the hakama,why cant we all get along?

Treat others as you'd want to be treated? Well I'd be happy to accept the rules of a club I'm visiting so maybe that's the difference.

I'm with Michael here.

In my original dojo, hakama was "awarded" with your black belt. I was cool with that and looked forward to the day when I had really earned it.

However, I moved, and my current sensei has asked me to wear hakama even though I am still mid-kyu level. It felt a little weird at first, because of my attachment to this whole earning it thing. I also feel strongly that what sensei says goes. His dojo, his rules. So, I am wearing hakama, but only in our dojo. When I go to train at any other dojos, I show up in white belt. That's it. As a visitor it is the obliging thing to do. It doesn't really matter what color your belt is right, the training is the important thing. So the idea of wearing hakama at a different dojo, when it isn't worn by aikidoka of the same grade there, is kind of laughable to me.

When your visiting another dojo, you show respect to them for letting you train there by playing by their rules. You wouldn't think of showing how "you" do shihonage would you? No, you follow the technique being shown by the sensei. If asked then you share a different technique, if asked to wear your hakama, only then do you wear it. My opinion anyway.

Keith

HI:

A person who in another dojo wasn't willing to take off his hakama or wear a white belt would likely be also unwilling to change the way he does waza or accept the instruction of the sensei. Some are saying its just clothing and should make no difference either way. If it is just clothing, then I for one tend to be very wary of those who insist on a hakama, because they will probably insist on other things, many of them not conducive to good keiko.

R

Raul Rodrigo wrote: If it is just clothing, then I for one tend to be very wary of those who insist on a hakama

...or who insists on no hakama...

Everyone who insists on something tends to stand on the wrong side...
...and there is every time an "altera pars"...

I think its worth to repeat:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...7&postcount=16

Our dojo's kinda odd in that you may wear one before shodan, but you must wear one after earning your black belt, and also must wear one if it is "discovered" that you actually have one sitting in the closet. That happened to me - our dojo founder remembered that I had one from practicing a different art over a decade ago, and threatened me with 48 hours of unrelenting yonkyo if I didn't wear it.

Honestly I don't really mind. I think I might be one of the few people who actually enjoys the feeling of wearing one, and oddly enough one of my teachers can actually see a difference in the quality of my technique when I don't wear it. Go figure. Maybe it's a "dressing the part" subconscious thing, or maybe the way I have to move to get out of the way of all that cloth makes my movements naturally more circular. It also keeps the bottom of my white belt from smacking me in the face when I take a back fall and widens the color selection for lacy unmentionables on practice days (friends don't let friends wear red thongs under a white gi!).

I think our dojo founder would have required everyone to wear it but for the cost of acquiring one. His opinion (as relayed to me) is that if it mattered enough to O-Sensei to make every one of his students wear one even if it was made from recycled futon covers, then he should honor that by doing the same. But we do have a wide range of economic conditions amongst the students in our dojo, and he doesn't want someone to have to leave practice because they cannot shuck out $200 for uniform parts.

That said, I still respect the rules of any dojo that I visit concerning uniforms, or anything else for that matter. Heck there are other rules in different dojos that are much harder for me to deal with than that. We tend to be a chatty group when practicing for instance, discussing the technique as we practice, occasionally even cracking jokes, and in general following the "practice with a vibrant and joyful spirit" commandment with a hefty amount of gleeful zeal. Trust me when I say keeping my mouth shut in a different dojo is infinitely harder for me than keeping my hakama in my bag! Nevertheless, I am not going to let it stop me from visiting other dojo or going to seminars and doing my best to do as the Romans do while in Rome. After all, it's just another blending exercise from a different perspective.

Oh, and as for the difficulty folding bit, my teacher had the perfect answer - make it a testing requirement. Every student has to be able to fold a hakama correctly for their second test (which is 6th kyu for us). In fact we tend to get pretty testy with any of our sensei if they even think about folding their own!

Have a great week!
Lori

Christian Schnarr wrote: ...or who insists on no hakama... Everyone who insists on something tends to stand on the wrong side... ...and there is every time an "altera pars"... I think its worth to repeat: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...7&postcount=16

But even in the example you cite, it's the host's job to put the guest in the seat of honor, if he so chooses. A guest who puts himself there unprompted is just asking for trouble. The Japanese way is to be self-effacing. If you go to a dojo and insist on your old habits, because you believe it is your entitlement as the guest, then in my neck of the woods, there are quite a few yudansha willing to issue attitude adjustments.

Agreed Raul.

It is the individuals responsibility to conform to the established group conventions.

If I visit a dojo I ask the Sensei what is the prefered uniform for visitors and then I wear what I'm told to wear. If I'm told to wear my normal stuff I do. If I'm told to wear a white belt that's fine too. It's really very simple.

Bronson

i think the next time im in europe i'll go to germany where i'll be welcome and stay the heck outta auckland i wasn't trying to pick a fight i honestly expected more hospitality than i got and had you heard the tone and the inflection of the senseis words then i think you would rethink yours,that was hatefull and you know what,no i wont go back to his dojo but should we meet at seminar then hey lets train and be friends its up to him be pompouse not me!!
i do understand bronsons points and am greatful to find a bunch of really cool people,thanks guys and for those hwo understand me,AWESOME,and those hwo don't,TRY HARDER!!!
JACK

Hi Jack,

In most of the aikikai dojo that I have attended, the wearing of hakama for ladies start at 5th kyu level (or even earlier if they can afford one) and for men when they obtain shodan. For the ladies it could be a matter of modesty after all, we don't like our lady folks to show off their white pyjamas in public.

However, there are some sensei who permit men to wear hakama even if before they attain shodan. The trend is that they are "instructed" to wear hakama once the sensei feel they can take reasonably good ukeme. The take of these sensei is that students who have come this far will eventually wear hakama, so why not let start them sooner. After all, any visitors will be impressed by the number of "high" ranking students and by swirling and flowing hakama in the dojo. I have experienced training with one such student in a seminar who could do fantastic koshinage techniques but was absolutely blurred with a just simple ikkyo technique.

Like you, Jack, he told me that he would be uncomfortable without his hakama.

I believe him.

David Y

By the way, Jack,

You are welcomed to wear your hakama at our dojo...so long as you can do a simple basic shihonage

David Y

Jack Sharp wrote: its just that i ahve been to a few other dojo here in seattle and was told that only shodan and up wear that hakama and when i said that i dont feel comfortable without mine on the yodan ...

Why are you so hung up on wearing the thing? Is all your ability really just stored in your magic hakama? I don't get it.

What your hakama means where you started is obviously different from where you're visiting. To be blunt, get over it, suit up the way they ask, and get out there and train. It hurts your feeling to be asked not to wear your hakama? Geez, they're just a pair of pants. It's not like they're asking you to wear a tiara along with a giant pink sash saying "total noob". They're simply asking that you dress according to the style they practice at that school. Wearing a hakama in that school is reserved for those at a certain rank. Why would it hurt your feelings - you don't have that rank. Heck, I've been in a hakama for a lot of years but I have visited other schools and on two occasions stepped onto the mat in my gi, white belt, with no hakama. Frankly its kinda nice to occasionally go without the "magic pants of aikipower"...

Keith Larman wrote: To be blunt, get over it, suit up the way they ask, and get out there and train. It hurts your feeling to be asked not to wear your hakama? Geez, they're just a pair of pants.

THIS! We mostly train in (offensive) t-shirts and sweats these days. It really doesn't matter what you wear. Just train.

Keith Larman wrote: It's not like they're asking you to wear a tiara along with a giant pink sash saying "total noob".

Hey, now THERE'S an idea! Neil, we could really use this for seminars...

Oh, and I should add that if you truly got a "hateful" response, well, why would you want to train there? There's no reason one cannot be polite.

But honestly if someone asked me about it given our conventions I'd smile and suggest that unless they are at Nikyu or higher (where we do that stuff) it is probably best they didn't wear it. The simple reason being is that is when folk in our style start wearing them. And so others on the mat will have some preconceptions of your ability and I'd hate to see a visiting person get tossed into something they weren't equipped to handle.

Vanity is a silly thing to get injured over.

Christian Moses wrote: Hey, now THERE'S an idea! Neil, we could really use this for seminars...

For you guys or for the visitors? Fluffy aiki bunnies...

We have some kids classes and one boy in particular kept forgetting his belt. So he comes running in with his gi flopping around. So each time I'd have to scrounge around and find a smaller white belt so he could train. Finally I took an old white belt and died it bright pink. Next time the kid came in (sadly with his belt on) I took him in back and proudly showed him that we had a new belt made specifically for kids who forget their belts. He never forgot his belt again...

But this all reminded me... I'm was going to put a few "hello kitty" patches on it too just in case I ever need it again...

Of course one problem is that we have a few kids that would probably like it...

attachment.

Best,
Ron

I'd been schooled that pre WW2 everyone in Aikido wore hakama, but I haven't seen a lot of archival film to confirm or dispute the idea - and I don't think it's important enough to get worked up about. However, about the time of WW2, mudansha in Japan were allowed to NOT wear hakama due to shortages of black fabric (blackout curtains were rather important at the time, prompted by the consequences of Pearl Harbour and other offenses). That became tradition after the war ended for economic reasons - hakama being rather expensive.

Hakama are traditional Japanese outer trousers. What we wear in Aikido are far less fancy than the ones you see at ceremonies.

I've been told, also, that when I started wearing hakama at 5th kyu (different dojo, different rules, I didn't wear one from 3rd kyu to shodan because of different dojo different rules), my footwork and movement improved - possibly teleologically - if my footwork and movement didn't improve, I'd be tripping all over the hakama.

Just my $NZ0.02 worth..
Cheers,
Walter

Keith Larman wrote: Of course one problem is that we have a few kids that would probably like it...

My daughter would forget her belt EVERY class!

Karen Wolek wrote: My daughter would forget her belt EVERY class!

Yeah, I've been trying to figure out the appropriate approach for the girls. I showed the pink belt to my 7-year-old and she asked if she could wear it around the house as a sash...

Keith Gotschall wrote: When I go to train at any other dojos, I show up in white belt. That's it. As a visitor it is the obliging thing to do. When your visiting another dojo, you show respect to them for letting you train there by playing by their rules. You wouldn't think of showing how "you" do shihonage would you? No, you follow the technique being shown by the sensei. If asked then you share a different technique, if asked to wear your hakama, only then do you wear it. My opinion anyway. Keith

Ditto, this is what I have always been taught. Pack your usual, but always, always pack a white belt and abide by the house rules.

tell you the truth, wearing hakama is just fun at the beginning, the 'coolness', the 'samurai' look or whatsoever, just lasting for a few moments only. afterwards, comes the pain. (tripped during shikko/ukemi, uneasy feelling when seiza, not to mention it often drops bcos my belly is somewhat hyperinflated :-D).
However, bcos the hakama,along with the belt, was awarded to me by my sensei after i pass the grading. i don't have the heart to abandon it at home. So, i guess i have to blend with it.
to everybody with so called 'hakama syndrome' (if any,don't mean to offend). I tell you man, wearing hakama is not as cool as it looks.

I rarely wear my hakama anymore.

As far as the issue of wearing the Hakama, it is my opnion that the Hakama is merely a piece of clothing. While I do wear the Hakama at times, it is usually for demonstration purposes so that others can not disect the technique. We are all very well aware that the Hakama tends to hide foot and leg movment. However it should be noted that the Hakama is part of traditional Japanese dress. My Sensai has no problem with me, in particular, wearing it. I have only been studying for 3 years. Does that make me qualified? That is a question in the eye of the beholder. For me, the Hakama tends to be more of a hinderance at times. But it does feel good to get back to the roots of tradition on occasion.

Why is wearing/not wearing a hakama even an issue? Isn't it proper etiquette for a visitor to simply abide by the dojo's rules, and *not* try to impose what *you* do at your home dojo? If I recall correctly, some Yoshikan aikidoka don't wear the hakama until sandan (someone please correct me if I'm wrong!)

At my dojo, only blackbelts wear a hakama; everyone else wears a white belt. This other dojo I visited, the instructor asked me to wear a hakama (I have one for Iaido), since his students start wearing hakama when they reach 3rd kyu. I didn't wear it the first time - and *everyone* tried correcting my technique, though I was a "higher kyu". The next visit I wore my hakama, and their treatment was *much* different. Kinda interesting how differently I was treated, because I wore a skirt.

Seriously, though...wearing a hakama usually *does* imply a certain level of "skill". There is a danger in this assumption, because since different dojos have different rules regarding the hakama (e.g., wearing one from the beginning, at 5th kyu, 3rd kyu, etc), this could cause some confusion at seminars. Of course folks *should* be somewhat cognizant of uke's skill level - regardless if uke is wearing a hakama or not - and *not* immediately throw someone through the mat. I worked with a couple older women (both black belts) at a seminar last fall, and both admonished me for trying to throw them "too hard". I also trained with a number of hakama-wearing students - who clearly were *not* blackbelts and kept deferring to me (maybe because I looked like I knew what I was doing - lol).

Anthony Stebbins wrote: ...so that others can not disect the technique. We are all very well aware that the Hakama tends to hide foot and leg movment.

Sorry Anthony but it's time for you to hit the internet and do some research. Hiding foot movements was never the reason for the hakama.

Bronson

Did O sensei wear hakama?