Complementary Aikido Styles

Cassia Rose Heatley wrote: Oh no, don't get me wrong, I am not insinuating that women cannot be good at Judo nor that they should not undertake it, I am questioning his assertation, not voicing my belief. I have seen some footage of excellent female judoka. I believe the injury points are valid though likewise you can say many people suffer from injury problems with Aikido as well - particularly the knees, as myself - so that they even stop suwari waza entirely or do not take certain ukemi. Is it more likely to be injured in Judo? Yes. Does BJJ also come with it's own risks of injury? (Quite possibly greater than that of Aikido) Also yes.

I agree that BJJ does come with an injury risk as well, but disagree that the injury risk is greater than that of Aikido. This is just based on my limited experience in Aikido and BJJ. In BJJ class, we rarely practiced standing on our feet. There is thus less distance to fall to hit the mat, and thus less chance of injury.

In BJJ you are in near constant contact with your partner, so both of you have a lot more control over how much damage can be done.

Cassia Rose Heatley wrote: Even if my own athleticism were not up to scratch for the art, is that a reason to avoid it? Should nobody that is unfit take up a martial art because it will be difficult?

Note that it was not I who questioned your athleticism or fitness level. In Judo a lot of class time is devoted to strength and conditioning exercises that will improve one's fitness level. The exercises are not impossible to perform, for a reasonably healthy person, but are much more demanding than what I have observed in the 5 or so Aikido dojo that I have seen or trained at. You roll across the dojo like in Aikido, but then also do shrimps and other grappling type moves across the mat, carry your partner, jump over partners, etc.

Cassia Rose Heatley wrote: If we are looking at lifetime value, Aikido itself offers one of the longest durations in terms of until what age you can remain a practitioner. Does that mean we should only train at Aikido because sooner or later other arts would have to be dropped?

I cannot answer these questions but they are worth considering. It might be interesting for you to save them then look at them again in, say, 10 years.

My opinion is that one will get more value out of a lifetime of BJJ training than Judo training, barring some radical reimagining of Judo. BJJ itself was such a reimagining. But it is just that - an opinion, not a definitive answer.

Paolo Valladolid wrote: The exercises are not impossible to perform, for a reasonably healthy person, but are much more demanding than what I have observed in the 5 or so Aikido dojo that I have seen or trained at. You roll across the dojo like in Aikido, but then also do shrimps and other grappling type moves across the mat, carry your partner, jump over partners, etc.

Shrimps are not the best squat exercises because they are bad for the knees, just like pistol squats, the rest is just basic warm ups that are supposed to be done in any dojo. How do they do warm ups in those 5 or so dojo's?

Igor Vojnović wrote: Shrimps are not the best squat exercises because they are bad for the knees, just like pistol squats, the rest is just basic warm ups that are supposed to be done in any dojo. How do they do warm ups in those 5 or so dojo's?

Shrimps are not a squat exercise

Peter Gröndahl wrote: Shrimps are not a squat exercise

He's thinking about shrimp squats.

Igor Vojnović wrote: Shrimps are not the best squat exercises because they are bad for the knees, just like pistol squats, the rest is just basic warm ups that are supposed to be done in any dojo. How do they do warm ups in those 5 or so dojo's?

The shrimp exercise in Judo is a grappling movement, not a squat. Perhaps you call it something different in your native language.

Igor Vojnović wrote: How do they do warm ups in those 5 or so dojo's?

Your post leaves the impression that you think that Judo warmups are the same as in Aikido dojo. In my experience, that is not true, but maybe it is true in your country. I have never seen the Judo shrimp movement in any Aikido dojo. That is just one example.

In any case, if you really care about whether you're right or not, go take a Judo class.

Paolo Valladolid wrote: The shrimp exercise in Judo is a grappling movement, not a squat. Perhaps you call it something different in your native language.

My mistake then, if you mean this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0c__MAS0DU exercise then yes i have done it in my dojo along with jumping over people, carrying people aka fireman carry and whatnot. Also it's not a grappling exercise it's a military drill that happens to be a very good overall physical exercise although the guy in the video does it a bit akin to PE class.

Paolo Valladolid wrote: Your post leaves the impression that you think that Judo warmups are the same as in Aikido dojo. In my experience, that is not true, but maybe it is true in your country. I have never seen the Judo shrimp movement in any Aikido dojo. That is just one example. In any case, if you really care about whether you're right or not, go take a Judo class.

No, but many warm up drills are universal, and they can bee sen as part of the regular PE class, at least in my country.

Igor Vojnović wrote: No, but many warm up drills are universal, and they can bee sen as part of the regular PE class, at least in my country.

Interesting.

I've only been to Aikido dojo in the United States. The warmups tended to include wrist stretches (ikkyo, nikkyo, etc.), some joint mobility stuff, some other stretches, and of course some aiki taiso stuff.

No wrist stretches, aiki taiso, etc. in any Judo club I've seen. Instead we jumped over 1-4 partners (with roll after jump), carried partners, practiced bridging movements like the shrimp across the mat, etc.

The only thing I recall seeing in common between Aikido and Judo warmups was the practice of the forward roll. I think it's because Judo clubs want to train their members for competitions. In a tournament, if you win your match, you will have to fight in another match. If you win that one, you will have to fight again, and so on. Thus you might have to fight multiple matches in the same day. That requires conditioning.

Granted I have never been to a Shodokan Aikido dojo that actively participates in competition. Perhaps I would see more similarity to Judo warmups. Or maybe not.

From what little I recall of BJJ, we did some of the same drills as in Judo, but not as much class time was allocated to that. Instead, we got most of our conditioning from sparring. Class was typically structured as warmup/exercise, then technique practice, then sparring to end the class. I think we sparred in 5 min. rounds. It can be pretty exhausting, especially if you are the type of student that expends more effort than necessary. From what I hear, this is typical for people new to a ground grappling art - one tends to get a bit anxious/excited when someone is lying on top of you, so you waste a lot of energy trying to escape.

Paolo Valladolid wrote: From what I hear, this is typical for people new to a ground grappling art - one tends to get a bit anxious/excited when someone is lying on top of you, so you waste a lot of energy trying to escape.

I once caused a partner to suffer an anxiety attack, it's scary. Since then I avoid playing top with newbies until they get used to this kind of claustophobic feeling.

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: I once caused a partner to suffer an anxiety attack, it's scary. Since then I avoid playing top with newbies until they get used to this kind of claustophobic feeling.

Dayyum. I don't blame you.

When I started BJJ, I often got a sparring partner who would tell me to relax and give me some coaching/encouragement, instead of just submitting me immediately.

Haven't done BJJ in years though, so if/when I resume training in it, I'll be a total beginner again. Not that I was ever good at it.

Cassia Rose Heatley wrote: No individual reason really. I wanted a place to meet more people, to improve my balance, feel a little safer in the city and following the "samurai martial art" sounded fun. And hell, the hakama makes everything look cool, I liked what I saw at my dojo. Anyway, ultimately I would probably try both BJJ and Judo to see which felt better, both seem to fill the gaps where Aikido lacks. I have always enjoyed strength-based sports so grappling would likely be refreshing.

All this discussion of squats reminds me of what Tohei Sensei said in an interview:

Also, having been away from judo for nearly two years, by the time I got my second dan, everybody else was already ranked fourth or fifth dan. Even many of the third dans had progressed so far ahead of me that they could throw me all over the place. That wasn't very interesting and it wasn't much fun, either. Hoping to strengthen myself, I went home and started kicking lightly at the support pillars around the house. After doing that a couple of thousand times a day, though, the walls started to come down. My elder sister wasn't very pleased about that and made me go outside in the garden instead. After a few weeks I got so I could move my feet with the same agility and dexterity as my hands. I went back to the dojo and was able to throw everybody. [...] I had been thinking what a poor state of affairs it was that I could train on my own for a couple of weeks and come back and throw everyone in the judo dojo. "Why bother with a martial art like that?"

I've noticed that students with greater leg strength tend to do better in Aikido in general. There have also been people who thought highly of the shihans who started Aikido after doing Judo first. My own solo practices seem to support this too. Not to mention the best junior I have is a track-and-field athlete.

Amos Barnett wrote: All this discussion of squats.

What discussion of squats?

The lady wants to know about whether to try BJJ or Judo, so that's what the discussion has been about.

I think she's making the right call - to try both and see which one she likes more.

Peter Rehse wrote: Well a picture is worth a thousand words and a video, I guess, is worth 10,000. The wikipedia article is pretty white bread due to a concerted effort to be neutral and even; which is as it should be. The problem with videos is they rarely present the system but moment in time, a particular aspect, or a demo by some practitioners. As said - can be better than wikipedia - but still .....

The original topic was how to determine which seminars that would be interesting to attend. I think that Youtube can give me a better feeling if something is interesting enough to spend time and money on than wikipedia. In most cases you can see the teacher in question, not just the style.

Igor Vojnović wrote: Then i will put it like this. If you wish to feel safer and add something useful to your Aikido training, boxing with a touch of knees and elbows for close encounter situations (not Muay Thai but something in the sense of Dutch kickboxing with a bit more defense oriented mind), is the best option. You will see that certain Aikido techniques have openings for elbow hits (kotegaeshi) and knees hits (Kaitenage, Ikkyo) so they are a good trait to add. Also the footwork in Aikido is similar, some movements are identical, to boxing footwork because they both come from sword/fencing movements. The whole point is that you have to learn to take a punch and how to deal with timing of attacks/defense and distance, which are all equally important in Aikido as well as boxing. Once you have established that then you can try adding bits from any other type of grappling art although i don't recommend them as self defense for women, the best would a couple trips from Judo and the BJJ defenses and escapes on the ground, full mount especially.

Note that you asked why I wanted to start Aikido, not what I would want in a supplementary MA, my initial and basic needs are fulfilled with my current training. For future cross-training what I would seek would be something to fill in the absence of particular training in Aikido. So something that would make me capable of defending myself if I was taken down to the ground primarily, to win a less coordinated struggle in unexpected circumstances. Hence, BJJ or Judo, as they have grappling whilst Aikido does not. Also I would go for something harder, Aikido is good for slower and more predictable attacks (and ones you see coming) but having something that can "turn the tide" when things go wrong would be good. Though admittedly kickboxing/boxing of some kind might also help due to the, er, often "insincere" nature of Aikido atemi.

Paolo Valladolid wrote: Note that it was not I who questioned your athleticism or fitness level. In Judo a lot of class time is devoted to strength and conditioning exercises that will improve one's fitness level. The exercises are not impossible to perform, for a reasonably healthy person, but are much more demanding than what I have observed in the 5 or so Aikido dojo that I have seen or trained at. You roll across the dojo like in Aikido, but then also do shrimps and other grappling type moves across the mat, carry your partner, jump over partners, etc.

My apologies, that was not meant directly to you as an accusation, just a general observation re the fitness aspect being brought up as a concern.

Peter Gröndahl wrote: The original topic was how to determine which seminars that would be interesting to attend. I think that Youtube can give me a better feeling if something is interesting enough to spend time and money on than wikipedia. In most cases you can see the teacher in question, not just the style.

True, it kind of developed into cross-training another MA which I would not undertake at present. Sometimes watching and feeling can be very different though, some of the softer aikido I have seen does not illicit a positive response for me when I watch it, but if I try it and feel it, perhaps that will be different. In that case though, there's only one way to know as everyone is different.

Peter Gröndahl wrote: The original topic was how to determine which seminars that would be interesting to attend. I think that Youtube can give me a better feeling if something is interesting enough to spend time and money on than wikipedia. In most cases you can see the teacher in question, not just the style.

So it was (quick reread) and yes for exactly your reasons. Youtube is a great source to give you an idea of what you will face if you decide to spend your money. They won't give you much insight into the style but generally, unless you are already in it, who the teacher is is much more important.

Paolo Valladolid wrote: Dayyum. I don't blame you.

But I blame myself. Should have been paying more attention.

Cassia Rose Heatley wrote: Though admittedly kickboxing/boxing of some kind might also help due to the, er, often "insincere" nature of Aikido atemi.

Not 100% sure but I think I've read some time ago Mr. Tissier crosstrained in Kickboxing while he was studying Aikido in Japan.

Cassia Rose Heatley wrote: Note that you asked why I wanted to start Aikido, not what I would want in a supplementary MA,

Yes i know, that's why i am answering for one of the reasons you stated above.

my initial and basic needs are fulfilled with my current training. For future cross-training what I would seek would be something to fill in the absence of particular training in Aikido.

And what i wrote is primarily absent from most Aikido, no matter of style or instructor. Especially at the beginning and many times even on high levels of training.

So something that would make me capable of defending myself if I was taken down to the ground primarily, to win a less coordinated struggle in unexpected circumstances. Hence, BJJ or Judo, as they have grappling whilst Aikido does not.

And what do you do in Aikido while trying to perform a technique other then grappling? If you are talking about ground/mat/parterre grappling then for Aikido i would suggest catch/freestyle wrestling then Judo or BJJ. Some techniques in Aikido are in fact from Sumo and perhaps some are from western type of wrestling.

Also I would go for something harder, Aikido is good for slower and more predictable attacks (and ones you see coming) but having something that can "turn the tide" when things go wrong would be good. Though admittedly kickboxing/boxing of some kind might also help due to the, er, often "insincere" nature of Aikido atemi.

This isn't about the insincerity of atemi, this is about the dynamics of movement in a confrontation. You can make atemi sincere without any supplementary training but the dynamics of movement is something that is neglected in the training in Aikido, that is why it would be good for you to add boxing, with a bit of elbows and knees, so you can see faster progress in your Aikido dynamics. As for the grappling part, like i said, a couple of trips from Judo and the BJJ defenses escapes on the ground.

As for the topic of the thread, my suggestion would be Iwama (as close to Hitohiro Saito as posible), Shodokan and someone who trains under Hiroshi Tada from the Aikikai. That would be a good supplementary to Tissier "style" of Aikido.

Igor Vojnović wrote: As for the topic of the thread, my suggestion would be Iwama (as close to Hitohiro Saito as posible).

Why as close to Hitohira (he has changed his name) as possible?

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: Not 100% sure but I think I've read some time ago Mr. Tissier crosstrained in Kickboxing while he was studying Aikido in Japan.

"He practiced Kickboxing at the legendary Meijiro Gym under Shima Mitsuo and Fujiwara Toshio, the greatest champions of their time, and he even took part in several fights on the ring."

http://www.guillaumeerard.com/aikido...th-dan-aikikai

Peter Gröndahl wrote: Why as close to Hitohira (he has changed his name) as possible?

Well, he is the soon of Morihiro Saito so he is probably the best representative of Iwama and his fathers way of teaching and therefore by many accounts the way of O'Sensei. What's his name now?

Cassia Rose Heatley wrote: My apologies, that was not meant directly to you as an accusation, just a general observation re the fitness aspect being brought up as a concern. .

No worries. Quite a few simultaneous conversations going on in this thread.

I admittedly got into BJJ because my friends and I were UFC fans. Royce Gracie was in his prime and his BJJ was seemingly invincible against all comers (karateka, boxer, wrestlers, etc.). We watched demos by various MA groups at my university. We also enjoyed the demos by the Judo and Iaido grups but BJJ won us over. I was already taking a class in Taijiquan (Alex Dong lineage - same as your school) and my friends teased me about it. Anyway, BJJ turned to be really fun.

I tried Judo later after I moved to another city. I didn't know if there were any good BJJ schools in my then-new city and had heard stories about price gouging, teachers holding back and only teaching the best stuff to Brazilians, etc. I guess we got lucky with our choice of BJJ instructor - he is the same one who taught Roy Dean (the guy in the video, mentioned in the Future of Aikido thread). Judo clubs tended to cost a lot less to attend too. I admittedly never watched a real Judo shiai until I joined the club - it's quite dynamic and fast-moving.

So there's a bit of background behind what my choice would be, personally, if I had to choose between the two again, today. There was a BJJ black belt who used to attend the same Judo club mentioned above, and compete as a representative of that club. His favorite move was a sacrifice throw with an extended leg. One day he brought a couple of his BJJ training buddies with him to Judo class, and they threw everybody, even the sons of the head instructor.

Paolo Valladolid wrote: I guess we got lucky with our choice of BJJ instructor - he is the same one who taught Roy Dean

You trained under Mr. Harris?