Ueshiba Morihei's power

Ellis Amdur wrote: I am aware of one event when Ueshiba Morihei, at the height of his powers, was humbled by another martial artist.

I wonder what that martial artist's students thought of him (or her). Did they describe their teacher's abilities with the same fervor as O Sensei's students did (and continue to do)? If not, would that indicate something different about O Sensei's students? Was O Sensei's charisma--his stage presence--as much personal as martial?

Dennis Hooker wrote: Who in their right mind plays with a crazy guy that has a spiked ball on the end of a chane. Of course people don't want to play with you

So I'm thinking how to argue with that. Crazy? check Chain check Well, the ball isn't spiked . . .

Ellis Amdur wrote: So I'm thinking how to argue with that. Crazy? check Chain check Well, the ball isn't spiked . . .

Are you ever going to be back in this part of the world? You have any new projects underway?

Hi Dennis - see PM

James Wyatt wrote: Power flows from the truth and O'Sensei's power comes from his understanding and mastery of the underlying principles. My sensei studied under O'Sensei for just under seven years and he said the attacks had to be fully committed and he likened receiving the techniques to "electric". Prior to enrolling at the Hombu dojo he was a well seasoned and hardened judo man and would not have studied unless he truly believed it was effective (he also studied at the Kodokan and partnered Donn Dreager as his uke). Whilst we cannot experience O'Sensei's technique directly, the very fact the greats of other arts held him in enormous respect and sent their students suggests the respect was well deserved.

Excellent point!

I believe aikido in itself is rich and boundary-less. How can you reach a boundary if you have so much to lose? Through aikido, you start to lose more and more each day. Your hardened body, your unrelaxed thoughts...etc etc. It will not end until you lose everything, and become nothingness. And then you go beyond nothingness.

When Ueshiba is young, he is still knowledgeable, still remember a lot of stuff...so he is strong on superficial level, aggressive, egoistic.

When he turns a little older, he lost more and more. He became softer.

It goes on, until one day he loses everything, including all his techniques. Then it is the day which he is overwhelming.

Seishiro Endo Shihan said that in Ueshiba's old days, when a lot of people saw Ueshiba threw people only through using ki, he said he remember O'Sensei keep mentioning about 'atari' and 'atemi'. Atari is engagement. And I think you all knows what atemi is.

Ki is not something mysterious. Ki is everything. You are ki, the environment around is ki too. Ki itself is projected out of all living and non-living beings. Lion has ki too. If a lion is hungry and it sees you, I believe, even at ten metres away and it's hiding, you can feel its ki too. Something's not right in the air. Something. Anything.

Seishiro Endo Shihan has already reached a very high level of aikido, only not the stage to throw with ki. He said it must connects very closely with 'atari' and 'atemi'.

When you practice basic aikido, atari is the basic meeting of forces, you feel the meeting of forces from uke and yourself, and you move. Atemi is usually used as something to feint the opponent, or some people said to hit people when needed to etc etc.

But if you combine atari and atemi together, it might be the answer to the 'ki' O'Sensei used to throw people without body contact. Imagine an attacker charged forward to you, you engage him with your intention, and you start to do atemi to a place of the attacker's body which is vulnerable. The attacker is shocked, he tried to cover his soft spots, thus suddenly go off-balanced, and you move to another position and do another atemi again. The attacker is shocked again and try to jump out of it, and thus totally got thrown onto the ground by himself because both atemi didn't hit that attacker AT ALL.

So is it possible to throw a person without touching him/her? YES.

Can you reach a level like that? YES.

It takes years and years of aikido to move you to an absolute nothingness on your mind which you are fully aware and see everything as it is. And then you are pure. Pure means when you are angry you are angry. You are you. You don't have mind. So when you have an intention of attack, you are the intention yourself. You carry the whole body and go with the atemi, thus the atemi works powerfully. You engage with a pure you, not anything which you been 'imagining' or 'thinking' or 'judging' on your mind.

I believe, that's why O'Sensei is O'Sensei, the Great Great Great Sensei. He is truly, truly great.

More examples of Ueshiba's power, some anecdotal references, etc.

Black Belt 1981 Vol 19 No 9
Dave Lowry article about O-sensei.
Aikijutsu presumes the existence of a flow of body energy (ki) that is used to control oneself or an opponent. Aikijutsu masters, however, should not be thought of as egghead sages, content to sit around chatting about the ki's cosmic properties, nor did they attribute to it much philosophical meaning. They were frighteningly mighty budomen, capable of loosing their ki to wrench an assailant's arm from its socket or using his own to heave him through a wall. They were, Uyeshiba decided after meeting Takeda in Hokkaido, far superior in technique to any jujitsu teachers he'd known, and he promptly made himself a student of the Little Goblin.

One man who worked with Uyeshiba when the master traveled to Hawaii in 1961 to introduce aikido there, was held by him. "He grabbed my arm and instantly it was like being in a steel vise. Just his hold on my wrist bruised me badly, and I'm sure with a little pressure, the bones would've been broken. O-Sensei didn't need technique."

Black Belt 1980 Vol 18 No 4
Article by David Orange Jr about Mochizuki.
He remembers Uyeshiba for, among other things, his superhuman grip. "When Uyeshiba grabbed your wrist," he said, "it was already bruised. His hand was like a vise."

Mochizuki trained hard to crush things with his hands, but he never developed a grip like Uyeshiba's. "Uyeshiba," he said, "could break the wrist just by grasping it."

Black Belt 1981 Vol 19 No 9
Dave Lowry article about O-sensei.
One man who worked with Uyeshiba when the master traveled to Hawaii in 1961 to introduce aikido there, was held by him. "He grabbed my arm and instantly it was like being in a steel vise. Just his hold on my wrist bruised me badly, and I'm sure with a little pressure, the bones would've been broken. O-Sensei didn't need technique."

Black Belt 1989 Vol 27 No 8
Interview with Mochizuki
Mochizuki: Uyeshiba Sensei's teaching pushed me a lot to think. He could never show again what he did in randori. I would say, "What was that?" and he would reply, "I got that from God suddenly. I don't remember." To Uyeshiba Sensei, ki (internal energy) was inspiration from God. So I had to rationalize and try to extract basics from multiple variations. Also, Uyeshiba Sensei was not concerned with teaching at the time I was studying under him. We were mostly training partners to him. Our relationship was very informal. I would give him a hard time, often trying to counter him, sometimes with success. Other students would not dare. As exercises, we would often practice sumo. Uyeshiba was unbeatable at that type of wresting. He also had an extremely powerful grip. He could bruise someone's wrist just by grabbing it. I noticed that most partners would throw themselves before he even caught their wrist.

See also Amdur's HIPS, page 172.

Ellis Amdur wrote: Actually, Mifune and Ueshiba did meet. At the 1955 gathering of all the shihan - a week long training that I've referred to here and there - Kobayashi Yasuo recalled being in attendance while Ueshiba and Mifune had dinner. (And apparently, none of the uchi-deshi listened to the conversation - being young and probably tired, they just waited while the old men pontificated and ate). (It is very possible that they met elsewhere, but this time is known). Ellis Amdur

This may be a little late but here is a reference from Kobayashi Yasuo Sensei's autobiography about those two meeting:

http://www.kobayashi-dojo.com/english/book/3_5/

Cheers...

Hideo Hirosawa shihan - does he have it (or some of it)?

http://www.taais.com/The_last_uchideshi_of_Ueshiba.pdf

I note from the article that Hirosawa shihan received a two-thumbs up from Tada shihan before he was allowed to give a seminar in Italy.

Video clips of Hideo Hirosawa's demostrations:

http://videoology.com/aikido/watch-v...wa-shihan.html

http://www.export-manga.com/tienda/i...wa-Shihan.html

Ellis Amdur wrote: Actually, Mifune and Ueshiba did meet. At the 1955 gathering of all the shihan - a week long training that I've referred to here and there - Kobayashi Yasuo recalled being in attendance while Ueshiba and Mifune had dinner. (And apparently, none of the uchi-deshi listened to the conversation - being young and probably tired, they just waited while the old men pontificated and ate). (It is very possible that they met elsewhere, but this time is known). Ellis Amdur

According to Yoshio Sugino in Aiki News Issue 069, so there are at least two meetings between Mifune and Ueshiba.

"Kano Sensei, along with two or three others including Mr. Mifune, an instructor of the Kodokan, and Mr. Nagaoka went to Ueshiba Sensei's dojo in Shinjuku to observe his training."

Regarding film frame rates, what is also important is shutter speed. In film there is something called the 180 degree rule, if you shoot 24fps you should have a shutter speed of approximately 48 for the smoothest motion. Shooting 30fps you want 60 shutter speed, etc. If you raise the shutter speed much higher you will get the effect like in some scenes found in the movie Gladiator or Saving Private Ryan, jolting stuttering quick motion that may make you feel sick. If you lower the shutter speed you will get blurred movement.

Youtube and such video hosting sites convert all of their footage to a certain frame rate which will definitely appear strange if it was not shot on standard frame rate like 24p, 30p or 60i. and especially if the 180 degree rule was not used to shoot the original footage.

I should clarify and say it is the 180 degree shutter rule, there is a 180 degree rule which is something else completely.

Aiki News Issue 030
Reverend Genyu Sogabe:

At that time, a former student from Asahikawa from around the 1935 period paid a visit and studied with Sensei after a long absence. Upon seeing Sensei's technique, he expressed some doubt: "In the old days, Sensei's technique was so frightening that we were afraid our arms and legs would be broken. But now his flowing techniques seem somewhat unconvincing and I'm puzzled about this."

I personally don't discount Ueshiba's spirituality as a big source of his power. Whether or not you believe in an actual spiritual dimension you can't discount practices of intense contemplation and purification and its effect on us but mentally and physically. I know for a fact that when I am in a good spiritual state of mind I can achieve things that I could not if weighed down the negative things that constantly creep up on us. Intense contemplation is something that is common in with the Christian saints, and spiritual heavyweights of other religions.

I also don't discount the extreme physical aspect including both his mastery of technique and extraordinary physical strength. Without these the spirituality in itself is useless for martial practice. Ueshiba was able to draw upon his strength and techniques he learned before and incorporate them at will to his Aikido.

Add on top of this his natural ability and very high intelligence.

In order to get a close as possible to replicate Ueshiba's power you would have to try and incorporate all of this I think, not in any particular order.

1) Mastery of Daito-Ryu and other forums of jujitsu
2) Shodan in Judo
3) Mastery of Japanese swordsmanship and other weapons.
4) Mastery in Aikido
5) Intense spiritual and/or mental discipline/contemplation/relaxation/purification.
6) Rigorous strength and endurancetraining.
7) Possess a great deal of natural talent
8) Good diet rich in antioxidants for both physical health and mental clarity.

Michael Neal wrote: I personally don't discount Ueshiba's spirituality as a big source of his power.

Here is where I respectfully disagree. IMO:

I discount his spirituality pretty much completely for where his martial power came from. It's pretty much known that most of his physical feats were replicated by Kodo and Sagawa. Push tests, immobilize someone, iron fan usage, etc, etc. They were all made by Takeda. The secret of aiki, as Ueshiba said.

However, I count his spirituality as what made Ueshiba and what created his view of aikido. And it pretty much points to Ueshiba couching/hiding his physical skills amidst spiritual ideology. See this thread, http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18770

Michael Neal wrote: I also don't discount the extreme physical aspect including both his mastery of technique and extraordinary physical strength.

Takeda, Sagawa, Kodo, Okamoto, Ueshiba, etc, etc, all stated that their art was formless. Mastery of technique was never a focus. In fact, quite a lot of the above were known to do one technique and move on to another and another. Somewhere, someone asked Ueshiba to repeat a technique and I believe the answer received was along the lines of they're all the same.

In too many cases to cite, mastery of technique from highly proficient men in judo, karate, kendo, etc never helped them when they met Takeda, Sagawa, Kodo, Ueshiba, etc. Focusing on mastery of technique is a dead end.

Physical strength? Again, there are countless examples out there of men whose physical strength was useless. Ueshiba's first encounter with Takeda is a very prime example. Tohei talking about kicking beams in his house to get good at judo and then not being able to do anything when he met Ueshiba. Mochizuki's meeting with Ueshiba. Etc, etc, etc.

Michael Neal wrote: Without these the spirituality in itself is useless for martial practice. Ueshiba was able to draw upon his strength and techniques he learned before and incorporate them at will to his Aikido.

Ueshiba never stopped doing Daito ryu.
See this thread:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15100

and

Ellis Amdur's comment about Driscoll's research and Ueshiba's techniques being 99% (I think but it was in the 90's for sure) Daito ryu. There's a specific reason why Daito ryu derived techniques are different from old style jujutsu and judo.

Michael Neal wrote: In order to get a close as possible to replicate Ueshiba's power you would have to try and incorporate all of this I think, not in any particular order. 1) Mastery of Daito-Ryu and other forums of jujitsu 2) Shodan in Judo 3) Mastery of Japanese swordsmanship and other weapons. 4) Mastery in Aikido 5) Intense spiritual and/or mental discipline/contemplation/relaxation/purification. 6) Rigorous strength and endurancetraining. 7) Possess a great deal of natural talent 8) Good diet rich in antioxidants for both physical health and mental clarity.

His power? Primarily, it's the aiki of Daito ryu. His aikido? It's the aiki of Daito ryu blended with his spirituality (mainly Oomoto kyo).

You want to *be* Ueshiba, that's the two elements. Personally, I think it's a very hard road to take.

You want to *replicate* Ueshiba (or be better), it's the aiki from Daito ryu and whatever spirituality you live. No religion needed, but Ueshiba's aikido will make you better in your religion.

I would put someone that has all the qualities on my list against someone who just has a mastery of Daito-Ryu any day. Ueshiba was really a mixed martial artist with a specialty in aiki. Articles speak of his superior "sumo" skills probably developed through both his Judo and sumo experience as well has his incredible strength.

I also personal give the spirituality more credit than others if even just due to the mental benefits of clarity, meditation, and powerful imagination. I just know this from my personal experience that I perform 300% better when spiritually in tune but unfortunately I spend most of my time out of tune.

A probably unnecessary plug, but all of the above information will be clearer if you can get and study a copy of "Hidden in Plain Sight". Context is everything. Now back to the discussion.

Yes I am definitely interested in that book, thanks for reminding me that I need to get a copy.

Not that I have any chance of even coming close to the skill level of Ueshiba, an impossibility for me for sure. Maybe someone starting off really young following the same training methods and skills.

Michael Neal wrote: Not that I have any chance of even coming close to the skill level of Ueshiba, an impossibility for me for sure. Maybe someone starting off really young following the same training methods and skills.

Hi Michael - nice to see you back on the boards. As another fairly new parent, I know what a life changer all of that can be. I'd say you've got some catching up to do on some of the discussions that have been going on. With regard to the "power" a number of people are speaking to - a lot of the discussions are around the "internal strength" aspects have to do with material that's being covered in seminars given by Mike Sigman, Dan Harden and Akuzawa from the standpoint of bodyskills that aren't tied to a specific martial art.

There other people in traditional martial arts (taiji, older jujutsu systems, etc.) that are also teaching the arts with an emphasis on these bodyskills as well. Having said that, I'd encourage you to both read Ellis's book (as others have done) and make the opportunity to go get hands-on time with someone that's explicitly teaching "this stuff" (at least Mike and Akuzawa have done seminars in the DC area in the last couple years - I'm not sure of Dan's schedule or if he's made it down that far, but keep an eye out on the "Non-Aikido *haha* Martial Traditions" forum for dates/times of when they'd be available).

I am not saying that your mind will be changed having done that, but I think you'll have a more educated perspective around what's being discussed around the topic of qi/jin from a Chinese sense and aiki from a potentially Daito-ryu sense. Like anything else in "organized martial arts", there's a host of political and social considerations (baggage) also somewhat embedded/inherent/inherited in the discussions, but that is no reason not to at least be hands-on familiar with the topics being addressed.

Also, understand that much of the above is a vast simplification of the deep topic and equally deep ramifications around the efforts going on to spread information and raise the average practitioner's knowledge about this skillset. As such, it also doesn't hurt to apply a filter to everyone's comments (yes, even mine, shocker, I know) because a lot of us are figuring it out as we go - some are upfront and honest about it, others are delusional (to themselves, others, or both) and still others try to speak to the topic while clearly indicating that they don't understand the topic.

Craziness. But at least these are interesting times, heh. As for Ueshiba Morihei's power . . an argument could be made that he was was doing the same "power" found in a lot of traditional martial arts, but at a period where its transmission cycle was seriously on the wane. An example being that the physical skillset found in aikido today has serious gaps with regard to reaching the physical abilities that Ueshiba was known for. And aikido is not the only martial art that has found itself in this boat.

yes it is interesting and I am more open minded to this kind of stuff than I used to.

Budd Yuhasz wrote: I am not saying that your mind will be changed having done that, but I think you'll have a more educated perspective around what's being discussed around the topic of qi/jin from a Chinese sense and aiki from a potentially Daito-ryu sense.

I know mine eyes have seen the glory!

Is there anyone who teaches this internal training that has legitimate credentials and ranking with this type of skill? I have read a lot of discussions here and did some forum searches and it seems there is some doubt about this. I have a lot of respect for Jim Sorrentino-Sensei and defer to his judgment and concerns about this subject, not to rehash any arguments just a legitimate question of authenticity.

This is outside of Ellis Amdur's book of course which I did order, I specifically mean on hands training.