the bodyskill necessitates that you accept the person "into" you. If you want to hurt him badly, you don't eject him. Instead you bring him into "you", literally like a blender, into your center, crushing him. (I'm talking about intent here, not physical movement.) If you don't want to hurt him, you eject, a la aikido, or tai chi etc. The "bring him into you", "accept" then "eject" is where the whole love concept comes from, but I feel very strongly that you have to be able to have the bodyskill first before you understand what this implies.

I think what Rob is saying is a far more accurate gesture toward the true general meaning of the "aiki" idea. The western behavioral interpretation is a nice thing, but in some ways it implies that Ueshiba was simplistic and that Aikido is, too. I tend to reject that. Ueshiba was a classicist... the way Rob lays it out is more "in harmony" with the original thrust of the "no resistance, only harmony with the physical laws of the universe" sort of thing. And the body skills were the sophisticated part. If you read some of Abe Sensei's comments on the obviously secret body-skills training, Inaba's more direct statements, etc., and keep in mind what Rob just wrote, I think you can get a glimpse of the true edifice that is the art of Aikido.

Just my opinion.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Robert John wrote: Another point I wanted to raise, although off the topic of the thread a bit is that, these bodyskills are a different way of moving your body. But they need to be integrated such that your movement in daily life is no different from when you step on the mat.

I have thought a lot about that relationship, inspired in large part by Musashi's statement in Go Rin No Sho:

"Make your everyday stance your fighting stance and make your fighting stance your everyday stance."

Depending on the type of training, we may be taught a very different way of moving for the martial context. For instance, my early teachers taught that we should always keep the knees slightly bent. After decades of that influence, I realized that this required constant semi-conscious inhibition of the natural nervous system impulse to stand up fully and I decided it was better to cooperate with that impulse than to habitually keep the knees slightly bent at all times. And that was supported by Musashi's advice to stand up as tall as possible when facing an enemy. He also said to put "vigor" into the hairline...

Best.

David

Robert John wrote: I feel very strongly that you have to be able to have the bodyskill first before you understand what this implies.

Absolutely. If it doesn't work for life-and-death encounters, why call it a martial art.

Aikido is said to be an art of mercy, but mercy is only possible if you have the ability to destroy and you choose to be kind.

A Christian idea is that "Mercy is Justice tempered by Love."

If you can't defeat someone absolutely, you also can't be merciful to them. Clearly, Ueshiba had the ability to defeat most anyone. He must have had a limit, but I never heard of anyone approaching it.

But I do think he was entirely scrupulous about that and insisted that budo implicitly demanded that mercy as a factor of developing that strength. I think he did differ from Takeda Sokaku in that way. Think how nasty he could have been if he hadn't taken that tack. I also think that he came to some of those conclusions as a result of his relatively minor role in Japan's ruinous actions in WWII. And a lot of the later sayings came after he spent a lot of time farming.

BTW, did you see the video on AJ which contains his speaking voice in the radio interview? He talks about giving up training for awhile and how sick he got at that time.

Best wishes.

David

David

Gernot Hassenpflug wrote: I didn't see Justin's original post, so from teh quote: I think there's a lot of bunk in there...the definition of 'samurai' is half way out: the "serve" part is right, but the "love" part is totally off. It could of course be referring to the same 'love' as Robert John was hinting at, but then we'd be getting back to the practical training methods and the results those offer.

Gernot, Justin's original post is just a few posts up: #30. The sayings are all straight from Morihei Ueshiba. Of course, without proper context, they can be completely misconstrued and I think we can see many examples of that in modern aikido, where the attacks and defenses are so symbollic as to be meaningless.

However, assuming reasonably realistic attacks and defenses, enacted with sincerity, I think OSensei believed that dilligent practice alone would develop the necessaries.

Look at soldiers, for instance. Most of them have few body skills, actually, but they can march together and the army becomes a whole body that can strike very effectively. If the soldier enters the service out of love of family and country, even though he has no fighting skills and even if he is only a clerk, his dilligent efforts help the whole army to fight. And that is more real than most of us do on the mat.

I believe you said that you were a student of Morihiro Saito? I was looking at his book recently, reading some of what he said about training exercises, and I saw a video clip of him recently. It's no wonder he was counted among the greats of aikido.

Best wishes.

David

Gernot Hassenpflug wrote: I didn't see Justin's original post, so from teh quote: I think there's a lot of bunk in there. For instance, no practical guide on what it means to let this 'tuning' with the universe, etc., happen successfully, consistently and constantly. I am only guessing here, but there must be practical methods, and we should be discussing those. Also, the definition of 'samurai' is half way out: the "serve" part is right, but the "love" part is totally off. It could of course be referring to the same 'love' as Robert John was hinting at, but then we'd be getting back to the practical training methods and the results those offer.

Just to make an oblique point about how a lot of the Aikido tenets don't point to a particularly new idea, let me post a section of comment by one Ren Gang, found at this website I stumbled on:

http://www.doubledragonalliance.com/

So the problem for foreign students learning Wushu or the Chinese language itself is how to understand what real emptiness is, as in the state of "Wu Ji".
We must realize that emptiness is not just nothing, but that it is emptiness and fullness combined. It is nothing and everything in complete harmony.
Before one moves, thinks, talks etc, one is first empty -- wu ji. An integrated whole which is in complete harmony with its surroundings.
So, wu ji is in fact a quiet balanced state, where one thing exists peacefully and in harmony with another.
Ren Gang says that in push hands or sparring etc, one must first look upon the opponent not as a separate entity that you must defeat -- The Enemy -- but as a part of you, a part of your energy circle.
Chinese philosophy looks upon a person as being as one with the earth and sky; they are in harmony not separate. If you can fully realize this and have a sensation of this state, than you can cultivate the feeling that the opponent is also one with you.
But, it's not just his physical body that is one with you, his spirit and "shen qi" vital energy around him, is part of your energy sphere too.
So in Taiji, we want to first become aware of and later be able to harness this shen qi.
Often people play the form and have a feeling of energy moving the body's structure, but as soon as they push hands with someone, they go back to using physical strength or their structure, and are more concerned about winning and thus lose control of their shen qi.
In "Nei Jia Quan" internal arts, like Taiji, we want to forget about the body's structure and strength and utilize the shen qi to move our own body and deal with the opponent.
In Chinese they say the "Xin" heart or unconscious thought controls your waist, the waist controls and moves the shen qi and your shen qi moves the physical body.
If you want to do something, you feel what it is you want to do, and then your body responds.
Ren says that you must train yourself to use your heart (Xin) and waist to control your shen qi and thus change your old habits of the physical body or your rational thought moving the energy.
He said that when one moves, whatever one wants to do or decides to do, the body will just follow precisely what you intend. In push hands, when you see the opportunity to dissipate or strike the opponent, your body immediately obeys this "thought" or feeling with action.
He said if you have to wrestle and struggle to try and overcome the opponent to move him, then this is wrong.
At first, Ren mentioned, your body won't listen to your intention or your waist, but over time, as you concentrate on this aspect, you will start to cultivate a sensation.
Ren says that he personally doesn't think that a person's form postures are so important, for example if your hand is higher, lower etc; but a student's basic postures and structural position must be correct.

FWIW

Mike

I believe that the thoughts which incorporate a level of skill before the attainment of this universal ethic are closer to the ideals O'Sensei had in mind with the notion that Aikido is love. There are plenty of stories of people who are very skilled martial artist who do not develop this harmonious attitude; as an example Ledyard sensei makes mention of one of his dojo buddies who "goes to the dark side", in his post "Thanks to my Teachers". In the early days of the SEAL teams one of the biggest concerns was what to do with these guys in time of peace, same scenario in feudal Japan when the samurai class was faced with a period of peace, how do you occupy a warrior caste with no war? I believe that O'Sensei attained enlightenment as the story goes and believing that he was developing the ultimate martial art saw that his work needed a direction and a goal other than physical skill level. But to believe that from the beginning that this is the art of peace, is akin to believing that there should be no atemi in aikido, idealistic, but not very realistic, you can not protect and love others until you can protect yourself. So we get the cart put before the horse and believe that the overly flowery and idealistic "do no harm" form of dance is akin to a martial art. I do not believe this is what O'Sensei had in mind, I believe it was closer to the final goal of being able harmonize with any attack, thus rendering the attack to no attack at all.

Hello Mike, and others,

Sorry, I didn't see your reply directed to me before now. There are really some very interesting points being made on this thread. I agree with yours, in regard to having to first of all have a substantial physical form in your Aikido, before anything else. You need a vessel to put the more spiritual elements of our martial art into, otherwise it just becomes empty talk. But I also do feel that it is important, especially for those of us practitioners doing what is roughly labeled as "hard-style" aikido, to remember that there is more to our art than just the physical realm. I try to show and teach my students the flowing forms of our techniques, even though much of our training is based on kihon/ solid forms. By seeing these forms, and trying them out, they see what we are aiming for in the end. Therefore, even though people maybe haven't reached a higher level of proficiency in their training, I like the idea of being aware that O-Sensei had deeper intentions with his art than just for using it as self-defense. Saito Sensei always emphasized the point that O-Sensei meant Aikido to be an effective martial art. I believe one hundred percent that the deeper spiritual aspects of the art shouldn't soften the edge of the sword!

In Aiki,

Ethan Weisgard

Ethan Weisgard wrote: I like the idea of being aware that O-Sensei had deeper intentions with his art than just for using it as self-defense. Saito Sensei always emphasized the point that O-Sensei meant Aikido to be an effective martial art.

Hi Ethan:

I agree that O-Sensei had deeper intentions than just what can be seen by people doing the waza, etc. The question is whether most people see those intentions or whether they see what they want to see and are swapping those things for the real intentions.

Insofar as Saito's belief that O-Sensei meant Aikido to be an effective martial art, I totally believe that and agree. Ueshiba was a proven martial artist and traditionalist.... he would never conceive of the idea of some bogus, incomplete martial art that served as a philosophical Love Vehicle. The idea is ridiculous that Aikido is somehow "The Dance of Souls", as I heard one Aikido acolyte put it.

You end your post with "yours in Aikido". "Aiki" signifies the highest level of technique, where there is no enemy because he cannot attack you; every movement he does against you becomes part of a self-balancing movement of your own, which in turn uses his own force against him. If he cannot attack you, then there is no enemy and the universe is in order. It is a cold, calm and beautiful use of the "natural" forces of the universe (say, "the laws of physics and movement"), not some trendy ideal about "love your brother and he will come over to your way of thinking".

True, this balanced, unemotional (this is a very important part of the core beliefs, not to be distracted by emotions) appreciation of "Aikido" is not quite as enjoyable as the "Love Your Brother" interpretation, or "Aikido is Love", but it's closer to the idea of following the idea of universal harmony and it's a much more sophisticated philosophy, truer to the accepted Asian ideal.

My 2 cents.

Mike

Can't get much clearer than that! The unemotional part is easier to get to if you have a technical goal, and know how to achieve it, a task. It is much harder when teaching is vague and people have to find their own rationalization for what they are being asked to do. The great thing with these discussions is that slowly but surely, more people are bineg made aware that there is a very specific technical goal out there, and that it is kept fairly secret: "There are no secrets in aikido" (hollow laugh).

Gernot Hassenpflug wrote: "There are no secrets in aikido" (hollow laugh).

The people who think "there are no secrets" are in a way going down the "Dumb Ole Asians" route that I've mentioned before. There are inescapable clues that there are indeed "secrets". Tohei didn't go outside the dojo to learn ki things because "there are no secrets".... there are secrets that Ueshiba simply wouldn't tell him and that's pretty obvious. I believe you've mentioned that Abe laughs about some things remaining secret (in a good-hearted way). And so on. Anyone who thinks there are no secrets besides wearing some black culottes and "loving your brother" isn't really doing any thinking and research... for those people, Aikido is more than likely a social matter.

Mike

The way I see it, the Japanese disciplines - "Do"- all focus on attempting to gain physical mastery of the given discipline, be this Sado, Shodo or Budo, hereby making a physical form in which you then - as you progress- can add more and more of the spiritual aspects of The Way. The idea of jumping over the physical aspects of the discipline and going straight to the metaphysical aspects is not in my opinion the traditional way in any of the "Do" forms in Japanese culture. My point is: don't get stuck in the physicality of the techniques, but constantly polish them ("waza wo migaku"), and your spiritual understanding will develop as well.

In Aiki,

Ethan

Do you mean secrets as in deliberately withheld by a person or secrets not yet discovered by the seeker that can only be discovered by practice and study.

David Skaggs wrote: Do you mean secrets as in deliberately withheld by a person or secrets not yet discovered by the seeker that can only be discovered by practice and study.

Yes and yes

Ethan Weisgard wrote: My point is: don't get stuck in the physicality of the techniques, but constantly polish them ("waza wo migaku"), and your spiritual understanding will develop as well.

Have you ever noticed that it's mainly the westerners that carry on about the "spirituality" in all these eastern martial arts? Yet among the Asian (and western) practitioners of Aikido, Taiji, you-name-it, there are expert practitioners with all sorts of different "spiritual development", some of it deplorably lacking (and I've seen tons of scurrilous behaviour excused as representing something "spiritual" that westerners "just weren't ready to understand", too, BTW).

Look at the bickering, irrascible behaviour, role-playing, etc., etc., among the higher ranks of most martial arts and you can see a lot of examples of what I'm talking about. I.e., doing any particular martial art with the idea that it leads to some spiritual height is a bit naive; anyone with common sense should be able to see the amount of unspiritual behavior. If you look around most "martial arts" that supposedly have a spiritual bent, you'll see a lot more pretend spirituality than you'll ever see real spirituality.

But recognizing that and moving forward away from the pretend role-playing and the costumery is probably indeed a step forward.

FWIW

Mike

Terry Dobson was fond of saying that he did not know any japanese senseis that didn't smoke like chimneys, drink like fish, and chase pussy every chance they got.

Mark Uttech wrote: Terry Dobson was fond of saying that he did not know any japanese senseis that didn't smoke like chimneys, drink like fish, and chase pussy every chance they got.

What it boils down to is that "spirituality" is a subjective term, with everyone choosing their own definition of what's correct (and which therefore gives them the right to try to force everyone else to conform to, since it's the "True Spiritual" behavior). Again, I think recognizing the subjective nature of spirituality and learning to work with it instead of against it is probably a good first step to true spirituality.

FWIW

Mike