Chen Bing Clip

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Peoples personal lives have nothing to do with the topic.
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Please leave the thread to those of us having a discussion about the thread.

Joseph Arriola wrote: Sorry Dan, Well when you practice another 15 years maybe you will see it. I'm also sorry you can't answer the simple question about your age.

I certainly will love to see how far he's gotten in 5 years, let alone 15. However that is from a perspective that you will not understand because you haven't had the pleasure of training with him.

Joseph Arriola wrote: Don't feel too insecure about your lack of achievements. There is always time until it is too late.

ROTFL!!! That has to be *THE* funniest thing I've read in a long time. It's beyond hilarious. If I wasn't laughing so hard, I'd probably think it's sad.

Joe, not only for you, but for the rest reading this. Dan has more skill than I've seen in most everyone I've met. But, more amazing than that is his ability to teach and get people to have those very same skills he has. I have seen all the various stages that people are at while training with him. I've felt other people -- who showed up to train that had nothing like I did -- over the last year and a half get stronger and more competent in structure. I've felt people who have trained lots longer. You can see, tell, and feel the differences.

Some of these people have 5 to 15 years in a martial art and they've progressed more in a year and a half than in 10 years prior training. Not because of the prior training, either. But because of the ability of Dan to get people to *do* and his methodology. If you show up and train, you progress. There is no hidden agenda, nothing held back. And in his students, you see the progression levels from beginner to advanced.

He exemplifies what a student of Budo should be. As a martial artist, he's top of the class. As an instructor, he's even better. But, where he really shines is as a human being. There is no ego in training, no manner of bowing and scraping, no sense of superiority, and an atmosphere of learning by all. And then he does something beyond all that -- he gives his time and effort to pass on what he knows for free.

You really have no clue, Joe. I say the same thing to everyone who doesn't understand -- go train with Dan and experience things firsthand.

Joseph Arriola wrote: As for something else to offer, try listening to Eric a bit more. Being a pilot and a professional, I think he has a few more educated answers that you might appreciate. I certainly am open minded. Best, Joe

Erick doesn't have a clue. And he won't change that. Will you be different than Erick?

Mark

Mark Murray wrote: I Joe, not only for you, but for the rest reading this. Dan has more skill than I've seen in most everyone I've met. But, more amazing than that is his ability to teach and get people to have those very same skills he has. I have seen all the various stages that people are at while training with him. I've felt other people -- who showed up to train that had nothing like I did -- over the last year and a half get stronger and more competent in structure. I've felt people who have trained lots longer. You can see, tell, and feel the differences. Some of these people have 5 to 15 years in a martial art and they've progressed more in a year and a half than in 10 years prior training. Not because of the prior training, either. But because of the ability of Dan to get people to *do* and his methodology. If you show up and train, you progress. There is no hidden agenda, nothing held back. And in his students, you see the progression levels from beginner to advanced. You really have no clue, Joe. I say the same thing to everyone who doesn't understand -- go train with Dan and experience things firsthand. Erick doesn't have a clue. And he won't change that. Will you be different than Erick? Mark

Mark,

How do you know?
Why should I trust your opinion. How long have you studied? How long have you taught? Are you knocking people across the room?
This is called a resume.

With Chen Beng, I can see his technique. I can make my assessments based on my resume. I don't do so because a group of beginners get together and decide that "someone better" than them is better than the rest of us. But, then, you do not give credence to 1) resume 2) experience 3) or video.

As such, Why should I trust a beginner with 5-15 years training...who is learning from an intermediate. I invite you and Dan to come to San Francisco to teach a class.

You and the rest attack aikido and its great teachers. You don't see it as a complete martial art because you have not looked "in depth". This board has provided wonderful examples of "mastery". Yet, you choose to follow the "popularity contest".

Nonetheless I enjoy the randori.

Hey Mark,
Nice post. Don't sweat the small stuff.

Best,
Ron

Hi Joe, my name is Rob. I'm an aikikai yondan. As I understand it, I'm an intermediate by definition of aikikai rank - and my years in aikido is not in the 5 to 15 years range either. I can knock people with no structure across the room. If I can sucker someone with typical aikido skill into trying to put a nikkyo on me, I can probably get them to achieve a low orbit. I have let a BJJ instructor freely attack me for over an hour (almost 2) and shut his lame attempts to take me to the ground down completely.

However, I still feel I am a total beginner and that I suck when I compare what I can do to others I have respect for in marital arts. I was starting to think I must be martial arts retard or something until I met Dan.

Since I met Dan I feel like I'm making more progress than I ever did. I met people in Dan's class who after 1 year could do things I've never seen/felt anyone in martial arts be able to do with less than 20-25 years of intense training. I've been trying to dramatically alter my life so that I can get to Dan's class consistently. I have a 6 figure job, and a loving family as well. If that lends any further credibility to my opinion.

Anyway, I agree with you, Joe. I think Dan is probably intermediate. I think Sagawa was probably advanced. The difference is that I think most in aikido are not even on that scale. You may be on that scale. I don't know. But I would suggest that you consider my opinion to to be credible enough in terms of the level of aiki I have experienced.

Rob

Joseph Arriola wrote: You and the rest attack aikido and its great teachers. You don't see it as a complete martial art because you have not looked "in depth". This board has provided wonderful examples of "mastery". Yet, you choose to follow the "popularity contest".

Geez, Joe. Still with the not having a clue. Not one of us has attacked aikido or its teachers. There's a great many out there that I'd train with at the drop of a hat. People like Clark, Hooker, Ikeda, Gleason, Utada, Parker, Heiny, Ledyard, etc. The list goes on.

There's been tons of debate about aikido being "complete" or not. You weren't here.

There's been tons of posts about some great people in aikido. You weren't here.

If anyone hasn't looked "in depth" at aikido, I would imagine it to be you. How long have you trained in aikido? Who is your teacher? What seminars have you attended? How long have you been on AikiWeb? E-Budo? Aikido Journal? Where are your bonafides in the aikido world that you can claim "mastery" and call other teachers "intermediates"? Who sings your praises here other than yourself? Where are your students of aikido, since you claim over 40 years of teaching? Where are your videos of aikido? Why didn't you receive good reception on other martial arts boards like Empty Flower? Care to answer those questions?

Joseph Arriola wrote: Mark, This is called a resume. With Chen Beng, I can see his technique. I can make my assessments based on my resume. I don't do so because a group of beginners get together and decide that "someone better" than them is better than the rest of us. But, then, you do not give credence to 1) resume 2) experience 3) or video.

And all of which has pretty muck knocked you out of the discussion in my book-as your resume is in your body movments displayed. *Warning* this is not a personal attack such as the types offered by you in rebuttal. I am discussing your movement and skills.
Resume. Your martial skills may have some merit- I have no idea. Your physical movement dissplays an almost complete lack of understanding of anything internal or of aiki. I didn't need to see it, as thes previous discussions more or less proved it a while back. Can you explain how you were so out of balance in such a rudimentary and non pressing session? Or why so many who have trained this way can point out the obvious flaws and could even correct them in you by showing you how to retrain your body to have structure and utilize it in a more cohesive and even explosive manner?
I am reminded of some taiji people I saw trying to copy the "movement" of their teacher ad had the imitation of form down pat. It looked great. But alas, they had nothing and could be blow right through. Your body demonstrated that someone with real skills would simply take your strucutre apart with ease. YOu mught have the martial attributes to defend your weaknesses somewhat, but that's a separet issue Joe.
For purposes of this discussio we were talking about internal skills.
I think you have graciously dsiplayed for an increasingly large and educated audience-that you have none.
So thanks for that. Next?

You and the rest attack aikido and its great teachers. You don't see it as a complete martial art because you have not looked "in depth". This board has provided wonderful examples of "mastery". Yet, you choose to follow the "popularity contest". Nonetheless I enjoy the randori.

Well most everyone here is IN Aikido Joe-under those teachers. ANd they have no intentions of leaving. They intend to get theres and fix Aikido, and then openly share with people who want to know and understand Aiki. Last time I checked Joe, "those people" you are cutting up just now? include a hell of a lot of aikido and CMA teachers, as well was Aikido, koryu, MMA, ICMA, students-many of whom are far along in years.

I think you have lost touch with just who it is that is having these discussions these days. It is a growing field of interest, and thus far the conversion rate is close to 100%. From some one who likes to discuss a scientific method, that is a pretty compelling statement from such a diverse group that doesn't know each other.
Dismissing it out of hand is beginning to sound pretty foolish.
In the mean time. lets be frank and argue the skills or lack thereof. and not cut each other up- shall we.

Joseph Arriola wrote: With Chen Beng, I can see his technique. I can make my assessments based on my resume. I don't do so because a group of beginners get together and decide that "someone better" than them is better than the rest of us. But, then, you do not give credence to 1) resume 2) experience 3) or video.

Joseph,

Why not provide an analysis of what Chen Bing is doing in the clip? Your previous statement about external usage should be explained more I think given that Chen Bing has worldwide renown as an internal stylist and has won many push hands contests in China. Of course, that does not necessarily mean anything however I know people who have touched Chen Bing and I will take their word for it because I know their ability. I think you should qualify your statements by providing some detailed knowledge of internal usage.

On a side note, I have felt instructors who have trained from a few years to fifty years and I can tell you hours trained does not make someone capable. A friend of mine who has trained internal strength for ~7 years or so, far outpaces many instructors who have trained 20 plus years.

Tim Anderson

Tim Anderson wrote: Joseph, Why not provide an analysis of what Chen Bing is doing in the clip? Your previous statement about external usage should be explained more I think given that Chen Bing has worldwide renown as an internal stylist and has won many push hands contests in China. Of course, that does not necessarily mean anything however I know people who have touched Chen Bing and I will take their word for it because I know their ability. I think you should qualify your statements by providing some detailed knowledge of internal usage. On a side note, I have felt instructors who have trained from a few years to fifty years and I can tell you hours trained does not make someone capable. A friend of mine who has trained internal strength for ~7 years or so, far outpaces many instructors who have trained 20 plus years. Tim Anderson

I'd be happy with Joe trying to explain how his own body was such a mess in his own video? Why post it in the first place -it being such a poor representation. There are reasons why he looked like he did. How would he correct someone-is he even capable of seeing the failures as they occured? Even now in retrospect? Of further interest was Marks comments about EF and Joe not being welcomed there.

Again as with Erick or anyone else-much is made out of those not being able to discuss it -too much I think. Its as if were at a convention where everyone has to be acknowledged and accepted. What isn't talked about or discussed is the hundreds of people who now get it and agree and can spot things, or the hundreds of others who at least acknowldege something is going on and trust the folks they know who are training this way. I think it has proven to be a far more positive influence on aikido so far than negative. I refuse to let just a few detractors or some poor communication ruin what is proving to be so beneficial to so many. That's why I so freely apologize if things get negative. We all have to look at our own motives and goals. Why are we hare talking about these things? What are we trying to accomplish?

Dan Harden wrote: I think you have lost touch with just who it is that is having these discussions these days. It is a growing field of interest, and thus far the conversion rate is close to 100%. From some one who likes to discuss a scientific method, that is a pretty compelling statement from such a diverse group that doesn't know each other. Dismissing it out of hand is beginning to sound pretty foolish. In the mean time. lets be frank and argue the skills or lack thereof. and not cut each other up- shall we.

Dan,

Gee I must sound like John McCain with his 7 houses...being out of touch and all.

But, Dan, I see you are a bit more confident now that the rest of your "young friends" have massed for randori. Popular vote, gang mentality still does not show or prove your skill. How old are you?

Yondan...hehehe. I bet, Rob must outrank Dan Harden. So, that doesnt say much for his inflated rank.

Come over and let's play. Show me your videos. You guys are good at being "movie critics" not so good at making videos, decent at acting though.

We aren't really tearing each other up. At least not in "words".

Joseph Arriola wrote: Dan, Gee I must sound like John McCain with his 7 houses...being out of touch and all. But, Dan, I see you are a bit more confident now that the rest of your "young friends" have massed for randori. Popular vote, gang mentality still does not show or prove your skill. How old are you? Yondan...hehehe. I bet, Rob must outrank Dan Harden. So, that doesnt say much for his inflated rank. Come over and let's play. Show me your videos. You guys are good at being "movie critics" not so good at making videos, decent at acting though. We aren't really tearing each other up. At least not in "words".

Uh, Joe, you never do answer the questions, do you? You just post more hyperbole that goes nowhere. Do you have any clue as to ages, ranks, styles, depth, really, pretty much anything that has to do with aikido?

So, who are you to talk about aikido in such depth? Your videos don't have anything to do with aikido. So, where are your videos of aikido? Where are your videos to prove your skill in aikido? You post videos of arnis, so you aren't above posting them. Where are the aikido vids?

Hi Mark
That pretty much did it for me. The skills displayed were self explanatory. The attitude? Rather surprising. When there's nothing of substance to say- its personal attack time
Oh well.

Mark Murray wrote: Uh, Joe, you never do answer the questions, do you? You just post more hyperbole that goes nowhere. Do you have any clue as to ages, ranks, styles, depth, really, pretty much anything that has to do with aikido? So, who are you to talk about aikido in such depth? Your videos don't have anything to do with aikido. So, where are your videos of aikido? Where are your videos to prove your skill in aikido? You post videos of arnis, so you aren't above posting them. Where are the aikido vids?

Mark,

You are such in a hurry to become a master...

It is the student that asks the question. It is the teacher's prerogative to answer...especially when the student has trouble structuring the question. Train harder.

I've seen your limited attempts to show your experiments on video. Talk to me in another 20 years. Perhaps, then you will be better able to ask the right questions. Better yet, come to one of my classes. Bring Dan.

By the way, did you see the Kendo video, that was put on this board?

I will teach you whatever weapon you'd like to learn. I will even introduce you to some of the local masters.

Tim Anderson wrote: Joseph, Why not provide an analysis of what Chen Bing is doing in the clip? Your previous statement about external usage should be explained more I think given that Chen Bing has worldwide renown as an internal stylist and has won many push hands contests in China. Of course, that does not necessarily mean anything however I know people who have touched Chen Bing and I will take their word for it because I know their ability. I think you should qualify your statements by providing some detailed knowledge of internal usage. Tim Anderson

Tim,

I did provide analysis. Look at my original post. I talked about his leakage of "sound energy". I talked about how "hard" he was in comparison to Hyang, Mochido and O'Sensei.

You don't see a high degree of "softness". Look at his hands, specifically. They tense when he strikes/grabs.

There are levels of practice in using and developing internal energy. In the beginning, you are concerned with developing the "tube" that is used to emitt internal energy. It's all about structure.

As you get better, you rid yourself of the "crutch of structure". Stances and forms become the very obstacle to the next level of "internal" power. And then, When you think you have "it"...you return to honing structure. You then rid youself again. The process is spirical...yang to yin, yin to yang.

The proof is how you can "knock the guy across the room" better and with more ease with each cycle. (In the Kendo video...the practitioner's affirm this lifetime process)

Look at Hyang, Mochido and O'Sensei. They were at points in their aged training, where "structure" was absent. They were soft and fluid. They became void of structure.

With my own students, when they are dying to learn the internal, I tell them "no" learn to fight instead. When they have learned to fight, then I tell them learn the "internal" to be better fighters. And when they have learned "the various levels of the internal" I tell them to learn how to fight all over again.

Joseph Arriola wrote: Dan, Gee I must sound like John McCain with his 7 houses...being out of touch and all. But, Dan, I see you are a bit more confident now that the rest of your "young friends" have massed for randori. Popular vote, gang mentality still does not show or prove your skill. How old are you? Yondan...hehehe. I bet, Rob must outrank Dan Harden. So, that doesnt say much for his inflated rank. Come over and let's play. Show me your videos. You guys are good at being "movie critics" not so good at making videos, decent at acting though. We aren't really tearing each other up. At least not in "words".

No one is saying Dan has rank in aikido. I am saying he has incredible ability to do and teach aiki.

Why do you feel my rank is inflated? I actually agree. But in my experience the aikikai system takes into account people growing into rank a bit.

I feel I need to study a lot more of what Dan is teaching so I can better execute what Saotome sensei, Ikeda Sensei, and Gleason sensei (as well as others like Ledyard sensei) are teaching me in aikido. I am starting to be able to perform beyond mind/body unification such that I can be doing somethings with my body and some different things with my mind - which is my working definition of yondan. I wasn't brilliant enough mentally or physically to steal that too well (meaning too quickly) from my aikido teachers. Dan's approach offered a much clearer path for me - and several others.

When you consider people's rank and what the commensurate ability to that rank is/was supposed to be I think MANY people in aikido are far over ranked. They tend to get rank by sticking around for a long time and rarely getting much beyond sandan ability. That was my perception before I met Dan. Now I just more firmly believe that. I hadn't realized that I had set my image of the "bar" too low.

Rob

PS

It seems clear that your feelings are hurt, but I haven't said anything nasty to you. Relax.

Dan Harden wrote: Hi Mark That pretty much did it for me. The skills displayed were self explanatory. The attitude? Rather surprising. When there's nothing of substance to say- its personal attack time Oh well.

With all due respect Dan. You've been talking and critiquing others here for years, and you have yet to put yourself out there "on camera"? What point of reference do we dear readers have to draw on?

Heck you sure are quick to "jump on" Matsuoka Sensei, Abe Sensei, and a host of others...Sadly even though most say you have phenomenal skills of which I have no doubt... There remains that void between talking the talk and walking the walk. We dear readers eagerly await the day when you submit visual proof.

Again with all due respect...I can't wait to see your videos...

William Hazen

William Hazen wrote: Heck you sure are quick to "jump on" Matsuoka Sensei, Abe Sensei, and a host of others...Sadly even though most say you have phenomenal skills of which I have no doubt... There remains that void between talking the talk and walking the walk. We dear readers eagerly await the day when you submit visual proof. Again with all due respect...I can't wait to see your videos...

This is like.... the best thread as far as tabloid threads go.
I'm running out of popcorn guys!

Joseph Arriola wrote: Chen Beng is a "young man" with good foundation. But, obviously, he is using "external" more than "internal" energy. His use of "noise" and sound energy indicate a desire to impress his audience to what "they can relate to and understand".

Actually he did that to give himself a boost of power, "heng" and "ha" = store and release. Eventually you don't need the sound, but using it helps to more strongly activate the release mechanism.
Btw that's a bread and butter concept for Tai Chi (not just Chen) but you would know that wouldn't you, mr tai chi mastah

I can't wait to see Dan's barn.

William Hazen wrote: With all due respect Dan. You've been talking and critiquing others here for years, and you have yet to put yourself out there "on camera"? What point of reference do we dear readers have to draw on? Heck you sure are quick to "jump on" Matsuoka Sensei, Abe Sensei, and a host of others...Sadly even though most say you have phenomenal skills of which I have no doubt... There remains that void between talking the talk and walking the walk. We dear readers eagerly await the day when you submit visual proof. Again with all due respect...I can't wait to see your videos... William Hazen

Hey Bud
No offense taken, but I'm giving you the rasberries anyway.

I could care less about videos, and have no interest in doing them whatsoever.
There is no "void" for me walking-the- walk that I can see. Why? It does not require me being vetting by you or anyone else. Every time one of you touched me, it satisfied you. It doesn'tchange what i was doing to walk that walk twenty years go, ten, or last week. Nor will affect what I will do tommorrow, next year, or ten years from now. I am a training madman, I was training in 8 hour sessions long before aikiweb or E-Budo and don't expect to change any time soon.

If I see people in front of me-I wire frame them and fix them and show them ways to improve their structure and move, If I see a video its the same thing. I actually avoid most all videos on the net and commenting on them. You just happened to see ones I replied to.
If folks are confident enought to call themselves teachers, or experts, and charge money for giving technical expert advice- then whats the beef? Joe here is a great example. If you tell people you are doing internal arts and you look like that-people need to know how that looks to others they know have real skills. Or in the case of him stating to Mark M. "I will teach you any weapon you want to know!" Thankfully some things speak for themselves.
In Aikido if teachers claim expertise in aiki, but are either a mess or seriously lacking, someone needs to cry foul. I think we have had quite enough nonsense foisted on us as MA students. The last people to complain should be those who self proclaim their expertise and charge for it with the tacit agreement that they will help YOU improve.
I make no such claims. I just help where and when I can. Seems to be working.
So consider, that way back William, I never asked to be vetted in the first place-you fellas more or less pressed for it.
I haven't changed.

roflmao!!!!

Rob, I'll make more popcorn . . . we need plenty for this thread!

I'll probably get "carded" for saying the obvious, but these threads have gone to hell anyway - they could be great if people would at least just stop responding to lawyers with mental problems.

Dan Austin wrote: I'll probably get "carded" for saying the obvious, but these threads have gone to hell anyway - they could be great if people would at least just stop responding to lawyers with mental problems.

Um, lawyers with mental problems? Isn't that redundant?

Sunny Liberti wrote: roflmao!!!! Rob, I'll make more popcorn . . . we need plenty for this thread!

I just came back from my dojo and it looks like it's time for me to make some popcorn as well. I'm curious why every *internal* thread turns into a "call out Dan Harden" one.......

As an aside, no students came to class tonight so I had a treat......got to do 2 hours of solo training. This stuff continues to amaze me.

It is unfortunate but after only 17yrs of hard Aikido training my body is wrecked, the most serious damage being instability of both shoulders due to multiple dislocations, torn right biceps tendon, kneecap tracking problems, torn ligaments in one of my fingers, and a neck injury (that was actually from ground work with a BJJ'er).

The more I do the solo exercises the more I can feel my neck, back, shoulders permanently release tension. My shoulders are getting range of motion back but strangely seem more stable wrt posterior subluxation which has plagued them for the last decade or so. I've heard these exercises touted as "healing" and although initially skeptical, I'm starting to believe it!

The other strange thing is tonight I tried doing some weapons kata and I found my body getting really fatigued. It feels like the solo work is beginning to "rewire" things. Weird.....but cool.

Mark

Dan Austin wrote: I'll probably get "carded" for saying the obvious, but these threads have gone to hell anyway - they could be great if people would at least just stop responding to lawyers with mental problems.

in keeping with the entertainment tonight ->
http://www.extremelysmart.com/humor/lawyerjokes.php