Aikido sparing

David Skaggs wrote: An older thread about atemi. http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5017 dps

I think George Ledyard gave the best answers there. For the Ki Aikido person who said the Taigi didn't have atemi...if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck, tastes like a duck - well, quack. Some words I have had to just stop translating as the closest word in English is too loaded with its own meaning.

Roughly paraphrased from the Bubishi (the "bible of karate") and not an exhaustive list, striking vital points can be used to cause: distraction, illicited reflexes, movement, pain, impaired motor function, impaired sensory function, impaired balance, impaired respiratory function, impaired circulatory function, organ trauma, unconsciousness, and death. Aside from death, most else can vary in severity and duration.

Kenji Tomiki was one of the earlier students of O Sensei, and he developed a set of atemi waza techniques, unlike other systems that try to say atemi is not aikido, or define it poorly, or don't teach it clearly. Tomiki did not stop with defining atemi as a posture. He also wrote about atemi's purpose: "Although the atemi-waza and kansetsu-waza can be viewed as techniques that can inflict a severe injury on an opponent, if we study the principles of the martial arts well, we realize that they are exquisite techniques for toppling (taosu) or controlling (osaeru) an opponent without necessarily harming him."

Gozo Shioda's explanation of atemi in Aikido Shugyo, "In Aikido, atemi is not limited to punching or kicking. Any part of the body can become a weapon for executing atemi. Some of you may have seen me in demonstrations use my back to repel an opponent rushing at me, or my shoulder to send my opponent flying as we pass each other. The reason these techniques work is that the contact point in itself becomes the atemi." Shioda's Yoshinkan has many explicit atemi as part of the kata.

Tomiki's atemi waza is ubiquitous. They are indeed 99% of aikido whether someone is getting hit by the movement, or responding to an attempted and prevented movement, or continuing on from the one movement. Shioda talked about 70%, but aigamaeate atemi waza became iriminage, and gyakugamae ate atemi waza became sokumen iriminage. Now Saito says kokyunage is the most common technique, but the movements are the same.

I think atemi has gone the way of aiki - a word we all use but not everyone understands and probably doesn't translate as cleanly across culture and time as we might like.

John Hillson wrote: I think George Ledyard gave the best answers there. For the Ki Aikido person who said the Taigi didn't have atemi...if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck, tastes like a duck - well, quack. Some words I have had to just stop translating as the closest word in English is too loaded with its own meaning. Roughly paraphrased from the Bubishi (the "bible of karate") and not an exhaustive list, striking vital points can be used to cause: distraction, illicited reflexes, movement, pain, impaired motor function, impaired sensory function, impaired balance, impaired respiratory function, impaired circulatory function, organ trauma, unconsciousness, and death. Aside from death, most else can vary in severity and duration. Kenji Tomiki was one of the earlier students of O Sensei, and he developed a set of atemi waza techniques, unlike other systems that try to say atemi is not aikido, or define it poorly, or don't teach it clearly. Tomiki did not stop with defining atemi as a posture. He also wrote about atemi's purpose: "Although the atemi-waza and kansetsu-waza can be viewed as techniques that can inflict a severe injury on an opponent, if we study the principles of the martial arts well, we realize that they are exquisite techniques for toppling (taosu) or controlling (osaeru) an opponent without necessarily harming him." Gozo Shioda's explanation of atemi in Aikido Shugyo, "In Aikido, atemi is not limited to punching or kicking. Any part of the body can become a weapon for executing atemi. Some of you may have seen me in demonstrations use my back to repel an opponent rushing at me, or my shoulder to send my opponent flying as we pass each other. The reason these techniques work is that the contact point in itself becomes the atemi." Shioda's Yoshinkan has many explicit atemi as part of the kata. Tomiki's atemi waza is ubiquitous. They are indeed 99% of aikido whether someone is getting hit by the movement, or responding to an attempted and prevented movement, or continuing on from the one movement. Shioda talked about 70%, but aigamaeate atemi waza became iriminage, and gyakugamae ate atemi waza became sokumen iriminage. Now Saito says kokyunage is the most common technique, but the movements are the same. I think atemi has gone the way of aiki - a word we all use but not everyone understands and probably doesn't translate as cleanly across culture and time as we might like.

Wow- nicely said.

Peter Rehse wrote: Please name a technique that was discarded from the syllabus

Of the top of my head. Iriminage, Ikkyo, Nikkyo, Yonkyo, Gokyo, Tenchinage, Kaitenage, Koshinage, Maki O Toshi, Kiri O Toshi, Aiki O Toshi. I haven't seen those techniques being performed in the basic 17 randori no kata techniques or in any of the competitions matches on youtube.

A bit more careful and more correct - when applied to Shodokan.

So the techniques that i mentioned here where not discarded from the syllabus but aren't used in competitions anymore? I am addressing Shodokan Aikido this time. I have seen, for instance, a black and white video of Kenji Tomiki doing some of the techniques i have mentioned but i don't know their status in the system today. Or was that video before he decided to create a sport version of Aikido?

I think what needs to be understood that in both Judo and Shodokan randori what is being trained is a mindset and ability to execute techniques in a dynamic environment.

That is the basic assumption of randori.

There is the danger that you restrict yourselves to the ''allowed'' techniques or worse yet your tokui waza but the underlying assumption is that that won't happen.

This is inevitable, even i have certain techniques that i prefer doing then others.

Budo should be taught, not as a collection of techniques, but of an attitude.

Excellent point.

To the point of the demos - the big problem with most of them is that the aikido guy fights on the others terms. Never a good idea.

The basic problem is that most of Aikido people haven't sparred, or had a fight in their life for that matter, with someone outside of their model of learning so they usually tend to give in to the sparring partners terms. They simply lack the experience.

Igor Vojnović wrote: Of the top of my head. Iriminage, Ikkyo, Nikkyo, Yonkyo, Gokyo, Tenchinage, Kaitenage, Koshinage, Maki O Toshi, Kiri O Toshi, Aiki O Toshi. I haven't seen those techniques being performed in the basic 17 randori no kata techniques or in any of the competitions matches on youtube.

Perhaps you need to look harder. Remember the basic 17 are performed as kihon (no grabs), against tanto strike, and almost any grab, kick or punch you care to mention. For example there are two very clear Ikkyo in the junanahon (one tekubi waza, one heiji waza) and tenchinage is basically aigemae-ate, same with Iriminage.

My post also talked about the syllabus - and as I pointed out that extends far beyond the junanahon and randori.

In tanto randori it is hard to see because the attacks themselves restrict the response but we also have toshu (both unarmed).

You should not put much faith in you tube videos.

Markus Rohde wrote: As I wrote before, normally people don't extend their arms in fighting, they don't give up control, when you try to grab them they resist, and don't relax arms for to do good ukemi.

I agree with this part. I didn't agree on the part about kinetic energy.

This is generally, not only in a sports setting.

My question was regarding the strategies to implement Aikido techniques in sport settings. I agree in the sense that these types of strategies aren't implemented enough, or used at all for that matter, in regular Aikido training. It comes from the wrong type of mindset that is fostered in many of the Aikido community.

To get into a good position for executing Aikidô techniques, you need to control ukes power and stability to weaken his ability to resist. Otherwise any effort to manipulate arms or joints immediately will be prevented, dragging and pulling begins, and the stronger person or the one that is skilled in grappling arts wins.

Basically you wan't to break your opponent's balance/posture and from that position execute a technique or throw/projection.

This can't be done by waiting for the opponents attack, trying than to use his force ore something like that, because it will not happen like in an Aikido training setting.

Again i disagree. I don't say it will happen just like in Aikido training or that it desirable for you to stay in a situation of expectation of a technique, that is why there are three levels of combat initiative in Aikido: "go no sen," "sen," and "sensen no sen" but the fact is that anytime you attack, be it punching, kicking, grabbing, pushing, pulling there is danger for you to be countered. That's why you have counter techniques in Aikido and in every martial art there is. Many counters in Judo explicitly use the opponents energy to throw him. Some not even his energy, just the position he put his body in while missing a throw and voila, he was countered. I personally learned this the hard and implemented it in a semi hard way, but before i trained in Aikido.

Of course atemi are important, but in a fight the other one defends and also uses striking techniques. So you need also a strategy and experience in fighting with atemi to be succesfull. Such a strategy normally is not part of Aikido training.

Unfortunately, i have to agree with this.

Peter Rehse wrote: Perhaps you need to look harder. Remember the basic 17 are performed as kihon (no grabs), against tanto strike, and almost any grab, kick or punch you care to mention. For example there are two very clear Ikkyo in the junanahon (one tekubi waza, one heiji waza) and tenchinage is basically aigemae-ate, same with Iriminage.

Is this video a good representative https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxa4lSu-UtE ?

Igor Vojnović wrote: Is this video a good representative https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxa4lSu-UtE ?

An interesting representation of the 17. No kuzushi and practiced with a very static uke. I know it says for beginners, but definitely not the way we approach it in our incarnation of Tomiki's system.

But cleaner than a lot that I see and clearly a different understanding of the kata than we have in our group.

Thanks for posting it.

The best way to capture the "mind/body" of an opponent is to "express intent" in such a way that the other must respond or be struck forcefully. At the point of contact by maintaining a "sticky" feeling you can enter along the lines of flaw that have been created in their structure by having been forced out of their position. The simplest example of this is how O Sensei would create the conditions for ikkyo by initiating a shomen ate and then taking the defending arm..
There are both mechanical and energetic strategies in this approach but neither of them will work if you cannot read your opponent. As an example someone who has never been hit in the face in a fight will have very little flinch response, unlike , for example, a boxer who will have some response to even the slight raise of a shoulder. Most people will, however, respond to something coming at their face with sufficient noise or drama to get their attention on the threat. Mechanically this is often referred to in JKD and some Filipino arts as "attack by draw", in other words their response is the first step in a cascade of similar events drawing to an inevitable conclusion. Working with sticks and blades make these areas clearer.
Whilst sport sparring can sharpen reflexes, encourage a calm mind under pressure and provide the opportunity for exploring henka and kaeshi waza it very rarely seems to develop the essence of aikido, which IMO is an art that is all about creating a neutral sphere of absorption and propulsion according to the intent of the attacker. This should provide the aikido exponent with a range of force continuum from virtually no action (evasion) to deadly force (e.g. irimi nage with fa jin). Of course this is dependent upon how seriously a person trains, physically and mentally, with what kind of understandings and what level of intent.
Over the years I have experimented in my dojo with gloves and headgear but I am always left disappointed with the results. It may be useful for some people who have never been hit, but without scenario work as well the emotional component is missing. If you head down that road it may produce good self defense and even some good martial athletes, but will it improve Aiki do? I don't believe so.
I guess it all depends on what you want out of your training. I still think aikido is an enormously rich method for training but it won't teach you to fight unless you can use it freely. People often say can you use it against a resisting opponent. The answer is, why would you? Either remove their resistance by seeking emptiness, ( keep their mind occupied at the point of contact and enter elsewhere) or accentuate their resistance until it travels down the path of its own demise.
Anyway, it's all nice keyboard Budo 😉

Igor Vojnović wrote: Basically you wan't to break your opponent's balance/posture and from that position execute a technique or throw/projection.

That's what I said.

Igor Vojnović wrote: Again i disagree. I don't say it will happen just like in Aikido training or that it desirable for you to stay in a situation of expectation of a technique, that is why there are three levels of combat initiative in Aikido: "go no sen," "sen," and "sensen no sen" but the fact is that anytime you attack, be it punching, kicking, grabbing, pushing, pulling there is danger for you to be countered.

These levels exist in Budo, that is right, but there are some differences how people describe the character three "sens". For O Sensei they had no meaning.

A good example is shomen uchi ikkyo, her nage attacks ukes face, and uses the defence movements to execute Ikkyo.
This is different from waiting to be attacked.

Igor Vojnović wrote: Many counters in Judo explicitly use the opponents energy to throw Him

Of course, this is part of the strategy.

Igor Vojnović wrote: Is this video a good representative https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxa4lSu-UtE ?

Not really. I think the intent was to do it for beginners so it feels over stylized to me. There are a few stylistic differences to the way I learnt it some don't bother me, some I would just let go and a few go against the grain (weak lines, levels of kuzushi). Still I won't criticize the teacher or his intent.

How about this one. Joe - the tall one - is now a deshi with Nariyama Shihan in Osaka - I have no idea whether he was when this video was taken but he does a good job here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7zbbIQkSA

https://youtu.be/cYy53JUXccA

Speaking of Nariyama. His students doing both the regular junana and ura after he talks for a little while. I can see where the movements would eventually just keep rolling back and forth.

Peter Rehse wrote: Not really. I think the intent was to do it for beginners so it feels over stylized to me. There are a few stylistic differences to the way I learnt it some don't bother me, some I would just let go and a few go against the grain (weak lines, levels of kuzushi). Still I won't criticize the teacher or his intent.

Interesting.

How about this one. Joe - the tall one - is now a deshi with Nariyama Shihan in Osaka - I have no idea whether he was when this video was taken but he does a good job here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7zbbIQkSA

Thanks for the video.

John Hillson wrote: https://youtu.be/cYy53JUXccA Speaking of Nariyama. His students doing both the regular junana and ura after he talks for a little while. I can see where the movements would eventually just keep rolling back and forth.

Great video, thanks for posting it.

Anyway, at the end of the day, if one wants to be good at sport sparring one has to spar, If one wants to be good at kata one has to do kata and if one wants to be good at self defense one has to do a lot of scenario training.

Martial arts are not too complicated.

I think some of the belief in sparring is how does paired kata lead to freedom of movement and useful reflexes? I think Peter Boylan has some interesting insights on what kata practice can be, but I am not sure it all translates into Aikido kata practice
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...433#post348433

The same thing has been said about solo practice kata in other arts as well, like some styles of karate and Kung fu. Does ritual and choreography lead to spontaneous and free movement in combat?

On the other hand, freedom is usually an illusion and misnomer especially in sport where more rules apply, or friendly sparring where conventions apply. From the videos, I would say more guided practice would be of benefit.

From Mr Boylan blog:

There has to be a reason that paired kata training remained the dominant training methodology in koryu budo from the 16th through the 19th centuries. The reason is that paired training drills, pattern practice, kata, or whatever you want to call them, are the best effective way of mastering physical technique and developing a quality mental state.

Or maybe the reason for paired kata being the dominant training methodology is koryu budo was more about acquiring social capital in the post Sengoku era than in acquiring fighting skills.

On the other hand, freedom is usually an illusion and misnomer especially in sport where more rules apply, or friendly sparring where conventions apply.

There are rules in "the street" too. People call them The Law.

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: scenario training.

One scenario checked:

https://www.facebook.com/Brazilian.J...6568675432688/

Igor Vojnović wrote: One scenario checked:

Not bad.

Another one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PIzc6qDnh8

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: Not bad. Another one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PIzc6qDnh8

Nice one.

I was told I haven't posted in a while...

With regard to the claim that aikido people often get drawn into doing their partner's art (instead of aikido):
1. It shouldn't matter. Moving with aiki transcends technique and your partner should feel that you move differently and that quality should produce some difficulty for your partner, even if not accompanied with a knowledge of the art.
2. Ever work with someone trying to get you to "do aikido"? It's ridiculous. In some respect, it's easier to play judo - "try to throw me without hitting or kicking me." Or spar, "try to punch me, or kick me. But, don't hit my crotch." But Aikido? "Okay, grab me to restrain me, but don't actually hit me. Wait, grab, but with the other foot forward. Okay, now don't move while I do my thing. But move your face because I can hit you here. No, you can't punch me yet. Okay, now keep grabbing even if it feels like you should let go..."

Paired sparring can be useful and it really shouldn't matter what the sparring scenario is. Play push hands. Or, roll on the ground. Maybe play a little french-style judo randori. I think we are conflating martial competence and aikido. There are many people who train aikido who are not competent in aiki. This disparity is illustrated when you have to embody aikido in context outside of class. This presents two great opportunities: the first is a chance to see how your stuff works outside of class, the second is to see how your stuff can snap into sister arts. Sounds like a win-win.

Jon Reading wrote: Play push hands. Or, roll on the ground.

Good examples.

When UFC was first taking off I do remember clubs where rolling on the ground was done by people who didn't know much. One guy dislocated his own shoulder, another guy needed major knee surgery. Always safer to have someone on hand who knows their stuff and you'll learn more.

Push hands - there is a progression. With the feet not moving, one hand, then two hands, then light strikes, then walking in a straight line for a set number of steps, then using the body movements to neutralize and counterattack, then a prearranged fight set, then freedom. Without the background, I didn't always know the margin of safety and education always opens my eyes to possibilities. Taught in sequence, each piece of the whole is expected to be somewhat engrained.

Sparring can encourage people to go for total freedom a little too early. Even a controlled exercise can have lots of benefits.

A thread title with 45answers and yet, only one phrase come to my mind. There can never be "Aikido sparring" the very title of the thread is a contradiction in terms.
In no real Martial Art could ever be sparring or competition. The mentality and application of such a thing belongs to the sportsman, not the warrior...

Wronger than wrong..

It depends on you and your ideas.Disagreement does not make either person "wronger than wrong"....it means you disagree.

Mary Eastland wrote: It depends on you and your ideas. Disagreement does not make either person "wronger than wrong"....it means you disagree.

This is not a disagreement about ideas or opinions. His factual statements are wrong.