SD Question - Pizza Parlor Attack

BTW: Paul; please don't think I'm slamming you for your post, I'm sorry if it looked that way. Thank you for your support, truly. I know you didn't make a deliberate shot at Americans; you were quite clear on that. It's just that this topic is starting to drift into some seriously risky emotional range and assumptions start flying around - from experience on this board once that happens things can fall apart rather quick.
I'm just trying to forestall blowups and keep things civil. Most likely I overreacted myself but I was distracted.

Ron, I agree with you completely and your opinion is always respected.

I was just pointing out the obvious that in this particular case, shooting the attacker would have likely resulted in more carnage than not shooting them. Also, under the circumstances, I doubt the victim would have had any opportunity to effectively defend himself with a firearm unless pardon the pun "he jumped the gun" before the real attack occured.

Ron Tisdale wrote: I can't say for 'civilized', but I do know that I want any society that I live in to allow me the right of self-defense. Personally, I don't like guns, so it is doubfull that I would ever carry one, but I would certainly feel it appropriate to use deadly force in the situation described. The victim was lucky...he could just as well have been killed or permanantly injured. And I personally will not leave it up to the good graces of my attacker to determine how much damage they will do to my prostrate body. Ron (but hey, Canadians and others are welcome to disagree)

John Wayne was an actor, Rambo was a character, and the Marquis of Queensbury is dead.

That would make a good signature!

RT

My dad always seems to tell me stories about his Hapkido/Judo instructor... So, I remember him telling me about his instructor disarming two men with pistols (I think they were training with the Police Department) before they even knew what hit them. It is possible, but keep in mind he was a master of Judo and Hapkido and a few other Korean arts.

That is the dilemma with weapons, is that they can be used against you if someone is a superior strategist and fighter. In very close situations, guns are a bad idea. If I was being shot at from 50 feet away, well, then a gun is a great thing to have.

Which goes back to the saying that the best weapon is the mind. All the rest are merely extensions of that simple fact.

LC

On the subject of a firearm in this scenario... I think that an attempt to access a firearm in a tight quarters situation like that might very well have ended up as a weapons retention issue. By the time the victim had recognized that the big guy was a serious threat it was too late to safely access a weapon. After taking that first hit, I doubt he could have accessed a firearm and successfully used it; that hit took the life out of that fellow. Had he tried to reach for a weapon with the assailant at that range it would have been very possible for the assailant to engage him and struggle for the weapon.

In any kind of close quarters scenario, good empty hand skills are the bottom line. A firearm is great but at close range it can often turn into a struggle for the weapon. Unless one has specifically trained for close quarters deployment of a firearm, you run the risk of having the assailant neutralize the weapon and potentially shoot you with it. Frankly at that range, a knife in the proper carry rig would be more effective in terms of deployment. However you run into all sort of problems in terms of use of force as there is a distinct bias against edged weapons in this country. Use of a knife is associated with low class hoodlums. A jury that would accept a gun used for self defense might very well rule against a knife wielding defender...

But at that range and in close quarters in terms of pure effectiveness I'd rather have a blade.

George S. Ledyard wrote: On the subject of a firearm in this scenario... I think that an attempt to access a firearm in a tight quarters situation like that might very well have ended up as a weapons retention issue. By the time the victim had recognized that the big guy was a serious threat it was too late to safely access a weapon. After taking that first hit, I doubt he could have accessed a firearm and successfully used it; that hit took the life out of that fellow. Had he tried to reach for a weapon with the assailant at that range it would have been very possible for the assailant to engage him and struggle for the weapon. In any kind of close quarters scenario, good empty hand skills are the bottom line. A firearm is great but at close range it can often turn into a struggle for the weapon. Unless one has specifically trained for close quarters deployment of a firearm, you run the risk of having the assailant neutralize the weapon and potentially shoot you with it. Frankly at that range, a knife in the proper carry rig would be more effective in terms of deployment. However you run into all sort of problems in terms of use of force as there is a distinct bias against edged weapons in this country. Use of a knife is associated with low class hoodlums. A jury that would accept a gun used for self defense might very well rule against a knife wielding defender... But at that range and in close quarters in terms of pure effectiveness I'd rather have a blade.

I concur; especially with the opening and closing paragraphs.
In the shown case; the victim would of course have been just as helpless with a knife as with a sidearm but all in all at point-blank range I'll trust a contact weapon over a ranged weapon any day. Not that I like them, far from it but they're far more tactically sound, IMO.

James: Yes, it was a silly challenge - a bit of blather without much point other than bluster. I told you I do not accept challenges. I also told you that if you want to meet face to face to discuss the differences in our opinion, to please contact me offlist - I thought I would repeat that since you did not appear to have seen it the first time. I've been teaching unarmed/close quarters work for quite a while so if you wish to compare opinions/skills; I am at your service. Hopefully, we will both learn something from the event.

I have never liked bullies. It is clear that the woman and her boyfriend are bullies.

IMO, she was in the wrong and knew it. That is why she reacted so violently to the passive aggressive comments. After that...I think she and her boyfriend should have been too busy trying to dig the cell phone out of her forehead to fight.

It may seem harsh but no more harsh than what happened to the victim...who in my opinion wasn't completely in the right either. I think he should have nicely and respectfully asked her to wait her turn.

Shane

Well, I really wish I could get that video to work. Network something or other... I can't offer any tactical analysis of the situation in question, but having been the smaller opponent in every encounter in my life I do have a couple of points to make from the description:

#1. From the sound of it, if you're this Scarpino fellow, you are, in fact, about to get your ass kicked because there's no way you can take this Big Guy.

#2. Later, it's going to be the rest of your life and you still want to feel good about what happened.

That means, IMHO, when doom is impending, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by giving a good account of yourself. So pick your shots deliberately and make them early. Try to get some people in between you and if you do go down, try to drag as many people with you as possible. You'll need them to hopefully take some shots that were intended for you. (That'll teach them to just bystand.)

Keep attacking! If you can make it through the first 20 seconds, you might be winning. Even if you're losing, the longer you can stay in it, the more likely it is that the cavalry will arrive in time.

Now, I know there's a whole world of things that can happen with the girlfriend, the crowd, whatever, but in all likelihood you're still going to take that ass kicking. All you can do is take every chance you can and hope it looks good on the news, because these days, it's probably going to be on the news.

Okay- I just got the video to work and the only thing I can say, if you had to bet your life on one technique- a really hard ridge hand to the temple as a pre-emptive strike. Once that first punch got landed, the fight was over, and from his size I'm betting that guy who got his ass kicked can take one better than I can.

It's still a very long shot, but I saw it correctly executed in the first year of the UFC against a gi-freakin-normous mountain man. Nobody could believe it, but it dropped the guy like a brick

He lived, by the way.

Okay, since we're going down this road...

I'd have knocked the fat prick the hell out. See, I know I can do that, because I'm a 300 lb guy, who's over 6'2" tall, and I've trained a while. More importantly, I used to do just that for fun, and I know how to do that. Then, I'd have knocked his ugly girlfriend/wife out too. Then I'd have looked around to see if there was any more of them around, and I'd have knocked them the hell out, too. In fact, I'd have knocked the idiot that got this beating out, for causing me to waste my energy knocking all these other people out, and then I'd have turned my attention on the store manager for not knocking someone out his damned self.

Now, I recognize that not everyone has the ability to knock people out at will because they lack the size and nearly legendary skill that I have, but then again, I doubt that carrying a concealed gun is all that possible for some folks. Some because they've made a choice, some because they feel compelled by religious/spriitual beliefs, but for whatever reason, they don't have the weapon under the hawaiian shirt allatime. Tough. Don't have the size? Too bad. You guys will just have to discuss what's possible in your worlds but as for me and James, well by god, we've got our answers all sewed up. For the record, I support your rights to grow to my size, but if you aikibunny pansies refuse to grow, and you can't be bothered carrying a Glock or an equal/better weapon, well you've made your choices, and you might as well accept that your practice of martial arts is futile.

OR... You could look at this as school, and recognize that when people get worked up, they's hard to calm down, and once someone's made the mental choice that they're gonna fight, chances are that someone's gonna be victimized, and you can't scare someone who's made the decision, they're already scared. Might as well leave ASAP, and use maai, or start attacking the center with whatever you do have. For me (being a legend in my own mind and all), I think when I get around someone like that, I'll try to get the hell out, or see if I can't make them laugh somehow. Fights, all fights, sometimes especially the ones you win, HURT. A LOT.

No disrespect intended James, but as a general statement, guns are simply not available, unless you make a choice to live like someone who doesn't want little kids to jump on them, and is apprehensive all the time. I simply don't want that much of an edge anymore. One of my good friends makes the decision to sit with his back to the door, and when he's in his home state, keeps a weapon all the time. I think he'll be a much happier guy when he's just not as "aware" as all that. As for me, if it's there, and I can pick it up, that'll do as a weapon, if necessary. But I smile, and I say yes, sir and no, sir, and I don't cause people to yell at me, unless I'm damned sure they're in my back pocket already. I'm just too lazy to be a "warrior".

This was intended to be humorous, even if a bit sharp. Sorry.

James Bostwick wrote: Interesting, how if this were a gun forum and someone brought up Aikido as good self-defense, people would be all ears, but bring up guns on a socially correct ideological Aikido site (as evidenced by many of its participants, not the administrator,) and the shit hits the fan. As a sideline, I've always wondered why so many pacifist pansies frequent the art of Aikido. It's a fine martial art; it deserves a better following.

LOL! James you dog you <evil grin>. To begin with, I've spoken to plenty of gun enthusiasts who trounced Aikido as being, to use your own word, a "pansie" art, so maybe try not to make sweeping generalizations like you did (which are blatantly wrong per my experience).
Take it easy.

Mike Collins wrote: Okay, since we're going down this road... This was intended to be humorous, even if a bit sharp. Sorry.

Personally I enjoyed it...

Dave Organ wrote: James: Yes, it was a silly challenge - a bit of blather without much point other than bluster. I told you I do not accept challenges. I also told you that if you want to meet face to face to discuss the differences in our opinion, to please contact me offlist - I thought I would repeat that since you did not appear to have seen it the first time. I've been teaching unarmed/close quarters work for quite a while so if you wish to compare opinions/skills; I am at your service. Hopefully, we will both learn something from the event.

Sure Dave, whether you issue the challenge or I do, it's all the same to me. Next time I'm in Toronto (I've never been)...

George S. Ledyard wrote: On the subject of a firearm in this scenario... I think that an attempt to access a firearm in a tight quarters situation like that might very well have ended up as a weapons retention issue. By the time the victim had recognized that the big guy was a serious threat it was too late to safely access a weapon. After taking that first hit, I doubt he could have accessed a firearm and successfully used it; that hit took the life out of that fellow. Had he tried to reach for a weapon with the assailant at that range it would have been very possible for the assailant to engage him and struggle for the weapon.

A couple of things: I'll reiterate once again, no one's advocating that the victim in this case should have armed himself. He obviously lacks awareness, a machine gun wouldn't have helped him.

Secondly, why is that those who are afraid of their weapon being taken from them imagine some scenario where it's completely ineffective in their hand, but magicly becomes deadly in someone else's? Look, the reason you don't want someone to get your gun is because they could shoot you with it. But it also stands to reason that if it's in my hand and not yours the option becomes mine first to shoot.

I don't buy the notion that the pizza parlor is too close quarter for firearm combat; I've worked in tighter spots, it's not that hard. Just ask your average air marshall if firearms are effective in tighter spaces like cockpits and airplane ailes. If history is any indication, hand to hand combat doesn't always fare so well--flight 93, for example, that had at least one black belt in Judo attempting to storm the cockpit (Jeremy Glick was his name, if I recall correctly, not to be confused with the anti-war activist whose father died in the trade center collapses.)

In any kind of close quarters scenario, good empty hand skills are the bottom line.

Nothing wrong with empty hand combat skills, I've spent a good twenty years training that stuff myself; it certainly has it's place, and is a Hell of a lot of fun to train. But the right tool for the job is the right tool for the job, and the right tool for someone over 300lbs. is a gun--all bravado aside. For me, looking at guns as tools means there's no reason for me personally to avoid them, as if they were automatically going to mean my death or someone else's. Choices and control are still there, just as they are in empty-handed martial arts.

A firearm is great but at close range it can often turn into a struggle for the weapon.

If by often you mean theoretically possible, then I agree. But an intelligent, skilled person will set up the draw so that they have plenty of reaction time to fire on an assailant. Space is only one condition that limits or extends response time.

Unless one has specifically trained for close quarters deployment of a firearm, you run the risk of having the assailant neutralize the weapon and potentially shoot you with it.

No, because see, if we're in close quarters a gun is automatically "ineffective", and therefore, I'll just take it right back. In fact, when the police finally arrive, that's what we'll be doing: tossing the gun back and forth.

However you run into all sort of problems in terms of use of force as there is a distinct bias against edged weapons in this country. Use of a knife is associated with low class hoodlums. A jury that would accept a gun used for self defense might very well rule against a knife wielding defender...

I couldn't agree more. That's also been my experience. Although, ironically, if you're caught with a knife, but haven't brandished it and threatened someone, it goes without saying that you'll have an easier time passing it off as a utility or saying that you didn't know that that type of knife was illegal, etc. than walking on an unlawful possession of concealed firearms charge.

But at that range and in close quarters in terms of pure effectiveness I'd rather have a blade.

I'll take a gun any day. Not only can I draw, aim, and shoot with very little space, but nine plus times out of ten, I can control an attacker without ever firing (see above comment about the Dept. of Justice stat, that's maintained relative consistency for the last thirteen years I've been studying it.) Legally, I'm protected if I pull a gun, not so if I pull a knife, which ties into your previous comment.

Well, if I were to ever mess up enough to have someone beating on me, I hope James is near by, and not the people that insist that they shouldn't get involved. Cowardice is the best means of self defense yet conceived, but it doesn't help anyone else too terribly much.

Mel Barker

Wow....my first defense is never to be a prison guard.
Mir

Mike Collins wrote: Okay, since we're going down this road... I'd have knocked the fat prick the hell out. See, I know I can do that, because I'm a 300 lb guy, who's over 6'2" tall, and I've trained a while. More importantly, I used to do just that for fun, and I know how to do that. Then, I'd have knocked his ugly girlfriend/wife out too. Then I'd have looked around to see if there was any more of them around, and I'd have knocked them the hell out, too. In fact, I'd have knocked the idiot that got this beating out, for causing me to waste my energy knocking all these other people out, and then I'd have turned my attention on the store manager for not knocking someone out his damned self. ... This was intended to be humorous, even if a bit sharp. Sorry.

That was freaking awesome.

James Bostwick wrote: Sure Dave, whether you issue the challenge or I do, it's all the same to me. Next time I'm in Toronto (I've never been)...

This ongoing situation has been an interesting exercise in escalation, hasn't it? Very interesting, taken against the larger context of this thread....

Personally, I think you two should meet at some dojo. You could really have some fun working out some viable SD in a perfectly acceptable setting, then retire to a local watering hole and hammer a few pitchers (in the spirit of colleague-ship and brotherhood, of course).

Congratulations- you are now good friends.

As Aikidokas, we all have a venue for this kind of thing. We train to learn and always make sure nobody gets hurt in the process. As a matter of protocol, I think the person whose dojo hosts should buy the drinks, BTW.

Okay well, I never got to see the video, but after reading 7 pages, I can safely make the following comments on what I would have done if I were in line.

I agree that this kind of thing is real combat. I have no dilutions about "the psychological bubble created by our protective societal norms and conventions and our 'social contract' with each other."

The right way to handle that would have been to say "I'll call you back", hang up, put the cell phone away and watch to see if a manager handles the situation correctly. I would grab the comb I have in my pocket as that would have been the best 'weapon-like-thing' I had on me.

If you see it is not going well then you leave. Period. Much like Jean said to do. In you car, call home on the cell phone and have them order a pizza for delivery or pickup. While eating the pizza at home, you can discuss the irate customer as sacrastically as you want.

It is simply not up to me to straighten out who is being fair in the world with regard to lines. If enough people get annoyed and follow suit, the manager/owner of that store will have to come up with a simple ticket system like at deli in most stores or something else - or they get to go out of business. This kind of thing was handled in New York city with regard to making lines to get cabs by the mayor just deciding that the police would ticket anyone breaking the rules.

I agree that it may not be part of the job description of the person behind the counter to handle such a situation. Their default action always falls to get a manager. The manager is supposed to try to calm down the irate customer, if they can't they are supposed to ask them to leave, and if the irate customer doesn't leave then the manager is supposed call the police. All of that takes time. If the other employee continues to server the customers in line, and the craziness is semi-contained then they are handling it okay and I might stay in line.

Now, if the women did start yelling at me while I walked briskly toward the door, I'd probably tell her "I'm sorry but my grandmother is on fire, excuse me!"

If she managed to close the distance to attack me, I'd be doing aikido with her - doing minimal damage as I controlled that situation. Again, I agree that this is not dojo time. This is real combat time and she could have a weapon herself - which is why I would be walking briskly towards safety and towards more space to move around in. If she were armed with a knife (I don't think she could have caught me before I got to the door, but..) if I had no other options but to fight her or be stabbedor slashed I'd pull out a comb to at least have something in my hand that slashed too.

If her huge boyfriend came at me, we'd already be outside or very close to that door as opposed to such a confined place. I would do aikido with him as well - because that would be my best chance to survive.

Because I train for multiple attack, I am quite certain that a lot of her body would somehow be between me and him. If he started to attack/approach in a threatening manner, I'd really want to somehow throw her at his knees. He could lunge - and I'd throw him or he could back up and catch his girlfriend. Either way, I'd have a lot more distance and room to be working with. Depending on the situation, (say no one was armed) I might actually go for ikkyo, iriminage, or shihonage. I believe they work well as long as you are not directly pushing. pulling lifting, etc...

If I somehow ended up in that corner and the big guy was attacking me, I'd certainly consider helping him hit that wall instead of my head. I'm quite sure that I wouldn't be looking at my cell phone. You can change where the person is tracking you in space just by moving your knees like in the rowing exercise. I might get him to miss me completely with a strike. If minimal damage to be saye really equalled "nuking" him, well then I suppose that's what I'd go for as well. It's all judgement.

As far as being in the line, watching the attack, I personally would already be gone. I made a commitment to be around for my wife and child. That's my priority. I'd be happy to call the police from my car. I think the passifists in aikido are a bit confused. Aikido cannot work with any degree of dependability if you are not in position to do maximum damage and making the choice to do less. Ghandi's message was not passive resistance, in fact it was to do the right thing despite the consequences. In my judgement, the right thing if for me to be home with my family eating pizza.

Now, one pont to larry. While I have been know to train a bit hard at times resulting in a bit of blood and getting lumped up - I like the term "darling" and wouldn't mind a bit if someone called me that.

I don't have a gun, and I don't want one. I don't have a mask or a cape either - although might not mind having a cape.

Lastly, "Tolerance is the luxury of those with no convictions." - Wow... I hope those convictions are extremely well thought out, quite often that's just not the case.

Rob

Rob,

This is response to your post #170, good reply. Clear and concise 'what to do list' in such situation.

Boon.

A frightening situation, the staff should have been more forthright to calm the situation down! The victim should not have got into a 'face to face' with the woman. He should have immediately kept the space around him, regardless of whether there was a woman involved. The large bloke felt he had to defend her for the sake of his own ego. It looked like this fight was unavoidable in that it had all the bad elements going for it. AGAIN he let the attacker get the first strike in. After that his chances dropped considerably. Basically fear and unwillingness to physically protect himself once his space was invaded produced an inability to defend himself. Victim was a sitting duck.

Having been in somewhat similar situations I'd like to add my comments.

The girlfriend who cut in line was exhibiting classic passive/aggressive behavior.
She was going to cut in line, and we will never know for sure exactly why. Was it an attempt on her part just to save her valuable time, or was it from her feelings of inferiority and a "need" to have power over those she cut in front of?

In the city I work in there was an interesting development that was even documented in the newspaper and discussed in several editorials.

People began a very odd behavior of stepping off the curb into the street in front of moving cars. Yes, it happened to me many, many times. At first I just simply could not believe it. Eventually I just came to expect it and just had to learn to drive very cautiously and much slower than usual. I even had mothers with children in baby strollers step right off the curb and slowly walk across the street.
The whole time none of these people would look at you or even acknowledge that you were there. However, I always had an odd feeling that they were just "Daring" you to hit them, a very strange game of chicken if you ask me. I don't know of anyone actually getting hit, but I always had the feeling that it would have become a "bad" situation similar to this pizza video.
The "experts" who discussed this in the newspaper talked about the feelings of these people to have the need to have a certain power or control over the drivers in the cars. In my opinion the woman who cut in line was doing the exact same thing.

Once he made the comment about it NOW taking longer to get the pizza- He gave her what she was looking for -- the opportunity to lash out.

I have been in the same situation and have had people blatantly cut in line. In my younger years I would have been much more confrontational than I am now.
Now that I have a better understanding of how the world works. In 99 out of one hundred cases I would say nothing, she is looking for a confrontation and I'm NOT going to be the one to give it to her. However, in that one case out of one hundred I would have done the exact same thing this victim did. I would have made an indirect comment, aimed at her behavior, but not spoken directly to her.

I have watched the video several times.
In my opinion this is what happened.

One - When the girl friend started to yell and cuss the victim out the owner/manager stepped in and tried to kick her out. This gave the victim a feeling that the situation would be resolved; a person in a position of power had stepped in and would surely take care of the situation.
(-As soon as she began to yell I would have left -- my experience tells me that NO good will ever come from any situation where someone has lost it so bad that they will yell in public like that)

Two -- His back was turned when the big guy came in, that is the point when the girlfriend began to hit him. I do not think he knew the big guy was with her until it was far too late.

Three- He makes the dumbest mistake of his life While the big boyfriend is still in the first stages of confrontation he takes his eyes off of him -- unbelievably starts to make a phone call and as many have said- gave the boyfriend the opportunity to just wail that first hit on him. Once the line was crossed and that first punch was delivered the rest were easier to throw. Instead of taking his eyes off of the boyfriend this is the time for him to have tried some passive/reconciliatory behavior, both hands up-palms out, looking the guy straight in the eyes, letting him know he has your full attention -- and then side step to the door and getting the HELL out of there.

Using your brain and getting out of there is nothing to be ashamed of.

All in all this was a bad situation I think the victim should have made better choices, but I cant agree with those that have said that it was his fault and that he was "looking for it"

2 wrongs don't make a right. All parties were in the wrong. Plus you have to ask yourself of all the people to cut in front of why him?

Secondly IMO if you sell enough tickets sooner or later your gonna have to put on a show. And in that location you never know who's gonna be attending.

And to me most importantly - All this could have been avoided - yes avoided had the victim kept quiet, and been humble.

Now being I'm new to the forum correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Aikido based off of non violence? If you are a practitioner are not to follow the way? Just a question as I see the comments of run - do this or do that-.

Avoiding confrontations is the best part of not having to fight one. But unfortunately in todays day and age, that is not the case or is it?

Hi there, this will be my first post.....like....ever,

I read a lot of other posts, not all of them....I wanted to post this today!!
The question was what I would do different because of my study in Aikido. First of all, because of my training I have gained more control over my emotions....and I certainly wouldn't look so agressive, because that will trigger other people's agression.
In other words my Shisei would be wrong. My mental condition would be wrong.

Second of all....as soon as I see someone coming so close, I would make room, (that pizza place was very small, so it would be difficult) but at all times I had to maintain my Ma ai. So that that first hit could've been bend.

And last but not least, Ki no Nagare....a flowing movement....not only with his attack, but also with her words....if he had said that she was right no matter what the hell she was babbling about...the conflict could've been avoided.

There you have my opinion....the three principals of Aikido

P.S:....hope this is a good first post.....and I'm sorry for any mistakes in my english