Highest Level Martial Arts and Aikido

Gene Martinelli wrote: We have skilled martial artists who can swing that bokken and look exactly like Saito Sensei, without ever understanding what is missing. The sayings (excuses?) will come out in your example. Like "all roads lead to the top of the mountain," yes except the view is different from each side of the road you walk on - let alone each road. "his interpretation is just as valid as yours," good than accept that my "interpretation is valid and every one else's" instead of meaning "my interpretation is right and yours is well so-so -cause it isn't my interpretation." The latter is more than likely what you'll hear. This one though: "Saito's swing was evolving his whole life and this swing done by X is just part of the "evolution" of bokken swinging." I guess if you can see that Saito's swing evolved then don't you want to know how Saito was able to make his swing evolve? Because "just practice" is just that "just practice." So as you may have guessed to me the answer to your last question: Do you think it is true that ultimately X will arrive at the same bokken-swinging skills that Saito has/had by just practicing continuously? No.

Exactly. It's obvious when common sense and a little thought are applied. Yet, another way to trivialize what you just said would be that you see things too "black and white", Gene, if you're going to make a pronouncement like that which disagrees with some closely-held beliefs of a few others.

So how about if you do at least *some* things in your swinging like Saito does? How about if you grip loosely except for the finished down-swing? How about if you "don't rock back and forth"? How about if you "stop the bokken exactly in a horizontal position", etc.? What I'm getting at is that there are characteristics of bokken swinging which are indeed simple "variations". However, the loss of the few "essential" requirements, is not the same thing as a "variation". If someone leaves out or does incorrectly one of the *essential* components of bokken swinging that Saito (in our example) does, then the idea of "all roads lead to the top of the mountain", "just practice", etc., becomes an obvious fallacy... and the results are NOT just going to happen by divine providence.

If you don't know how to swing your bokken, for example, *really* using the tanden correctly, then 1,000 strokes a day is "wrong practice" in terms of the legitimate Aikido that Saito does/did, even though it will make you very strong, give you *some* ki (beyond your control, though), and enable you to add power to some of your Aikido techniques. In a "black and white" way, I'm pointing out that even if there is some small bit of vagueness about exactly where that line is, there is certainly a cut-off line between Aikido, Aikido-variations, and not-Aikido. "Highest level" Aikido is not on the same path as "not-Aikido", if you'll pardon the "black and white" statement.

Incidentally, I don't know if it's just that a lot of people play the guitar semi-seriously/seriously, but it's amazing how many good guitar players are in Taiji, Aikido, etc.

Mike

Mike Sigman wrote: Exactly. It's obvious when common sense and a little thought are applied. Yet, another way to trivialize what you just said would be that you see things too "black and white", Gene, if you're going to make a pronouncement like that which disagrees with some closely-held beliefs of a few others. Yes Mike, however my pronouncement disagrees with some and by others it is their sentiment, too. And I am also interested in your little gathering idea on a different thread -I'll PM. Incidentally, I don't know if it's just that a lot of people play the guitar semi-seriously/seriously, but it's amazing how many good guitar players are in Taiji, Aikido, etc. Mike

I have a couple of observations/opinions (not sure they fit into theories) regarding the number of guitarists/musicians and also the number of visual artists and dancers. All three music, art, and dance have to, like martial arts, blend visual learning with kinesthetic learning and therefore have already been developing &/or are comfortable in learning in a martial arts environment. NAGE and UKE show the technique in motion, we watch and then we try to do. Same is true for musicians, artists to a degree-they take something and put to a medium or the "spirit" of something and put it to a medium, and dancers learn dance in exactly the same way as martial arts learn martial arts. But, more importantly are those who create in their other arts. Because the void that the music I write seems to come from and flow through me seems the same as that which flows through you in Aikido, Taiji, etc. -again this is just my own view, and who knows if I'm looking at the majestic panoramic view from along the mountain path I'm walking or if I'm looking at the mountain. Or perhaps I'm staring down as I walk at the dirt and my feet on the path thinking same up here as down there.
Gene

Gene Martinelli wrote: I have a couple of observations/opinions (not sure they fit into theories) regarding the number of guitarists/musicians and also the number of visual artists and dancers. All three music, art, and dance have to, like martial arts, blend visual learning with kinesthetic learning and therefore have already been developing &/or are comfortable in learning in a martial arts environment. NAGE and UKE show the technique in motion, we watch and then we try to do. Same is true for musicians, artists to a degree-they take something and put to a medium or the "spirit" of something and put it to a medium, and dancers learn dance in exactly the same way as martial arts learn martial arts. But, more importantly are those who create in their other arts. Because the void that the music I write seems to come from and flow through me seems the same as that which flows through you in Aikido, Taiji, etc. -again this is just my own view, and who knows if I'm looking at the majestic panoramic view from along the mountain path I'm walking or if I'm looking at the mountain. Or perhaps I'm staring down as I walk at the dirt and my feet on the path thinking same up here as down there.

Well, I take your meaning, but the essence, in my opinion, is the "different way of moving", involving several interrelated things, that I see as paramount... and it's the heart of that movement combined with another person that I see as the core "Aiki". In other words, I agree with what you're saying, but I'm interjecting something else in front of the line.

I played guitar for many years, including classical guitar, although I haven't done much for a number of years. But that's why it catches my attention about the number of guitar players who use guitar-playing as an analogy when talking about Aikido, Taiji, etc.

FWIW

Mike

Kevin Leavitt wrote: interesting question Mike. Reminds me of baking a cake. A world re-knowned/master cake baker can spend years on refining baking the perfect cake. A novice, in theory, can follow the same receipe, replicate the same exact conditions, and bake that same perfect cake. So what separates the master from the novice? I think there is much more to mastery than replicating a single cake or perfecting a sword kata. It is the ability and experience to take a brand new set of conditions and create/resolve the situation in the manner you want.

Actually, Kevin, I would change your cake analogy to say the novice either leaving out an ingredient (like the tsp of baking soda) or changing the amounts of the ingredients. You still wind up with a cake, something that would pass muster at a bake sale, but there's something very different about the ingredients, even though the cake would provide sustenance as done by the novice.

FWIW

Mike

Good point. Also, cakes are typically much easier to replicate than correct martial technique! Also, in theory alot less to lose from making a bad cake than having bad marital technique hence why we should strive to constantly improve in budo!

Kevin Leavitt wrote: alot less to lose from making a bad cake than having bad marital technique hence why we should strive to constantly improve in budo!

Or in bedo.

Mike Sigman wrote: So, some questions are: .... are there any results someone can expect from suburi swinging and will X achieve those results just swinging the bokken in a way that looks like Saito's swing?

Would it be reasonable to assume that our hypothetical master swordsman isn't just swinging his bokken, he's cutting with it instead? It's not just a physical action as there's also an intention associated with it. For the swordsman the act is about downing a foe, not about moving a stick, and this is an element this will be missing from X's practise of swinging the bokken.

(Baking a cake, on the other hand is about, well, baking a cake. Bake a given receipe a thousand times and I don't think anyone would argue that you wouldn't be really good at baking that cake).

So does it make a difference to the example if X starts off knowing what all the bokken swinging is about? If X knows what he's trying to achieve, what the practise is about, and knows what success looks like - the physical appearance of Saito's swing - I'd say the practise isn't going to be necessarily empty.

Could I have some clarification here on something as I think my reading comprehension is going downhill again. Several posts seem to indicate that you'd never be able to bake a bokken properly unless you're taught?

I'd disagree with this in that, while it might take an exceptional student, you can teach yourself without the hands-on guidance of a teacher. I'd just expect it to take longer and that initially wrong alleyways would be followed. However it would depend more on how they were teaching themselves and more importantly, what aims and thus self-tests they could use during their training.

I agree, most people picking up Mrs Beeton's guide to sword cuts would make a complete hash, but I would presume someone competent could make a reasonable stab at it.

(Then again, I'm still a skeptic when it comes to spirit and ki power, in spite of Mikes illuminating posts)

What you said... only not nearly so clearly!

Ian Thake wrote: Would it be reasonable to assume that our hypothetical master swordsman isn't just swinging his bokken, he's cutting with it instead? It's not just a physical action as there's also an intention associated with it. For the swordsman the act is about downing a foe, not about moving a stick, and this is an element this will be missing from X's practise of swinging the bokken. (snip) So does it make a difference to the example if X starts off knowing what all the bokken swinging is about? If X knows what he's trying to achieve, what the practise is about, and knows what success looks like - the physical appearance of Saito's swing - I'd say the practise isn't going to be necessarily empty.

Sure... *both* people swinging the bokken are thinking of cutting with a sword. The problem is that "X" only knows of and can think of only one way to add power to the cut... let's say with strong arms and a lean. On the other hand Saito is also thinking about the sword as cutting on the downstroke, but he's also aware of powering the upstroke, clever ways to get power to the downstroke, weight and pressure shifts inside that don't show up in any outward "rocking" motion, breathing in such a way that he is building his "ki" while at the same time not using any tension, and so on. If you'll watch Saito and some of the others, various of their swings are not correct martially (the stroke goes too far back), but for the type of ki exercise that involves "contraction and expansion", they're just fine.

BUT.... if you watch X and you watch Saito and you don't have any particular experience with using the bokken for "tanden" training, you won't see the difference. My point was along the lines that Saito will build up his ki and his tanden strength while "X" will essentially build up his shoulders, arms, etc., not to mention his aerobic strength and *some* of what is called ki (some ki always develops as strength develops). With all this training, X will imbue ALL of his motions and techniques in the rest of his Aikido with arm and shoulder; Saito (whose name I'm using only as an example) will not only build his powers, but he will also train his body to move in a way that is not arms and shoulders.

Trust me, you don't want to point out to "X" that he might be doing the bokken-swinging wrong. If he is honestly on the Way of Aikido, he'll take a look at it... if he's worried about his status and position in the "community", he'll get a bit defensive.

Regards,

Mike

Ian Hurst wrote: Could I have some clarification here on something as I think my reading comprehension is going downhill again. Several posts seem to indicate that you'd never be able to bake a bokken properly unless you're taught? (snip) I agree, most people picking up Mrs Beeton's guide to sword cuts would make a complete hash, but I would presume someone competent could make a reasonable stab at it.

How on earth can you make a hash when you've set out to bake a cake, Ian??

(Then again, I'm still a skeptic when it comes to spirit and ki power, in spite of Mikes illuminating posts)

Well, pick some single point that you think might clear it up (or give a leg up) and, if it's not too complicated, I'll try and lay it out so that it sounds less like esoterica and more within the real world.

Mike

OK Mike, if I understand you now, then to try and paraphrase/grossly oversimplify your argument:

"Swinging a bokken - like pretty much everything else in aikido - has a bunch of subtleties that will be lost on the casual observer. Nobody is going to understand those subtleties just by watching a video and practising a lot. They are, however, still going to be able to give someone an almighty whack with the bokken at the end of the practise."

So it's not that Trainee Swordsman X is failing to improve because he's copying the move without some esoteric understanding, he's simply copying the move badly?

Which doesn't seem too controversial in itself...?

HIya Mike, all I can say is don't try my shortbreads... but on to the point in question concerning ki use. [caveat, fully happy to realise I've just been misreading you and others thoughts]

From what I understand your view of harnessing this type of energy and breathing is relatively easy assuming both an open mind and a willingness to learn without preconceptions on the side of the student and a teacher who knows what they're doing. You have mentioned how this can invigorate and enhance the power of even mediocre specimens (such as myself) beyond what can be described through purely physical ways.

However, if this is the case, why has it never gained more ground in fields other than the internal arts. Ignoring obvious areas such as armed forces (who, going off their LSD trials, will experiment with anything), why not in athletics, sports in general? I suppose I'm in the "sounds too good to be true camp" if that makes sense.

Ian Thake wrote: OK Mike, if I understand you now, then to try and paraphrase/grossly oversimplify your argument: "Swinging a bokken - like pretty much everything else in aikido - has a bunch of subtleties that will be lost on the casual observer. Nobody is going to understand those subtleties just by watching a video and practising a lot. They are, however, still going to be able to give someone an almighty whack with the bokken at the end of the practise." So it's not that Trainee Swordsman X is failing to improve because he's copying the move without some esoteric understanding, he's simply copying the move badly? Which doesn't seem too controversial in itself...?

Roughly speaking, you've got it, but the problem is that although it is subtle in the sense of being able to see it, it is far from subtle in doing it and training it. Take for instance someone who knows how to use their body more or less correctly in applying a nikkyo... it's "subtle" (an outsider can't see the difference), but the effects are not subtle at all.

I once heard a story about Chen Fa Ke taking on a "bandit" who had a spear... Fa Ke had a staff. At the moment of encounter, Fa Ke did some sort of diverting move to the bandit's spear and then poked a hole completely through the chest of the bandit with his staff. When I heard that story, I discounted it as perhaps being an exaggeration. When I met Chen Fa Ke's grandson, I brought up that story and asked how he thought his grandfather moved when he did that hit. He showed me and it took me 2 years to figure out what he showed me. It was subtle, but it was a way of adding tremendous power, once you train it. Yet, if I had seen it earlier in my life it would have meant nothing to me.

My point is that these "subtleties" we're talking about in the bokken training are quite critical to the kokyu power in Aikido-proper. When someone says "Aikido doesn't use strength and you should relax", what that really means is that you should not use normal strength, but you should train the kokyu strength as high as you can and you can only learn kokyu strength by (a.) having someone show you how to train it and (b.) by relaxing and relinquishing all the old "normal" strength. Subtle to see, not subtle to actually do.

Regards,

Mike

Ian Hurst wrote: You have mentioned how this can invigorate and enhance the power of even mediocre specimens (such as myself) beyond what can be described through purely physical ways. However, if this is the case, why has it never gained more ground in fields other than the internal arts. Ignoring obvious areas such as armed forces (who, going off their LSD trials, will experiment with anything), why not in athletics, sports in general? I suppose I'm in the "sounds too good to be true camp" if that makes sense.

Hi Ian:

Well, let me re-phrase your question for you. What you really mean to ask is why this form of strength is not found in the armed forces, sports, etc., of the US, the UK, Europe, etc. In varying degrees, you'll find some aspects of this training in some Asian armies, sports, daily-life, etc.... but particularly in select parts of the Chinese army, Chinese sports training, and Chinese daily life. Think for instance of all the people who doing qigongs, Taiji, etc., in China. The trick is to find someone who really knows how to do these things and who will train you. At the moment, the West is just getting started (and there is a LOT of bullshit out there, too, so be careful).

Think of Aikido... it's in there. There was a good interview of Tohei in Aikido Journal in which Tohei mentions demonstrating that people couldn't lift him... O-Sensei was watching and was encouraging people because he seemed to be a bit miffed that Tohei had somehow learned some of these skills from somewhere else. In other words, someone having taught this sort of closely-held stuff to Tohei was something of an irritant to Ueshiba. So if there was a reluctance on O-Sensei's part for Tohei to have this sort of knowledge, what do you think O-Sensei's reaction would have been if Tohei, Abe, etc., had said, "Hey... let's teach this to the westerners... I'm sure they'd like it!"

Another problem is that it's not that easy to just do. I can show someone how to do some things, but the academic knowledge is not the same as working it so much that it becomes your instinctive way of movement (which is why is just blow off these comments of "sometimes I do it rigth, sometimes I don't). It takes work. There are gradations of skill. Etc. It's difficult to make the transition and a lot of people simply stop trying once they begin to comprehend how much of a change is involved. Like the bokken swinger "X", they start thinking "so what if it helps me swing the bokken a little stronger... it's not enough more power for me to devote all this time", and yada yada yada. They miss the importance because they haven't taken the time to really understand it.

Mike

it's not enough more power for me to devote all this time,

I think the point is that this sort of power may not be as necessary when you are young and vigorous, but as you age, it becomes more and more necessary if you plan on holding your own with the young guns. I hear Shioda Sensei really started implementing the idea of 'soft' kokyu ryoku sometime in his 40s...I'm 44 as of yesterday, and I need a different way to do things. The 20 something brown and black belts can be a hand full without it.
Best,
Ron

Happy Birthday Ron.

I met a teacher when I was 19 years old that made a huge impression on me with his overwhelming power coming from what felt like a soft but very heavy pillow sometimes and a sharp penetrating point at other times. He was somewhere in his late 60's or so and helped me to understand that I wanted to find the ability to do this as soon as possible so I had a long time to practice what really works when you get old before I got old and needed it. I've been searching for it every since... and I passed my 58th birthday six months ago. You have time to find it.

Best regards,

Ron Tisdale wrote: I think the point is that this sort of power may not be as necessary when you are young and vigorous, but as you age, it becomes more and more necessary if you plan on holding your own with the young guns. I hear Shioda Sensei really started implementing the idea of 'soft' kokyu ryoku sometime in his 40s...I'm 44 as of yesterday, and I need a different way to do things. The 20 something brown and black belts can be a hand full without it.

Actually, the level of this power can be unusually high (and I don't claim to be able to demonstrate it at that high of a level, either... not by a long shot) and even "young" people have been known to demonstrate a pretty high level. I remember one of my teachers mentioning one of his relatives in the 1800's was known to use a spear that weighed 24 pounds.... when he told me the story he said something like, "Of course, you can only use a spear of this weight if your qi is very strong; even normal very strong people cannot manipulate a spear of this weight".

Of course, these are just stories, but the idea of someone gaining this form of strength to compensate for age is very common... both Shioda and Ueshiba said similar things about the usefulness as you get older and it's a common idea in Chinese discussions, too.

There's a reason why you get strong doing these things. One reason, the qi/ki thing I'm not going to get into because it's complex and because .... well, just because.

The other reason is the kokyu part and I'll make a quick stab at telling why that part increases your "power" as you get older. For a very simplistic example, picture Tohei standing on one leg with his partner pushing on Tohei's forearm to show that Tohei is difficult to move (we could just say that Tohei has "root" or "is rooted"). What Tohei has done basically (this is a very simple example; it can get much more complex) is rearrange the way his body is handling forces so that the responsibility for the force goes to his back leg. If he is letting his back leg handle the push, then he only needs enough strength in the rest of the body to transmit that responsibility. With a lot of practice, the "transmitting" portions of your body can be weirdly soft, but that's another story and it also involve the ki/qi I'm avoiding.

So think of it like this, one-legged Tohei kokyu demonstration: If you carry a large stone, it takes a certain amount of effort. If you put the large stone in a wagon and pull it, it takes less effort to move the stone over the same distance. If you automatically establish load-bearing paths through to the sole of your foot as you walk with the stone, you're sort of allowing the leg to bear more of the load, similar to the way the wheels carry the load in a wagon. As I've pointed out a couple of times in this forum, the essence of a lot of "from the middle" stuff is to actually let the lower body do all the work possible.

If Tohei used that same force all the way through his body while absorbing a push slightly and then pushing back, the path through to his rear leg will allow the real leg to do most of the work. So despite appearance of using his arms, Tohei is letting his lower body do almost all the work.

Anyway, I'll stop there because I'm already unhappy with the too-simplistic attempt to convey an idea of how you can be "strong" while you're not using much strength in your upper body. And remember, there's more to it than just this one part.

FWIW

Mike

Chuck Clark wrote: I've been searching for it every since... and I passed my 58th birthday six months ago. You have time to find it.

Hi Chuck:

Out of curiosity, can you explain to me exactly *what* you've been looking for? What you described can be described as focused jin, one-grain qi, jin/kokyu, whatever. The question I'm trying to ask, even though I'm fumbling for words, is sort of along the lines of "there are a number of skills (not a great number, but a few) associated with these powers... what specifically interests you and why?". Poorly phrased, but hopefully you understand what I'm asking.

Regards,

Mike

Mike Sigman wrote: The other reason is the kokyu part and I'll make a quick stab at telling why that part increases your "power" as you get older. For a very simplistic example, picture Tohei standing on one leg with his partner pushing on Tohei's forearm to show that Tohei is difficult to move (we could just say that Tohei has "root" or "is rooted"). What Tohei has done basically (this is a very simple example; it can get much more complex) is rearrange the way his body is handling forces so that the responsibility for the force goes to his back leg. If he is letting his back leg handle the push, then he only needs enough strength in the rest of the body to transmit that responsibility. With a lot of practice, the "transmitting" portions of your body can be weirdly soft, but that's another story and it also involve the ki/qi I'm avoiding. Mike

Excellent representation in words ! Use of words like ki just confuse simplicity.

Mike Sigman wrote: Out of curiosity, can you explain to me exactly *what* you've been looking for? ... what specifically interests you and why?".

I really don't think I can explain "exactly" what I've been looking for all these years... If I could, then I probably would be much better at "doing" it than I am.

What specifically interests me is to continue to practice and grow along lines that my teachers have led me. "Great Faith Tempered With Great Doubt..." along with a good practice system that includes a lot of testing each other to be sure we're really doing what we intend and the growing ability to do just one thing at a time. Each "one thing" then combines with another "one thing" and they become just one thing that is very dynamic and yet subtle. Taking the opponent's structure, including the mental aspects, making it very difficult for the opponent to do anything that is not predictable and having an ambush waiting. Adding just that four ounces of my force into the opponent's forces along with gravity so that they do not have any useful power to put in my direction but instead spend theirs and my appropriate bit in their own collapse of structure and will. Taking in information while creating techniques through intuitive, creative decision making and actualizing this intent in the most simple and efficient way while doing as little harm as possible is what interests me.

A lot of words that do not come close to what really interests me in this practice. And as for "Why"?... the only answer that makes sense to me is... because that's part of who I am.

I appreciate your interest and share the passion for the search.

Best regards,

Chuck Clark wrote: I really don't think I can explain "exactly" what I've been looking for all these years... If I could, then I probably would be much better at "doing" it than I am.

Fair enough. I thought you were talking about the various skills associated with the physical expressions of ki and kokyu and I was wondering which ones interested you and why.

Regards,

Mike

Ron Tisdale wrote: I think the point is that this sort of power may not be as necessary when you are young and vigorous, but as you age, it becomes more and more necessary if you plan on holding your own with the young guns. I hear Shioda Sensei really started implementing the idea of 'soft' kokyu ryoku sometime in his 40s...I'm 44 as of yesterday, and I need a different way to do things. The 20 something brown and black belts can be a hand full without it. Best, Ron

Happy Birthday, belatedly...

Be strong, not weak!!!!

Be happy, Ron!!!

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: Be strong, not weak!!!!

Hmmmmmm.... isn't that like saying "Be rich, not poor!!!!!"

Mike