Relax....HOW?

I agree with Kevin that "relaxed" is not "collapsed." I like to illustrate the concept by structural examples -- in this instance a hanging cable or rope. It has a natural shape created by carrying its own weight. The interesting thing is that regardless how large small the span or how long or short the cable, that shape is always EXACTLY the same shape, just at different scales.

People have a tendency to anticipate loads and changes in loads on the body caused by movement, impact, bearing or lifting. Every single one of these anticipatory changes is suki -- an exploitable opening, because it is responding to a mentally created illusion of a factual situation that does not (yet) exist. The mind perceives a contemplated loading and is trying to adapt ahead of the load because it wishes a greater margin of time to manipulate it consciously. But this is completely unnecessary -- and made necessary, only because most people already carry themselves around in an almost constant state of anticipatory "lock-up." This is most noticeable in the shoulders and in the hips where the two major load conversion centers are (upper cross and lower dantien), if you prefer.

If you take a hanging cable, chain or rope and hang a weight on it, it automatically and instantly adopts the necessary shape to carry the load with minimum stress. If you hang two weights in different locations it does the same thing, or three or four or a dozen. There is no mind involved in this, and no anticipation is necessary for the structure to accomplish it.

Long answer short -- if you carry the weight of your body as a hanging chain carries its own weight, then you will find that the structure itself tends to adapt in much the same manner as the hanging cable and little mental intervention is required. The body is more complex and supercritical, and the cables are spirally arranged rather than simple planar cable spans -- but even so, the same laws apply -- just in a narrower range and in one extra dimension. There is nervous system involved but mostly spinal and cerebellar arcs, not higher brain functions.

This is "relaxed." Once you learn the intuitive shape (and its differently appearing scales) that responds to loading by instantaneous adaptation, you can learn to invert the process of adaptation and then you can drive structure by use of that shape dynamically. That process of instantaneously shifting an adaptive load through connected structures is very different from the "anticipatory" joint-levered tension, unconnected to any load, that we started with. That adaptive process is what we mean by kokyu tanden ho.

David Skaggs wrote: Imagine being accosted by an assailant and saying to them "can you just wait while I do some deep inquiry , then I'll be ready"? At least running around the block will get you away from the assailant. David

Proper maai to safely deal with a .50 cal. BMG ~ slightly under a mile and a half.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: My thoughts exactly David. I think what we have going on is two different focuses on training in some respect. Toby Threadgill actually wrote a very good essay on this issue that sums up the issue for me. http://www.shinyokai.com/Essays_PCSConditioning.htm

Excellent article Kevin, thanks for posting. Food for thought for anyone involved in martial arts/self defence. In essence there are 2 levels of relaxation attainable 1) that which is gained through practice in the dojo, which can be deep and satisfying and 2) that which is gained by high intensity/stress training, mimicing real violence, where hopefully the dojo skills learned will be utilised. Most will only ever get, or want relaxation 1, however relaxation 2 may just save your life.

regards,

Mark

Kevin Leavitt wrote: My thoughts exactly David. I think what we have going on is two different focuses on training in some respect. Toby Threadgill actually wrote a very good essay on this issue that sums up the issue for me. http://www.shinyokai.com/Essays_PCSConditioning.htm

Excellent link Kevin thanks.

David

i agree with everyone who picked 'exhaustion' on the game board! ding ding ding ding ding!!!!!! then your body just moves. and eventually the movement becomes second nature.

and one of the worse things to do is to 'try' to relax. or 'think' about relaxing. then you start thinking too much about how to do it, and you can't. one of my instructors would say as soon as someone tells you to relax, you can't.

I might succeed and yet never understand how I succeeded in the execution.

Amen.

Best,
Ron

Honto ni - Roppokai no yawara kaku waza desu

Beeru to Osake to Shochu

Relaxing is a red herring. The real problem is connecting to them so you can control them without allowing them to connect to you in return. That's a lot more complex. Now you can't do that without some degree of relaxation. But... the relaxation isn't the goal, just a necessary part of a much bigger picture.

For relaxation... I'm more inclined to go for a double, ice-cold, very dry Sapphire Martini with two or three good quality olives.

Or a really good Bordeaux, a piece of really good chocolate, and a good book.

Jerome Cervantes wrote: i agree with everyone who picked 'exhaustion' on the game board! ding ding ding ding ding!!!!!! then your body just moves. and eventually the movement becomes second nature.

Strange... when I'm exhausted my body refuses to move at all. My reflexes are dull and it is really hard to respond at all much less by reflex, certainly not at all accurately. Now if I am just tired enough, mentally, to take the edge off I do find that it helps me to slow down and feel what I am doing allow it to happen instead of making it happen.

Erick's illustration about the rope is very interesting. Something to give some consideration to. Thank you for that post.

Cherie Cornmesser wrote: Strange... when I'm exhausted my body refuses to move at all. My reflexes are dull and it is really hard to respond at all much less by reflex, certainly not at all accurately. Now if I am just tired enough, mentally, to take the edge off I do find that it helps me to slow down and feel what I am doing allow it to happen instead of making it happen. Erick's illustration about the rope is very interesting. Something to give some consideration to. Thank you for that post.

Understand when you are exhausted your body gets tired of moving. That is the whole point of training this way. You are now at a point of vital conservation in which you must move very, very economical and very efficient. You should start realizing the true "cost" of movement and energy that may not be present when you have all your faculties present and a higher margin of error, or strength to compensate.

I find once I have exhausted my large muscle groups to the point that they are essentially useless, I must use my core, make choices based on economy of movement etc.

Everything now matters and it is very apparent whereas before this point, it was not.

Yeah it sucks because it is harder and yeah it sucks because I may not be as good, or my reflexes may not be as responsive, but removing these things allows for a different level of training that is vital if you ever expect to learn the full spectrum of trainng.

Maybe it also depends on what you start with. I absolutely am not more relaxed when I'm exausted, instead I start to compensate with muscles that are not optimal for the movements. But I'm pretty relaxed when I'm not tired!

It's a very small sample but I notice in this thread none of the women find exhaustion a good aid to relaxation?

I do find occasionally training to the point of exhaustion is useful for training spirit and being able to keep going even when your thinking gets more fuzzy and that sort of thing.

kvaak
Pauliina

I try not to practise when I'm physically exhausted - I think that past a certain point, one is more prone to injury. Maybe when you're so advanced that you do the right thing naturally, this isn't an issue, but it still is for me. (Although one wonders if, by the time one is that good, one isn't in their late forties at least, and should therefore be taking better care of their liver, etc. than forcing their bodies to glucose starvation...)

WOW! thanks to all who responded I,m going to have to meditate on this thread for a while.thanks

Terms. Hmm.
"relax" - I usually associate with feet up on a nice day and a cold beer at hand.
"reflex" - uncontrolled response to a stimulus
"respond" - controlled response to a stimulus...

A "shock absorber" gives the springs in the car a controlled response to displacements of the suspension system.

An analogous response mechanism in a trained person might be something they might call "relaxed", but it isn't really relaxed. Ready to blend with a movement and act as a dampening mechanism - that's not relaxed, but it's also not tense - it's something between the two states.
RELAX - yell it out to someone, and watch their shoulders rise up around their ears. Explain the dampening response (but that's not quite it, either), and people start to get away from being stiff.

Sorry - the sedatives from this morning's procedure are still with me - off to bed for a while.

Cheers,
Walter

The terms are used in so many different ways! (viz http://www.springerlink.com/content/4tlcla11dyp7vw3h/)
But there are voluntary and involuntary reflexes, and most of what we think of involving skeletal muscle are voluntary. One can learn to modulate voluntary reflexes, depending on how far up the central nervous system the signal goes and how many neurons are involved, and they can be faster or slower, which is I think what Kevin was talking about.

Listen to your body and feel what is not relaxed (what is tense) then really isolate and tense even more then release the tension. Sure, during execution of technique you will get your timing off so don't practice this during technique! There are a great many times during the day in which one becomes tensed so practive resolving tension then and it will carry over.

Start small. Notice the tension in the jaw and/or face (this can lead to tension headaches) so when you feel this tension then isolate, tense and release. It will happen faster with practice. Evenually you can skip the tension part and jump directly to isolate and release.

The next step is likely the shoulders which are universally tense unless specifically trained not to be so.

Once you get good at noticing, identification, isolation nd releasing of tension now you can work on finding the source of the tension and ways to short circuit the start of tension by noticing the triggers.

This works by giving tools to deal with tension by working backwards from "I've got too much tension and now here is how to release it" up to "Oh! that is a trigger that can lead to tension so now I can resolve before the tension sets in".

If you get along to dealing with the face and shoulder tension then rest of the body falls into place (usually). Some folks are just tense from head to toe so they have to work extra hard on more areas.

Works pretty good for me anyway.

I find once I have exhausted my large muscle groups to the point that they are essentially useless, I must use my core, make choices based on economy of movement etc.

Hmm economy and efficiency of movement and core use are already pretty much instinct for me. My horsemanship training pretty much gives me an advantage on that. I just need to learn the feel of the aikido movements and train my body to respond in that pattern. One thing I have read and would recommend trying is to take up riding. I've heard it said that it can improve ones aikido... aikido certainly is improving my horsemanship, or rather returning it to what it once was.. If anyone should take that serious look for an instructor that is familiar with centered riding techniques and Sally swift.

I don't disagree that this kind of training might be valuable. Until I have experienced it I can't judge.And I am told by, someone who knows me well, that I would actually find it beneficial with the right teaching and at the right time for it. But I really think its not for the beginner either.

Thank u 4 asking the question. This is something i have been struggling with ,i get so tense that i have tired quicly during practice . I appreciaet the advice . I like what you'll have said bout relaxation will come in time as my aikido improves and I feel more confident and comfortable with the training environment . It makes sense though I had not considered that. Tahnks for the enlightment.

Ramon Moreira wrote: I like what you'll have said bout relaxation will come in time as my aikido improves and I feel more confident and comfortable with the training environment .

not in agreement with that statement. you trained in tension for 20 years, still tension. it depends on training methodology. i'll plagiarized some systema stuffs here. tension comes in three forms: physical, mental, and emotional. they have interdependency with each others. easiest to deal with is physical.

Phi Truong wrote: not in agreement with that statement. you trained in tension for 20 years, still tension. it depends on training methodology. i'll plagiarized some systema stuffs here. tension comes in three forms: physical, mental, and emotional. they have interdependency with each others. easiest to deal with is physical.

Haven't thought about it this way before, but I believe this is a good way to look at it...of course it is all realitive!

In many ways, I think the physical CAN be the easiest to deal with, certainly it is the most TANGIBLE and QUANTIFIABLE form.

So, when we go into "Neural Override", or deal with an amount of physical force we are not comfortable with, then it taxes the mental/emotional areas which control/influence the physical...which is a vicious cycle so to speak.

I don't believe you can detach the three, of course as they each affect the other, so while we can say the physical is the easiest...in isolation of the other two...I agree...however, the mental and emotional aspects are so intertwined with the physical...I don't think it really is possible to say this in a way that is pratical or applicable to reality..which therein...lay the paradox!

Cherie Cornmesser wrote: Hmm economy and efficiency of movement and core use are already pretty much instinct for me. My horsemanship training pretty much gives me an advantage on that. I just need to learn the feel of the aikido movements and train my body to respond in that pattern. One thing I have read and would recommend trying is to take up riding. I've heard it said that it can improve ones aikido... aikido certainly is improving my horsemanship, or rather returning it to what it once was.. If anyone should take that serious look for an instructor that is familiar with centered riding techniques and Sally swift. I don't disagree that this kind of training might be valuable. Until I have experienced it I can't judge.And I am told by, someone who knows me well, that I would actually find it beneficial with the right teaching and at the right time for it. But I really think its not for the beginner either.

ah...this might be a big part of the disconnect!

It appears that you are looking at the kinesthic practice of aikido as a way to improve your horsemanship. No issues if that is working for you. Certainly you don't need to train this way if this is your goal! Horses don't really pin you on the ground and beat the crap out of you, nor do they deliberately attempt to thwart your attempts to overcome them or to escalate things to a point of putting you at a tactical disadvantage.

Translated: they don't fight.

No doubt Horsemanship can improve your aikido. There are lots of practices that can improve your aikido. Playing Go, fencing, Yoga...etc.

For me, though aikido is a means to the end, not the end, so that being the case...it is a tool or methodology for understanding the physical applicaitons of conflict or fighting.

So, with that in mind, I believe we are looking at the same thing differently, therefore, their would be a different focus on value of skills.

So, with that in mind, physical stressful overload and learning to deal with it from my perspecitve (and many in that focus on the martial practice) is of primary importance...that is, once you hit a threshold of beyond that of comfort or experience how do you "relax".

Kevin Leavitt wrote: I don't believe you can detach the three, of course as they each affect the other, so while we can say the physical is the easiest...in isolation of the other two...I agree...however, the mental and emotional aspects are so intertwined with the physical...I don't think it really is possible to say this in a way that is pratical or applicable to reality..which therein...lay the paradox!

whole heart in agreement with you. thing is we need a starting point, which i believed the easiest and more apparent is physical. i remembered Hooker sensei said at one of the seminar "you need to enter his mind through his body, then enter his body through his mind." of course, Hooker sensei was hitting Sparkman sensei in the small rib area at the time. which later, Hooker sensei gave Sparkman sensei feet massage where Sparkman proclaimed his love for Hooker sensei, which is the emotional side of the fence. so the lesson i learned that day was you start with physical, then mental, then emotional. this is in line with the formula for success from the Dog Whisperer dude: exercise (physical), discipline (mental), and affection (emotional), in that order.

Yup agree...starting point is key and a great verbalization of that Phi, again, i never really looked it this way, but starting point is what it is.

Here are some thoughts..just for fun, okay..? (and i am not even sure if this is obvious .. or even wrong) .. so take it with a big grain of salt..

I thought the OP wanted to know how to deal with getting hit, in a relaxed way.
I don't know how to do that. I suspect the answer is to train your body in anti-aiki to absorb (?) that .. i remember reading about ‘terrible' punches that could be absorbed and redirected (to the ground)..but i know nothing other than the possibility that this may exist.
I am still tense when i get punched. I find that tensing of the outer muscles protects the inner stuff/guts. I don't really know of any other way. I understand ‘relaxing' here...to mean "not being brittle"..but still flexing or inflating the body to absorb the hit. If anyone has ideas here (other than getting hit 10,000 times to get used to it), I'd love to hear it. At this point i still think it is a matter of conditioning (i.e. taking the 10thousand) to be relaxed for that; but I am all ears and would love to hear more..

Regarding relaxing ...specifically tiring yourself out...well..these are some ideas (which are certainly not new..). If i'm wrong; maybe you can tell me where it goes pear shaped (or what i'm missing)..
Okay; it starts like this
1. I'm thinking that the muscles and tendons of the body are marvelous ‘devices' that are designed to do one thing: animate the skeletal system. They provide motion and motive forces .. to move the skeleton around. That is their function. To move the body itself. (read: not to move other stuff or bodies)
2. Any ‘external load' (visualize a 5lb weight carried by your arms straight in front of, parallel to the ground, with the weight cantilevered outward) is a different type of load. In this "normal" way of ‘lifting' you are now ‘carrying' the load in the muscles. Probably the shoulders, for this example.

Here's the thinking; Relax means doing what you need to do to maintain your own body's structural integrity. This is priority 1. Just BE. Strongly. And it will certainly include flexing some parts.
Don't think of ‘doing something' to somebody. Don't think of ‘carrying' a weight. Don't think of pushing uke. Don't *do* anything as a priority..instead shift the thinking to make it a priority to try to keep your body integrity. Try to make whatever external thing is happening a *part* of you. Let the load disperse across the entire skeletal system. Let the load 'in'. (safely!) Consider any load borne in the body's muscles, in the normal way, it is a stimulus that attempts to destroy your structural integrity. To negate and fight that 'attack' , usually you locally flex that muscle and carry the load there...in the flexed muscle. (shoulder, for instance) But now we shift to think that relaxing means _not_ carrying the load...but rather includes doing what you have to, in order to negate that destructive force by keeping your own body's integrity intact.

In the example of the cantilevered weight; consider what happens when you lift it over your head. Now a straight down path through your body to the ground. You don't ‘feel' the weight borne on the muscles of your body in nearly the same way. Now it kind of becomes just like your own body weight; borne by the body...so you've managed to make the load like a part of your own body. Now you have shifted and are using the muscles of your own body in a way much closer to what they are designed to do (i.e. animate the skeletal system). Obviously moving the weight over your head to establish a ground path is not always feasible. But perhaps there are ways to do it in the body....

What i think happens when you train to exhaustion beforehand is namely that you implicitly are too tired to ‘lift' and ‘push' around a load in a local, external muscle-born load...and (hopefully) you will default and do it in the ‘laziest' way possible...that becomes part of you...
Now...it bears saying that there are ways and there are ways to let it become part of you. I think there is a great depth here..

I am sure to butcher this quote; but I remember reading where O Sensei talks about the rhythm of the universe being in the feet, but the rhythm of man is in the hands. I came to read that to mean MOVE YOUR FEET. MOVE YOUR BODY to the right place. Don't carry weight in the muscles by catching the load with the hands (which is normal for man). .. (or something like that).

(disclaimer: I do not think that this is IT or IP or IS...but one of the things on the way to it)

That's just what i think (at this point)...
I am curious to hear your responses to this

p.s. I really like what Josh Reyer said about keeping the tension internalized in the abdomen. I believe that is consistent with what I wrote...because keeping the hips (/spine) and torso in integrity will be strongly aided by a strong abdomen. I think this alludes to 'body organization'...

pps. Sorry for the length; I find it hard to be precise and succinct with physical descriptions.

Best,
Josh P.

Josh Phillipson wrote: so take it with a big grain of salt..

Sea salt or Epsom salt or table salt or salt-flat's salt?

Josh Phillipson wrote: I don't know how to do that. I suspect the answer is to train your body in anti-aiki to absorb (?) that .. i remember reading about ‘terrible' punches that could be absorbed and redirected (to the ground)..but i know nothing other than the possibility that this may exist. I am still tense when i get punched. I find that tensing of the outer muscles protects the inner stuff/guts. I don't really know of any other way. Josh P.

tensing muscle just hurt more. so stop doing that. try this. breath in and expand your stomach, keep it expand but not compress the breath, have someone to hit you in the stomach (not too hard). now try to tensing up your stomach muscle (contract your stomach like you would do a sit up) and have someone hit you in the same place. notice the difference in the feel to you. the systema folks would love for you to tense up, because you've done half of the work for them. i believed my earlier posting on the systema drill would help you to deal with strikes.

personally, i started to dislike the term "relax". i think i like the term "staying loose" better.