Chiba Buki vs Saito Buki

From the Sen suburi comes partner practice (kihon and Owase). From Jo Suburi comes partner practice (kihon and Owase). Then Osensei's 31 Jo movement comes in it also eventuates to partner practice. Saito sensei did not change Osensei's moves (it is a sacriledge and absolutely blasphemous to change the 31 moves), however he categories them and and develop partner practice fro them, again kihon and owase. Then comes kumitachi and kumijo this is always partner practice always starting at kihon with a two second pause. The kumitach and kumijo when one gets the hang of it always ends of in owase. From the kihon of kumitach and kumijo comes all the variation. So far five years of doing weapons four days a week, Marelli sensei always pulls one varaition or technique out of the magic hat that the class has never seen before, hence takemusu aiki.

The effects on the taijutsu is amazing. Less muscles are used (after an hour training, muscles are tired), more relaxed, big kiai, lower centre of gravity, and irimis are very angular. The two dimensional aiki is replaced by three dimensional kihon, and four dimsensional owase (timing). Zanshin I noticed is stronger. less flingeing, less anticipation, Maai is exceptional.

Saito was Osensei's longest live in student; 25 years in fact. We train hard, we stick to the basic. We cannot train aikido without training weapons. Like Saito sensei said; when training taijutsu think weapons (form, kamae, maai, Zanshin), when training weapons think aiki (blend, angles, relax, harmony). I am not sure about Chiba sensei's method, but experiencing Saito's takemusu kunren method I think it is excellent.

Cromwell Salvatera wrote: Saito was Osensei's longest live in student; 25 years in fact.

Not to nitpick - but no he wasn't.

Cromwell,

Wow! That was great - thanks for chiming in and digging us out of that unnecessary silence. I do see what you are saying about how the weapons training greatly comes to influence Body Art under such a model. I think anyone set on denying the intimate relationship between body art and weapons art under Saito's paradigm would be hard-pressed to make such a point. It seems pretty obvious that it is there - even for a non-practitioner.

In your opinion, do you feel that the Saito's weapons training is primarily a weapons system (where you are learning how to use a sword and a jo) or primarily a training aid (where movements, spatial relationships, and timings particular to the use of the sword and the jo are determined by their intended relationship to Body Art)? Many non-practitioners have suggested that it is only the latter, and I have heard the same thing suggested by practitioners of the system in regards to them defending it from "attacks" from Koryu folks (i.e. folks that claim its movements are out of touch with "reality" - of course as they see it). Would you tend to agree with this or not?

Thanks in advance,
dmv

Thanx for the input Peter. Your contribution to the thread has an amazing amount of content and valuable contribution in it. When I go to training tonight I will mention to my fellow aikidokas and my senseis you know way more things about our sensei than all of us loyal and dedicated students of Iwama ryu.

David going back to the real topic of the thread. I would say that it has both aspects. A body art and a weapons system.

It is like atemi in aikido, it is part of it. Saito sensei mentioned in one of the seminars here is Sydney that aikido is 90% weapons, hence aikido is 90% atemi. From a kihon stance in ken suburi. Openings in your partner's technique has to be studied already. I guess that this mental state is very weapons oriented. How can I cut, ski, enter, owase, distance closing, avoid Ai-uch? When we get visitors from other Ryus (we are part of the big Aiki Family), The first hour of weapons really shows how much weapons one has done.

And occasionally we do armed jiuwaza up to four attackers with 2 second pauses in between techniques(that is usually the maximum attackers for this type of exercises otherwise it becomes a crowd control issue; hence very dangerous). There are Three types: First all have bockens including Tori, or second All are armed with Jo's, including tori, and last but definitely not least two holding bokkens, and two are holding Jo's, Tori picks his favourite weapon. In this particular training exercise the Saito system becomes a weapons system in itself, with the a very strong aiki flavour. I haven't participated with a full blown randori of this exercise, I have only seen it twice happen, the participants wore kendo suits and used shinais rather than Bokkens. I have never seen it done with a Jo, the full ramdori I mean. It can get really overwhelming, dangerous, fast, and definitely crazy. I can say that if tory has limited knowledge of aiki weapons, it is not kihon, he will not survive a minute of the exercise.

Well the taijutsu side is that it does improve technique, from grip to awareness, zanshin, breathing, postioning. It really helps my kokyu nage and irimi nage techniques.

Cromwell Salvatera wrote: Thanx for the input Peter. Your contribution to the thread has an amazing amount of content and valuable contribution in it. When I go to training tonight I will mention to my fellow aikidokas and my senseis you know way more things about our sensei than all of us loyal and dedicated students of Iwama ryu.

One would hope that those students don't feel the need to embellish - Saito's history doesn't require it.

You mention facts - better check the meaning of uchideshi. Not sure - then ask your senseis.

First, I want to apologize to Mr. McDougall for misspelling his name in a previous post. My sincerest apologize for my oversight. It won't happen again.

Secondly, I think the answer has been provided here. Both systems do have space to be claimed (as understood by some of their practitioners) as weapons systems AND as training tools. How much one is really this or that or not seems to be up to the individual practitioner. So, as for the word "complete," the same thing seems to apply. One will have to practice to see what "complete" may or may not come to mean. My own personal advise is to take whatever you are given, no matter how small or how great, and continue to develop it and yourself so that it can always be complete for you. For if you do not do this, even if something "complete" is handed to you, it will soon become "incomplete" via one's failure to penetrate the depths of that thing (and oneself) - where everything tends to speak of the universal or the great Oneness.

I think you nailed that point David.

Hear here!

Peter said regarding saio senseis time with the founder-

Not to nitpick - but no he wasn't

Sorry mate but yes he was, its wel documented that he was a real uchideshi for just under 25 years, that means he was with him day and night from when he retired from the railways. No other student has this UNBROKEN TIME with founder, yes there are many deshi who trained longer with the founder than saito due to the fact they started much earlier, but that is only training time through different periods in time not a constant . In iwama there is a piece of paper showing all the top shihan who trained under the founder in Iwama and the first doshu in tokyo. Its clearly shows saito was the longest uchideshi, the nest i think if i can remember was tohei at 10 years unbroken and then there alot of different people from diffrent times, so once agian yes there where many studenst like tohie and shioda and tomiki who spent longer through broken periods, but saito never broke his training time until the founder died. Also he is one of the only post was shiahn to be only taught directly by the founder and no other of his studenst , where as all the tokyo students where mostly deshi of the first doshu, there is a n interesting article by 2nd doshu explaining that there where no real uchideshi after the war at the hombu only students.

As for my first post on Saitos vs chibas. its imple what saito says he was taught directly from the founder as he was developing aikiken and jo no other person got this kind of teaching as he was around all the time during the iwama years, which meant he was part of aikidos birth, he was the one osensei would always try his new weapons and taijutsu techs on. Hiss weapons are osenseis not a seprate martial art like chibas iwama buki is iwama taijutsu there is no difference, chiba has changed his taijustsu to suit the weapons he has learned, im not saying there bad, i dont like them but that dont mean there bad. Yes chibas probably teach you how to fight with a ken in a seprate way from aikiken but osenseis weapons are unbelivably affective when you truely understand the body movement and see the taijutsu as one and the same. This was what the founder taught saito to pass on to everyone else.

Steff, take a look at this thread: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...0&page=1&pp=25

It´s a matter of semantics. And Off Topic in this thread.

Unfortunately this semms to be degenerating into a "Chiba vs Saito" thread.

I have known and been a student of Chiba Senseis since 1970 (although my contact is sporadic now due to geography) and I well remember Sensei using Saito Sensei's textbooks to teach Aikido weapons.

However Chiba Sensei continued to develop his traing in weapons; both Aikido ken & jo and Iai-do; and this has led to his perceived change of direction. He has always acknowledged Saito Senseis influenece and was I believe the first to bring him to the UK (Harrow 1977 or 78).

It is sad to see that some people in the Aikido community want to somehow set them up as rivals when in my opinion they are both integral elements in the development and evolution of Aikido.Unforunately a cult of personality seems to have grown around both men - remember they're human like us all and so are unique. That should be celebrated.

From my conversations with Chiba Sensei over the years there was no way that he saw himself in competition with Saito Sensei. I never heard him speak of his old teacher with anything but respect and perhaps we should all follow that example.

Thought this thread was meant to be about the differences between saito and chiba?
im not saying chiba is bad, i dont like his aikido from what ive seen from his students and from what ive seen of chiba on video.
I think it is very important to remember though what the differences are, which is what this thread is about, is it not?

Hi cromwell tell all at mics dojo that steff from scotland says hi. tell mic i and james i'm moving back to iwama next march for 6 months uchideshi. Ask james to contatc me but not at 2 or 3 in the morning like last time. how is the sydney dojo these days/ loved the club when i was there

Hey Stefen mate long time no see.

I will definitely say good day to the boyz for ya mate, and let James know the time difference between Sydney and Edinburgh

Hitohiro Sensei may be here next year. limited numbers so if you can drop by down under give us a yell. I will finally see the difference in the new Saito system from the Shihan himself. It was a struggle to correct my techniques initially but eventually this old body followed.

Stefan said good day as well. Mic Sensei split Stefan's jo in half doing the 31 owase when he was called in the middle. hehehe dark spotted gum, hard wood mate, $130 bucks down the drain. And the funny thing is Mic Marelli Sensei was using the lighter jo hehehe. Better the expensivem jo than a cracked skull. Howz Tom Anderson, is he still actively Evangelical about the good news of Iwama Ryu?

A question to the Chiba Sensei weapons practitioners:

Do your weapons system incorporate the use of tanto (suburi and dori) and shuriken training?

A little tanto work. No shuriken. We do do Iaido though.

Iaido.. ?

Iaido in aikido (it also rhymes)

I think that is a unique feature of Chiba sensei Buki.

I am pretty sure that Nishio also had Iaido made part of their overall training in his organization.

Pardon my ignorance, what style is Nishio?

Nishio was 8th dan Aikikai, 7th dan Iaido, 4th dan Judo and Karate, accomplished in Jodo and Spear. NIshio Aikido can fairly be seen as a distinct style.

Sadly he died in March this year.

When people like Chiba, Saotome and Nishio and others bring real weapons skills to Aikido they enhance it for all of us.

Sounds like Nishio sensei knows a lot. It always saddens me that such talent has left our world. May he rest in peace. I hope his spirit alive in your aiki.

The incorporation of Iai practice is not unique to the styles of either Chiba Sensei or Nishio Sensei. Not all of the uchideshi/shihan sent from Hombu Dojo to promote Aikido worldwide were particularly forthcoming in teaching Iaido to their students, but most seem to have some appreciation of and familiarity with this facet of training. It is my understanding that the late Kanai Sensei, for example, only began to introduce his students in New England to Iaido after he had been established there for more or less a decade. In the schools of his that I have trained in, Iaido seems to be considered "separate from but complementary to" Aikido. In Chiba Sensei's style, Iai Batto-Ho seems to me to be considered a little more integral to the ryu.

A side-note on stances: Chiba Sensei's markedly linear Aiki posture is actually more literally hanmi, i.e. "half body". His Iaido posture is wider; I have heard it called a kenjutsu posture by my teachers. What I find interesting is that he has separated those two settings, whereas Kanai Sensei's sword posture appears to have influenced his Aikido posture as well (wider, not linear). I thin that is interesting and important to see these two different approaches from two learned contemporaries.

forgive my ignorance, but what is Chiba Buki?

There is nothing really called "Chiba Buki," but folks are using that phrase here to refer to weapons training as prescribed or laid out by T.K. Chiba, Shihan - from the San Diego Aikikai.

I learned a set of 8+1 sword patterns - cut thrust-cut on a UKA summer school with Chiba Sensei in the UK in 1990. I liked them so 'kept' them and still practise them. In fact, it is one one of the vids I recently uploaded to Google Video. I just hope I have the order right ... At that time, Chiba taught some Iaido, and I also remember his different jo tsuki where the rear hand finishes up under the front arm's elbow. Rather than being 'wrong' I see it as 'different' - being able to thrust a little further.

Rupert Atkinson wrote: I also remember his different jo tsuki where the rear hand finishes up under the front arm's elbow. Rather than being 'wrong' I see it as 'different' - being able to thrust a little further.

I've been told that it has something to do with armour penetration, too. Not that we wear armour that often in the dojo...