Ribs...

Hi all, first time typer here...

So I've been practicing Aikido now for about 6 weeks and last week I took a bad fall and slammed my ribs against the mat.

The day after, I had a lot of pain, but there was no visible swelling or bruising. Saw the doc, he said it wasn't broken, probably a deep bruise or something.

To stop rambling and get to the point I guess, when I started in the class my hips would be really sore, and then my shoulders. These areas of discomfort got stronger I guess, or adapted to the techniques.

Do your ribs adapt as well, or do they pretty much just get in the way?

Thanks for readin'!

Hi James---welcome to the wonderful world of beginning ukemi, or is-it-normal-for-it-to-hurt-like-this?

It depends on what made your shoulders and hips hurt, and what is wrong with your ribs...your doc gave you a rib diagnosis, you might ask a senior or your sensei about the other aches, but here is my guess:

If the hips and shoulders hurt from falls/rolls, then it was probably due to landing on them incorrectly, similar to what you probably did with your ribs. But they are a bit better padded, less likely to bruise the bone, and the larger muscles can work out small spasm with your normal activities.

Your rib is not so protected, so you could bruise it (think slamming your shin against the coffee table vs bumping your hip into the breakfast table) more easily. Plus a good spasm in a smaller muscle in the back (i'm guessing where you hurt is say the mid-thoracic region (mid upper back) halfway between the spine and your side) is hard to work out.

so i think it would not be unusual for this to hurt more and longer..still, see your doc again if it continues to hurt, sometimes fractures are missed.

Don't worry. Your whole body will toughen up, and stuff like that won't be an issue after a few months of regular training - and improved ukemi...

On the other hand, if you are overweight and/or seriously lacking in hip or shoulder strength and stability, this is a different story. I wasn't heinously out of shape, but I always had chronic aches and pains in my hips legs and lower back. I eventually bit the bullet and took a year off to get in shape, focussing on bodyweight and compound strength moves like pullups, squats, dips, etc... Now I have no problems whatsoever.

I've seen lots of guys who are overweight, and/or weak in the upper body who have neverending shoulder problems for the same reason. They try layoffs, alternative therapies, doctors, etc... The simple fact of the matter is that they don't have enough strength in their shoulder girdle to withstand Aikido training. Using the training itself as a fitness method doesn't always work, because the stress isn't under enough control to produce progressive strength increase, just injury.

As the old addage goes: get in shape to play, don't play to get in shape.

Sorry if that's too much of a tangent, but I'm now a fitness trainer, so it's easy to get me started.

Kevin Wilbanks, CSCS

Hi all, thanks for the responses,

Just to clarify a couple things maybe,

The bruising is on my right side, the 11th and 12th ribs I believe (floating, the unattached ones that jut out from the spine).

As for my health conditions, I used to weigh close to 310, but have dropped to 235. I still got the happy gut but was hoping that working on Aikido would help get rid of it.

I try to exercise as well, and do so every other day about, but i worry that if I weren't practicing Aikido, I wouldn't be doing the exercise either. Hopefully my ukemi will improve

Aikido is good for losing weight (one of many benefits) if you stick to it regularly. I began nearly 5 years ago and weighted 90+ kg. Now I weight a steady 78-79 kg. with no diet and no extra exercising. Hey, this would make a great infomercial!!!

About your ukemi, try not to force things, specially in your first weeks/months of practice.

my m8 milky started aikido last week here is a copy of his mail to me the day after

<snip>

Ow..Ow..Ow..Ow..Ow..Ow..Ow..Ow..Ow..Ow.. !

</snip>

yes aikido does hurt a little at first, watch the knees (Never plant your feet whilst turning) and watch the wrists too you'll prolly notice alot of aikidoka creak and crack alot or if your old you do that anyhoo

pete

IMHO, one of the most important things to learn is form. As uke, think of yourself as a relaxed circular ball. Roll up the hand and arm, over the shoulder, accross the back to the oposite hip, and down the leg. Ribs may get separated if with hit the mat hard without exhaling enough. So, exhale. I separated ribs when I started. Hurts.

Until again,

Lynn

I have had people that had learned their falls improperly that had problems with their ribs. On a side fall they would land on top of their arm with their ribs hitting their elbow. By doing 5 mins of work with the student they where able to correct their falls and rolls and they start to really be able to enjoy Aikido.

Talk with your instructor, ask them to watch you do your falls and rolls. They should be able to correct any mistakes that you have fairly easily.

There will be times when you do get dumped due to technique being done to fast or improperly. That should be rare cases. Always be ready to fly on your own to protect yourself, just do not lay down during the technique and get yourself hurt because you did not want to take the fall.

Ray Kissane

James Walls wrote: ...last week I took a bad fall and slammed my ribs against the mat. The day after, I had a lot of pain, but there was no visible swelling or bruising. Saw the doc, he said it wasn't broken, probably a deep bruise or something. ...when I started in the class my hips would be really sore, and then my shoulders. These areas of discomfort got stronger I guess, or adapted to the techniques.

Bumps and bruises normally come from two areas: improper alignment and retained tension.

Are you holding your breath?

Are you tensing your muscles before falling?

Do you bump your joints against the ground? This includes your bum.

Do you know what parts of your body should strike the mat as you fall?

Are you training faster than your (big) body can adequately dissipate the energy it is acquiring from your training partner?

How is your overall posture?

I think that rather than "adapting to techniques", the muscles in general become more elastic, the connective tissue becomes stronger and more flexible, and the internal organs tone up from the "massaging action" of falling onto the earth. This does not happen overnight, so don't overtrain and hurt yourself. The other night, my teacher stressed the importance of taking vitamin and mineral supplements to promote cellular and system replenishment after training.

Take care of yourself.

Jim Vance

Technically, connective tissue doesn't become more flexible and stronger. As it becomes stronger, it actually becomes more rigid - thicker, denser, with more lateral binders. Healthy variation in joint ROM, or "flexibility" is almost entirely a matter of the muscles, and is largely neurological.

In general, you want all your connective tissue to be as strong and tight as possible... especially ligaments. This is why you shouldn't lock out joints, or stretch with locked out joints. When the musculature is not engaged, the only thing preventing a given joint from prying apart is the ligaments and joint capsule. If you go tugging and pulling on the joint in this state, it can create joint laxity, which can lead to ligament tears and cartilige deterioration.


In my opinion, strength plays a much more important role than flexibility in injury prevention. If a force threatens a joint, the best defense is the strength and integrity of the surrounding musculature to protect it, to maintain alignment, and to cue the rest of the body to yield if the force is too much to resist, NOT more ROM in the joint.

The type of strength is important too. Isometric and quasi-isometric stength, as well as the ability of a muscle to rapidly deccelerate and reverse a force are key for injury prevention, once a certain level of raw strength and size in acheived.

In my experience, people often emphasize proper form without realizing that a particular student simply doesn't have enough strength to execute it. Aikido is easily as athletically demanding as many team sports, yet proper conditioning and physical preparation is often neglected, whereas in sports the need for this kind of work is a given. Many people are able to get what they need from the training itself over time, but others aren't. Often they end up quitting because of pains and injuries. It's a shame that there isn't more application of fitness training science in the Aikido world.

Also, I agree that one should take a vitamin supplement and anitoxidant supplements to insure general health. However, the best source of nutrients is a wide variety of fresh, unprocessed, and less processed real foods. Pills only contain nutrients the pill-makers know about and decided to include. Real foods contain all nutrients, both known and unknown in the most useful configurations. Pills would only be an adequate substitute if we knew absolutely everything about human physiology and nutrition, and we're a long way off.

Kevin Wilbanks, CSCS

Kevin Wilbanks wrote: Technically, connective tissue doesn't become more flexible and stronger. As it becomes stronger, it actually becomes more rigid - thicker, denser, with more lateral binders. Healthy variation in joint ROM, or "flexibility" is almost entirely a matter of the muscles, and is largely neurological.

I stand happily corrected. Why then does it feel that I can sustain more force within my joints? Is it the muscles absorbing the force or the thickening and rigidifying of the connective tissue?

Kevin Wilbanks wrote: In general, you want all your connective tissue to be as strong and tight as possible... especially ligaments. This is why you shouldn't lock out joints, or stretch with locked out joints. When the musculature is not engaged, the only thing preventing a given joint from prying apart is the ligaments and joint capsule. If you go tugging and pulling on the joint in this state, it can create joint laxity, which can lead to ligament tears and cartilige deterioration.

Wow, where were you when we were discussing joint injuries a couple of months ago? That is a great point.

Kevin Wilbanks wrote: In my opinion, strength plays a much more important role than flexibility in injury prevention. If a force threatens a joint, the best defense is the strength and integrity of the surrounding musculature to protect it, to maintain alignment, and to cue the rest of the body to yield if the force is too much to resist, NOT more ROM in the joint.

So are you saying resisting force through a joint is not a matter of getting bigger muscles, it's a matter of knowing what your muscles can absorb for the joint? Joint sensitivity promotes joint integrity?

Kevin Wilbanks wrote: The type of strength is important too. Isometric and quasi-isometric stength, as well as the ability of a muscle to rapidly deccelerate and reverse a force are key for injury prevention, once a certain level of raw strength and size in acheived.

Could you make an example within the dojo or using ukemi as a medium to explain what you just described above?

Kevin Wilbanks wrote: In my experience, people often emphasize proper form without realizing that a particular student simply doesn't have enough strength to execute it. ...Many people are able to get what they need from the training itself over time, but others aren't. Often they end up quitting because of pains and injuries.

Who are "the others"? Are there groups or attitudes that may be more injury prone? Great post by the way; you make a good addition to the health science professionals here on Aikiweb.

Jim Vance

Seems to me that a lot of people here are overlooking one of the most obvious causes of such problems, poor muscle memory in the back. Most people have some degree of disparity between their left and right sides, alignment of the neck and back are vital for proper flexing and tumbling. To test these problems, stand with both legs spread just a little bit, toes straight out, joints tight and straight. Then square your shoulders up, and then hold each arm out straight to each side, and your head looking straight and level. Then begin to extend your hands and twist them each direction, and make a fist as well. Pay attention to how these movements pull on your shoulders and upper back/neck. Keep the rest of your body relaxed while you do this. It will highlight the areas that are unnaturally tense. After this, keep your legs in the same position, but then try the "deadman's pose", where you drop your arms to your sides, and bow your head loosely. Just hang like that, and pay attention to where you feel your muscles pull. I gaurantee you will have problems that you never thought about. Doing all this in front of a mirror is even better still though cause then you can see the problems as well as feel them. If you get a chance, also try just hanging loosely from a pull-up bar, or something similar, that will point out tensions in your legs and sides primarily.

Thanks. That's a lot of questions. I'll write for a few minutes, then you may have to reiterate ones that I missed.

In general, if you progressively load body parts above a certain threshhold, and allow for adequate recovery (time, rest, nutrition), all of the tissues become stronger: bones, ligaments, tendons, muscles, etc... I would guess that if you perceive a difference in the durability or toughness of your joints, this is probably mostly a result of the development of muscle strength. Strength and muscle size are not the same, but are related, however, there are different categories/types of 'strength' that describe different muscle and movement pattern adapatations, and have to be trained differently. Size is a generic adaptation that is broadly applicable - a muscle's ability to contract increases with cross-sectional area. Other adaptations are more specific and either neurological, or relate to improvements in the muscle's energy supply.

Isometric strength means being able to hold a certain position (i.e., self resisted, no movement). I take quasi-isometric generally to mean being able to maintain an approximate position, and resist dynamic challanges to that hold. Development of this kind of strength in the shoulder girdle is essential in Aikido, to create a strong connection between upper limbs and torso, enabling efficient transmission/absorption of energy from core to extremities. Tenkan is a rudimentary example: one needs good isometric strength to maintain 'relaxed' scapulae position (i.e., neutral as opposed elevated and protracted (up around the ears)). In my view, this is not so much about literal 'relaxation' as having the strength to resist elevation and protraction of the shoulder girdle without undue strain.

To continue in an injury prevention vein - take the same shoulder issue and a forward roll. Even with proper form, there is a point where a large portion of the body's weight is loaded between the arm and the ground. At this point, the shoulder girdle musculature needs to be able to resist the force that threatens to retract and depress the scapulae, and the deltoid needs to be able to keep the humerus from folding in toward the body - this is all quasi-isometric.

As far as relevant training goes, I would prescribe what I call "focus pushups" to start. This is a pushup where feedback is used (video or partner) to ensure that one is performing the pushup with virtually no scapular movement. Another good exercise is the Russian Twist with cable resistance - basically a tenkan with both hands on the handle of a resistance cable, maintained in the center of the body.

For people whose arm collapses in the forward roll, I have also found proprioceptive/kinesthetic cues can help with learning what stabilizing the shoulder 'feels like' on the mat, and 'wake up' the relevant muscles to their new job. I have the person hold their arm in a forward roll position, then apply resistance to the forearm with my hand (simulating the ground), and have them push against it a few times immediately before attempting a roll - then I tell them to try to replicate that feeling during the roll.

The kind of people who I think need supplemental conditioning to Aikido practice is everyone. Even if you aren't currently having problems, an intelligent conditioning program will increase your resistance to injury, athletic capacity, and make training more enjoyable. The kind of people who really need it are people who are overweight, lacking in overall strength, stamina, and vigor, or anyone who is experiencing injury problems from 'normal' Aikido practice. In some cases, the deficiencies may warrant a layoff period to focus just on conditioning without the Aikido interfering with planned recovery. It all depends on the individual.

Gotta go for now.

Kevin Wilbanks, CSCS

Hello!

Just going to throw my own uninformed opinion in!

From the posts here, I'm certainly not the most medically educated person here (the liver's that...brown thing, right? ), but I can stake a fairly solid claim to being one of the most injured, so I have a pretty good take on beginning ukemi for less than athletic beginners (heh).

I was VERY worried about ukemi when I started Aikido; with all my 'after-market parts', I thought it'd hurt, trying to roll and flop around like that, I was pleasantly shocked to find it doesn't hurt at all, once you learn the right technique. In fact, it's a fairly pleasant experience, especially to one who's spent the past few years walking around like Frankenstein's monster.

Yes, Ukemi may hurt for the first little bit until something approaching the right technique is achieved, and sore muscles (particularly in the back and thighs, I found) will be had, but pain fades, muscles (and whatever connective tissue youse guys were talking about) get used to the technique, ukemi becomes more comfortable.

Everyone here: You have no idea how much a debt I owe to Aikido, giving me back much of the same grace and mobility I had before all my trips to the hospital.

Just to let you know:

I've been set on fire twice,

electrocuted once,

hypothermia (moderate +) 4 times,

6 broken ribs,

2 concussions,

2 dislocated shoulders (same side),

2 broken knees,

1 compound fracture L Fibia,

total of 9 foot bones broken,

6 in the hands

2 vertebra fused.

Last I counted, I had 175 scars.

(and a partridge in a pear tree. LOL)

Most of those caused in a single parachute accident - word to the wise, DON'T go Airborne if you enjoy a comfortable life! Hee hee!

(P.S. - some of the aikidoka I've encountered so far are surprised when I don't respond to pressure points. Pressure points cause pain...er...so what?)

In my entire Budo career - short though it might have been so far I put someone in hospital just once.

It was during a sumo practice and I threw (I'm being generous) my opponent to the mat. He landed on the rope marking out the ring and I landed on top of him. Bruised his liver (the brown thing), he had to spend the night in the hospital. The next day his entire lower back was black.

Not sure ukemi skills could have helped here but I just wanted to point out that overall more damage potential is created by falling than actual waza. That's why the mats are soft and we work so hard at ukemi. It's not just slapping the mat or rolling, but tucking the head, separating the legs, etc.

Ignacio Jaramillo (Nacho_mx) wrote: Aikido is good for losing weight (one of many benefits) if you stick to it regularly. I began nearly 5 years ago and weighted 90+ kg. Now I weight a steady 78-79 kg. with no diet and no extra exercising. Hey, this would make a great infomercial!!! About your ukemi, try not to force things, specially in your first weeks/months of practice.

This should probably be it's own thread. As a matter of fact, it crossed my mind to start one on this subject a few months ago but I never did. In my experience I haven't lost much weight doing Aikido, and I've tried. Yes, even though most classes can get quite rigorous with the quick pace and all that throwing/being thrown/forward rolls, etc.

So, I bought a mountain bike to try to add a lot more steady paced exercise and that works better for me. I used to be 5'6" 190lbs, now I'm 6'0" 190lbs!! Just Kidding, I'm now 178lbs, but I'm dissapointed still. I need to drop another 10-15 lbs, but my vice unfortunately, is beer.

Probably the reason you don't lose weight studying Aikido is that Martial Arts in general tend to be more anaerobic than aerobic. But that would depend on the nature of training in your dojo.

To be effective aerobically to lose weight you would typically have to work at a SUSTAINED heart rate of around 80% of your aerobic capacity of 30 minutes or longer.

I know it may seem like you are doing this at times....try wearing a heart rate monitor while you train. You will probably see that your heart rate varies greatly from 50% to 110% and that you really don't sustain the target zone.

HIIT is by far the most efficient fat burning exercise. Below is an attached flyer I wrote for personal trainees on the subject.

By far the main factor in fat loss is nutrition. You need to learn about the Glycemic Index and the macronutrient content of your food. Also, most people do much better on 4 or more small meals per day.

As far as the beer goes, I think the best method is incremental change using accurate record keeping (same with exercise and any behavioral change). Get a calendar you can mark on and start accurately recording the number of beers you drink each day. Once you collect some data on your weekly total, set a goal of reducing the total number by a reasonable increment, and/or increasing the number of beer-free days per week, etc...

Kevin Wilbanks, CSCS

Jacksonville, FL

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Probably the reason you don't lose weight studying Aikido is that Martial Arts in general tend to be more anaerobic than aerobic... To be effective aerobically to lose weight you would typically have to work at a SUSTAINED heart rate of around 80% of your aerobic capacity of 30 minutes or longer.

This is simply false. The figures you are citing are based on the assumption that the contibution of exercise to burning fat occurs only DURING EXERCISE. In fact, the most efficient contibution of exercise to fat burning is related to elevating the resting metabolism permanently (muscle gain) or for an extended period (related to exercise intensity). See my attachment on HIIT. A recent study quantified HIIT as being NINE TIMES AS EFFECTIVE as continuous aerobics for burning fat.

In fact, here's anothe on losing fat:

Thanks for the text files, I appreciate that.

"To be effective aerobically to lose weight you would typically have to work at a SUSTAINED heart rate of around 80% of your aerobic capacity of 30 minutes or longer."---Kevin Leavitt

That's what I meant by my orginal post.

Although it regularly gets quite rigorous at times, it's not that way all the time. I've taken a few classes way back in my past in other Martial Arts and they do tend to focus much more on "strength building/aerobic activity" type exercises than the typical Aikido dojo. This is why I've decided to buy a bike so that I can ride on a STEADY pace for longer periods of time rather than up and down like a roller coaster. So, I have lost weight, but only after I bought the bike in February, started drinking a LOT of water, and cut out all soft drinks, but it's still not enough weight loss in my opinion. I quit smoking after 18 years about a year and a half ago, the only thing left that's preventing me from losing weight is the calories and carbs in beer. I'll follow your advice regarding that as well. Thanks.

Dave Organ (DaveO) wrote: Hello! <snip> Just to let you know: I've been set on fire twice, ....... </snippet>

I just gotta know if you were set on fire in the parachute accident, or during randori???

Cause we've got an old flamethrower in the closet that Sensei keeps threatening to get out!

-jon

Now there's an interesting poll - how many times have you been in the Emergency Room due to aikido???

I remember being a 165 lbs, 5ft 10 ... thirty years ago, unlike my middleage size of 285lbs just over six feet tall after two rounds of steroids to cure Bell's Palsy the last three years. Not to go off into the poor little me syndrome, but I am waiting to go deaf to regain my balance from a serious deterioration from Meniere's disease.

I can understand how injury, over zealous training, and balance can be affected by going to fast or too far in trying to keep up with the class. Don't let the profieciency of the class be your ruler as to what you can do, or must do to safely practice.

If you have fallen improperly, or been thrown hard enough to fall improperly, then obviously the practice is beyond your present skill level. Speak up. Bring it down a notch. Get practice within your present level so you don't get injured.

Like all of mom's and grandma's old sayings, eat right/ get plenty of rest/ and don't overdo it, maybe you should consider taking it down a notch to let technique overcome speed and strength ... you will find your partners mistaking technique as speed and strength, especially in the early training years.

We all mean well when we try to give advise, but what you do to practice Aikido at your present level is up to you.

Like all practice, you get better with practice, hence making you look like a master of Aikido because you took the time to properly train and gain the proper skills for each level of your training.

My hat is off to you for having the 'where-with-all' to even practice Aikido with all those 'fun' injurys.

As you learn the true applications for Aikido, you will see a very deep martial art that is practiced right out in the open.

To Kevin Willibanks: Read your attached article. Agree with the fact that you have to burn more calories then you are taken in. No problem there.

Fact still remains from most experts in the field of exercise that low intensity aerobic exercise is better for you for weight loss than high intensity anaerobic exercise. Again, I said TYPICALLY martial arts would fall more in the anaerobic range than the aerobic range.

Some one studying martial arts who was looking to lose wieght would be better to supplement or cross train with 1 hour of brisk walking a day at 80% of max heart rate than skipping rope fast (or sprinting for that matter) for the same period. Not only that, if you really could skip rope for one hour a day SUSTAINED, you increase your likelyhood for injury due to stress.

Once again, I do agree that you must tip the scales on caloric intake versus caloric consumption. My point is that a typical 1 hour aikido class, while obviously beneficial, is not the optimium way to develop a weightloss program. If that is your goal you would be better off spending your hour doing something else.

I don't think you have understood my prescriptions for fat loss. HIIT sessions never last longer than 20 minutes, and half that time is rest periods. Even if you used only one activity (like jumping rope) for your HIIT, which I specifically did not prescribe, that would be 10 minutes, not one hour. One of the great virtues of high-intensity intervals is that they are vastly more time-efficient than continuous aerobics. Reread the articles and/or check out these links:

http://www.cbass.com/FATBURN.HTM

http://www.wsu.edu/athletics/strength/hiit.htm

"Fact still remains from most experts in the field of exercise that low intensity aerobic exercise is better for you for weight loss than high intensity anaerobic exercise"

I contend that this is not any kind of fact whatever. It's a vague generalization which may or may not be true. Which experts? Can you cite statistical studies or valid polls that demonstrate this? Unfortunately, even if it is true that most 'experts' by some criteria endorse low-intensity aerobics for fat loss, it does not imply that the claim is actually true. Read the articles and look at the studies cited therein: properly designed high intensity interval training is vastly more effective and efficient than low intensity aerobics. Moreover, the specific fitness adaptations of interval training are very beneficial for Aikido training (by the principle of specificity) which also takes place in intervals.