MMA vs. Traditional Arts

Originally posted by LOEP It's an art rich in philosophy and theory. It's an art capable of great power and potential. It's an art of subtle depths and broad reach. The bottom line is that it ain't about effectiveness. Study budo for a long time and you'll learn a lot about personal combat, but you'll also learn a lot of other stuff that may not interest the individual looking solely for that ever-elusive and legendary 'street-effective' martial art. Chuck

KAMI : Ai Sensei!
It's always a pleasure to read your posts. I couldn't agree more with you.
Best

are better than mine. But I do agree Budo can include self defence but selfdefence rarely includes Budo. That said I think the reality guys learn at a more rapid rate than than folks in Karate or Aikido. Primarily because the sport oriented styles provide a more freeform enviroment (albeit with some rules) to practice. I intentionally left judo out because though it is a semi tradional art it's practice style in most sport dojos (the ones that I've rolled in) is the same. Going all out even with some limitations is vastly differant than practicing with a partner...no matter how good he/she is. The intensity is differant when the other person it really fighting you and Aikido though lethal if taken to the extream cannot be practiced at that level. A disctiption of Kukishin Ryu stickfighting I once read said that you can only practice a few techniques and only for a short time before the human body begins to perform worse and worse. This also applies to Aikido. By the time you progress to a level wherein you can compete with the boys of the Octogon you aren't a Boy and have likely outgrown such things.
One last thing and then I'll end this. The Aikidoist who competed in the UFC did so in the days before any major rules... just No eyes pokes and no fishhooking. And having seen the match it was bad...real bad he didn't do us proud. Yes UFC is entertainment and there will be one on TV this Friday Sept 28. Watch it (on pay per view) if you want to seen what it has become...it is more of a game now than it used to be...then again the guys who play that game are a lot more skilled now than they used to be.

Rob Trim ...Thank you. Finally someone spoke of the combat effectiveness of aikido. I would also like to thank you for validating my hidden question:

"Is it okay to question the combat effectiveness of an art?"

It seems that aikidoka sometimes get caught up in the peace-love-harmony aspect of the art and ignore the self preservation aspect of the martial arts. I DON'T think aikido is unique in this aspect. Most of the martial arts styles I study have a very strong code of conduct and adherance to non-violence.

Most in this forum have stopped well short of saying aikido is a complete system of self-defense, ready for anything any time anywhere. I am glad to see you believe in the combat effectiveness of the art as I do.

Respectfully,

Scott In Kansas

Originally posted by Scott_in_Kansas Rob Trim ...Thank you. Finally someone spoke of the combat effectiveness of aikido. I am glad to see you believe in the combat effectiveness of the art as I do.

I'm with you guys there Scott.
For a while I was worried as to whether the Aikido experienced by most on Aikiweb had become something other than a way of defending oneself and more of perpetual forms practice without any type of real resistance. Thanks guys, I don't feel so alone anymore.

If we lose the Martial that exists as part of the Art. Then all we're doing is Art. Which is not what I think Aikido was intended to be (in my very very humble opinion of course).

Oh and Tony you're right about the "Traditional" thing I said earlier in this thread. I was not sure about that (hence the question marks).

Domo Arigato.
L.C.

Thanks L.C.! I applaud your opinion. As far as the discussion on what is a traditional art, here is my opinion:

I consider the traditional arts to be karate, jujitsu, kung fu, aikido, jujitsu (stand up variety), judo, etc. I even consider Ed Parker's Kenpo a traditional art. They are arts which are taught in a dojo, have a code of conduct, uniforms. Proficiency is attained through years of training, perfection of technique and some physical conditioning.

I consider MMA to be things like combining boxing and wrestling and a few submissions. Heavy emphasis is placed on physical conditioning. Very little emphasis seems to be placed on perfection of technique (especially striking technique).

I consider Frank Shamrock to be the poster child for MMA. While I think he is a phenomenal athlete and competitor, I was amazed to find the at the time he won in the UFC, he had only been doing MMA for 4-5 years!!!! I surely thought a seasoned traditional artist could do better.

Respectfully,

Scott in Kansas

While Frank Shamrock was only practicing MMA for 5 years when he won the UFC that's five years of training every day. This is the same amount of time that a 3 day a week person would put in in 12 years. Which I'm sure you would admit is a reasonable amount of time. It is conditioning that allows for this accelerated learning pace for otherwise you wouldn't be able to last through the technical training. Many of these fighters/athletes come into the sport with a background in another sport. Maurice Smith is/was a Pro Kickboxer, Randy Coture was an Olympic wrestler, Chuck Liddle was a Kempo guy (N.A. Champ) Tito Ortiz was a State wrestling champ in California. Under your way of thinking the the wrestling would easilly be considered traditional martial artist. And the guys who train in Japan like Ricco Rodriguez train in tradional Dojos with all the trappings that go with it. Do you really consider kickboxers to have poor striking technique? It alway surprises me when I hear people from a non combative art when the comment on a combative one. there is a big differance between 3 days a week and 7. And I can tell you from experience that that the technique that these guys have far and away exceeds a Blackbelt level. What everyone fails to take into account is the fact that the other guy isn't a willing partner. And that one fact if the two are evenly matched in skill will make for a sloppy/boring fight.

Scott_in_Kansas:
Most in this forum have stopped well short of saying aikido is a complete system of self-defense, ready for anything any time anywhere.

Chris:
I'm not sure people here are afraid to say that aikido is a system of defense. It's just that most people here are very passionate in making sure that it's clear that's not all it is.

Plus, no good ever came of being too cocky!

Gotta learn to do the quote thing.

Scott_in_Kansas: Gotta learn to do the quote thing.

Easy.... insert the quote between two 'tags' placed in square brackets. Tags are interpreted on run-time and are not shown directly in the text, however they influence the text written between the start-tag and the end-tag. Below an example shown with round brackets instead of the square brackets used in tags:

(QUOTE) (B)Scott_in_Kansas:
Gotta learn to do the quote thing. (/B) (/QUOTE)

The (QUOTE) tag starts a quote - and it is ended by the (/QUOTE) tag. The (B) and (/B) tags respectively turns on and off bold-mode. Similar you can use (I) and (/I) around text that should be written in italic mode.

Just remember to use square brackets instead of the round brackets in the example. (I couldn't show it the right way here, cause then it would be interpreted by the system as another quote - you see ???

Have fun!

Originally posted by Tony Peters While Frank Shamrock was only practicing MMA for 5 years when he won the UFC that's five years of training every day. This is the same amount of time that a 3 day a week person would put in in 12 years.

That's one of the facts that diminishes the absoloute relevance of these kind of debates. I don't imagine there's many people on the forum who can train for long hours every day. There are aikidoka who have done and continue to do so.
I think people are on this forum are realistic about what they can achieve with the amount of time they can afford to train each day. It'd be a bit childish sounding to start talking about the achievements of whatever masters/teachers of the art one has encountered or even just read about to validate the martial potential of aikido, and then be forced to concede that you're not at that standard yourself, "but they can really kick ass..."
Aikido is powerful as a martial art, but that's not emphasised in training in many places. Like many I have faith in Aikido as a martial art, but I have to be realistic about Andrew as a martial artist.

Let me just add that I am sick to the bone of people throwing themselves instead of taking ukemi. Bit of a tangent I know, but it's a pet peeve that's at me right now.

andrew

Originally posted by andrew Let me just add that I am sick to the bone of people throwing themselves instead of taking ukemi. Bit of a tangent I know, but it's a pet peeve that's at me right now. andrew

This is part of the reason the Aikido isn't effective as a MA. It's not the techniques, its the manner in which they are practiced. Still some techniques cause instand compliance on me whereas other folks can resist so the Ukemi/falling arguement is relative to the person you are working with. That is differant than fighting though because as I said a partner no matter good in his/her resistance isn't trying to hurt/throw you.

Originally posted by Tony Peters Snipped!

Tony, you just went and said something I'd been thinking about saying.

I think people who have never been exposed to elite athletes don't realize just how much better they really are. I bike semi-regularly. I go anywhere from 1-1/2 to 2 hours on my mountain bike. When I'm on pavement I average around 12 to 13 mph, faster if I push it. There are people who could run that route at those speeds. I'd bet that most people here couldn't run an 8:00 minute mile. People do it in less than 4:00 minutes which is likely a faster pace than most people could sprint 100 yards.

I've played a lot of basketball. I'm respectable but the couple of times I've played against major college or NBA level folks (scrubs), they were faster, taller, jumped higher, shot better and passed better. It's almost impossible to even describe how much better they were.

I have no doubt that it works exactly the same way in the NHB realm.

a few years back I was living in Guam and training Aikido full time and parttime in Judo. There was a guy there named John Calvo who at present is a student and training partner of Enson Inoue. At that time he was a hot Amature MMA fighter who used Judo as his ground practice. He would go on his back and working at roughly 50% take on all of us going at 100% granted he had 30 lbs (at that time I was about 210 right now I'm closer to 175) on me but he never left his back. I was "Handled" by him and a very nice manner but handled none the less. A while after that experience I watched him fight Dan "the Beast" Severn (this was at a time when Dan was still consideed to be at or near the top of his game). I noticed how very much like me poor John looked like enroute to his first loss. Dan was fighting at somewhere near 70% and John was going flat out at about 125% At that very moment I realized exactly where in the grand scheme of things my abilities were rated. Now John has gone on to find a true MMA teacher and has vastly improved his abilities but I will always think back on that night and know that no matter how much I train or how good I think I am I'm not a professional and I don't take my training with that purpose in mind. MMA praticianers are very, very good at what they do. Though it is out of the scheme of Aikido attending a seminar with one is by no means a waste of time money. Beware though you will be more tired than you could possibly imagine. Then again My first few Judo classes last August (after 2 years off) I felt as if I'd been beaten (mostly by a 16 year old girl). And I know I'm in good shape I surf 4-5 times a week.

Scott_in_Kansas:
Most in this forum have stopped well short of saying aikido is a complete system of self-defense, ready for anything any time anywhere.

I don't think any MA/MMA/Budo...whatever! could claim that Scott I've been MA training for 7 years, had to defend myself twice on the street and can definitely see the holes in my technique. My point is that style - and even technique - is not really relevant in an effort to train yourself for self defence. More important is mindset, effort, intensity and most importantly TIME!

Tony Peters:
The intensity is differant when the other person it really fighting you and Aikido though lethal if taken to the extreme cannot be practiced at that level.

I disagree. Travel to ten different Aikido dojos - you will find everything from 'really soft' to 'OUCH! I think my spine just broke...' in terms of levels of intensity.

That said I think the reality guys learn at a more rapid rate than than folks in Karate or Aikido

No I don't thinks so, at least not according to 'Reality' guys I've met and trained with. To have a decent workable grasp of the knowledge and how to apply it takes just as long. It's more difficult to 'land a punch' or perform a good 'takedown' than most people appreciate. Reality guys train just as long and just as hard as 'we' do to get good

Rob.

Originally posted by RobTrim Tony Peters: The intensity is differant when the other person it really fighting you and Aikido though lethal if taken to the extreme cannot be practiced at that level. I disagree. Travel to ten different Aikido dojos - you will find everything from 'really soft' to 'OUCH! I think my spine just broke...' in terms of levels of intensity. That said I think the reality guys learn at a more rapid rate than than folks in Karate or Aikido No I don't thinks so, at least not according to 'Reality' guys I've met and trained with. To have a decent workable grasp of the knowledge and how to apply it takes just as long. It's more difficult to 'land a punch' or perform a good 'takedown' than most people appreciate. Reality guys train just as long and just as hard as 'we' do to get good Rob.

I have been to a lot more than ten Aikido Dojos in more than 5 countries (including Japan) It's not the same.
Yes it is more difficult to apply good technique than most people realize. especially against a partner who is fighting back. Aikido dosn't teach Henka waza at a lower level even Judo does. This is a big difference. As you said Reality guys do put in the same hours as we traditional folks do it's just that they do their hours in fewer calander days.