NHB Fighting and Aikido

I believe one, if trained properly could use their aikido to defend off any attacker. On the streets you would use all of your Aikdio knowledge to defend with the first thought in mind being protect myself and the attacker. However if you are being overwhelmed by an attacker on the streets you are allowed to do whatever you need to defend yourself. There are no rules in fighting for your life. I believe the aikido that I am learning is an amazing form of self defense because on top of physical techniques I am learning how to avoid physical competition all together. However the men in these fighting competitions train in some ways more rigorously than most Aikidoka. They work on there speed and reflexes just as an aikidoka does except they emphasize on how they can use their skills destroy someone in their sport without focusing on ideals of love and harmony. Because of the aiki principles I believe Aikido is a much more effective means of self defense, but in a ring with rules Aikido will not be enough. These men and women are well rounded fighters with backgrounds in many arts ranging from striking to grappling, however none of the champions these days claim to be practicioners of one art. They are all hybrid fighters competing in the sport of mixed martial arts.

Irony Wrote:

Being a 250 lbs ape, I have to say that size does matter... if your aikido is in any way lacking. There are many times that I could muscle out of things when nage is sloppy or careless. I think the size issue is nullified when aikido is done consistantly well, but I'd be afraid to go up against some one bigger than me. Even though at 6'6" and 260 lbs it would be diffucult to find someone to try it on.

If size matters...consider this!

1. The average man weighs 175 lbs.
2. The average woman weighs 115 lbs.

So you are 50% bigger than the average man. The average man is 50% bigger than the average woman.

Does this mean that a female aikidoka couldn't even stand up to a man of average size? Are female aikidoka able to defend themselves? Shouldn't good technique conquer size? My first karate instructor told me:

"A good big man will beat a good little man if all else is equal."

He also said:

"A strong body will beat a weak body. A strong technique will beat a strong body. A strong mind will beat a strong technique."

I am really not trying to be faceitous here. Bringing the thread full circle here,I'm just trying to make a point which only one or two have agreed with throughout this thread.

1. Aikido is an art, but it is a martial art. We learn fighting principles which should be able to be applied to any situation or any attacker. As a couple of posters have echoed here "We are ready for anything."

2. A skilled aikidoka who has devoted years to his art should be able to defend himself against a Mixed Martial Artist who spends most of his time lifting weights and ground fighting.

Am I wrong on these two points? Or is MMA the next super martial art? (Remember when Tae Kwon Do was called Super Karate?)

Respectfully,

Scott in Kansas

Wow...115# is average? At 115#, that is what I always say, but I do think the average woman (at least in the US) is a bit bigger

I think if we are just talking wrestling to the ground, then yes, the average female will not do well against the average male. What if she knows Aikido? Well, she'd still need to be pretty good at it, not great, but good. Partly because if your technique is ineffective, size does matter---big guys in class can often compensate with muscle. Even with good technique, there is again the problem of trying to get an uke who doesn't know ukemi to the ground softly/safely when he is twice your size. You have to experience that to know what it is like. Getting them to the ground is not the problem. It's that safely part that is so tricky. You know, f=ma.

What I would like to think, is that the average sized female Aikidoka, well before her technique got to that level, had matured to a level where she wasn't needing to worry about being in that situation requiring that skill.

"Does this mean that a female aikidoka couldn't even stand up to a man of average size? Are female aikidoka able to defend themselves? Shouldn't good technique conquer size?"

Yes, and that was the point I was trying to make. Is your technique absolutely 100% perfect? No, probably not. Mine isn't either. No one's is. I'm sure we've all have slipups where uke has gotten the better of us. If you performed a good technique on me it would work. Plain and simple. If there is a weakness in your technique my size gives me several advantages towards getting out of it and hurting you in return. My only point was that these UFC guys are probably my size and work out a hell of a lot more than I do (never). While a master aikidoka should have no problem, one mistake would probably end it.

Just my opinion though. Maybe you do have perfect technique! What do I know?

Originally posted by Irony "Does this mean that a female aikidoka couldn't even stand up to a man of average size? Are female aikidoka able to defend themselves? Shouldn't good technique conquer size?" Yes, and that was the point I was trying to make. Is your technique absolutely 100% perfect? No, probably not. Mine isn't either. No one's is. I'm sure we've all have slipups where uke has gotten the better of us. If you performed a good technique on me it would work. Plain and simple. If there is a weakness in your technique my size gives me several advantages towards getting out of it and hurting you in return. My only point was that these UFC guys are probably my size and work out a hell of a lot more than I do (never). While a master aikidoka should have no problem, one mistake would probably end it. Just my opinion though. Maybe you do have perfect technique! What do I know?

I agree with you but I still have my doubts that any master aikidoka could go in and win a UFC using ONLY aikido.

This is a sporting event and money is to be made. Hell winning one of those tournaments will be much more financially rewarding than running a martial arts school... If aikidoka really felt they could win they would enter.

Anyway we are not talking ethics here but technique. Until I see someone executing flowing kotegaeshi, iriminage and shihonage in a UFC or whatever tournament I will not criticise UFC fighters.

Most Aikidokists don't train hard enough to even think about entering a UFC-type of contest. Besides, can they take or deliver strong blows - do they even know if they can? Can they stay on their feet?

Can perfect technique defeat brute strength? Definitely. Do UFC fighters have good technique? Damn right or they wouldn't be there - problem is, they are usually pretty tough guys also.

Can a typical female Aikidokist defeat a typical male? Probably, but not the ones I've seen. Some may have good technique, but if the male really resists (in an unrehearsed manner), the technique usually fails.

Aikido is fun and it can also be very effective. It can also be empty.

Jim23

Originally posted by Jim23 Some may have good technique, but if the male really resists (in an unrehearsed manner), the technique usually fails.

One of my teachers always resists, and he's bloody strong, and it's frustrating, and then he finally gets me to do it properly and it feels like he's stopped resisting and let me do it, but he hasn't. What I'm saying is there is a point where resistance is futile.

I can't even come close to getting a shihonage on him, though.

andrew

Most of you seem to be saying something like this...

If your aikido technique isn't perfect, a stronger opponent will usually defeat you.

Doesn't this make aikido a "weak" martial art?

I am also trained in karate and I've dealt with larger opponents without much trouble (in actual street defense situations) using very simple karate techniques.

Are aikido techniques too complex and too difficult to execute to be an effective self defense against a larger/stronger opponent?

Respectfully,

Scott in Kansas

No, Scott, with the exception of Jim, who usually is saying Aikido does not work, the rest of us are saying it must be decent technique for 100 pounds to control 200 pounds without 200 pounds getting hurt. My technique is terrible and I'm a beginner, but 200 pounds will hit the ground. But not necessarily without damage. Fortunately, my focus is not, never has been on being attacked, so unlike most on this thread I don't really care how many attackers I can beat. I also think Aikido, even at the level I am now, will keep me from needing to worry about how many I can beat.

100 pounds hitting 200 pounds, as in karate, would need to be prettry darn good I think to make a difference.

As for the person who felt an instructor would enter competition if he thought he could win, rather than teach…all of my instructors taught for free, fees were for dojo upkeep only. The ones at my university club were paid by the university to teach four classes a week, and donated that money back to the club to use for seminars. Money is not what it is about.

I think the question should not be 'could we win' because other than in a mine-is-BIGGER way who cares, but 'why would we even want to'.

Colleen,

I haven't said that aikido doesn't work - not for quite a while anyway.

I feel the same way about karate, boxing, wrestling, etc. also (men vs. women).

Men have superior upperbody strength that many women seem to forget about (or choose to play down in a forum like this).

When I first started training, I found women - and many men - had major problems handling me, and I wasn't trying to be difficult, I just didn't know what I was supposed to do (I'm average height and weight, but quite strong and damn good looking ).

I'm not saying that women can't be effective in self-defence situations, but they need to be realistic as to what they can do to a larger, stronger male.

Of course, there are always exceptions out there.

Jim23

Originally posted by Jim23 I'm not saying that women can't be effective in self-defence situations, but they need to be realistic as to what they can do to a larger, stronger male. Jim23

I am stunned that Jim23 said this.
He is married isn't he?
It's not all physical. (Aikido/real life)

Originally posted by Scott_in_Kansas Most of you seem to be saying something like this... If your aikido technique isn't perfect, a stronger opponent will usually defeat you.

Ahhm... I think it's more meant that most people don't train to deal with that kind of aggression that you'd find in, for instance, a fight. (cough) Or indeed train enough. I believe it's mainly down to your mental state.

Aikido techniques are actually awfully awfully simple, but that doesn't make them simple to carry out. I know how to make a mess out of somebody and I know how to gently disable them, but I wouldn't bet on myself not wincing and making an arse of it when somebody attacked me.

look at some of the clips on
http://www.geocities.com/rosentalyoav/
and make up your own maind anyhow. Some of the clips (especially some of the ones with Christian Tissier) are pretty rough stuff, but they're also very simple and direct.
andrew

Originally posted by andrew Ahhm... I think it's more meant that most people don't train to deal with that kind of aggression that you'd find in, for instance, a fight. (cough) Or indeed train enough. I believe it's mainly down to your mental state. Aikido techniques are actually awfully awfully simple, but that doesn't make them simple to carry out. I know how to make a mess out of somebody and I know how to gently disable them, but I wouldn't bet on myself not wincing and making an arse of it when somebody attacked me. look at some of the clips on http://www.geocities.com/rosentalyoav/ and make up your own maind anyhow. Some of the clips (especially some of the ones with Christian Tissier) are pretty rough stuff, but they're also very simple and direct. andrew

His aikido is good but can he do those techniques in a UFC...

JIM23: When I first started training, I found women - and many men - had major problems handling me, and I wasn't trying to be difficult, I just didn't know what I was supposed to do (I'm average height and weight, but quite strong and damn good looking ). I'm not saying that women can't be effective in self-defence situations, but they need to be realistic as to what they can do to a larger, stronger male.---

CHRIS: I had the same experience when I first started (and chances are I'm even bigger than you) but I soon realized that it wasn't that they couldn't throw me, but I had horrible ukemi at the time and I probably would have limped home and never come back. Also we train as beginners from static (most of the time) and without the momentum to work with it's doubtful that the technique would work in those conditions. (No 100 pound person, man or woman, can throw a 200 pound one with pure upper body strength)

My chief instructor is a woman and she can throw me around with absolutely no problem. I'm more than twice her size. Literally. She used to have a problem doing koshinages on me, but now that I know the ukemi it's no real problem. She's still an ikkyu, too. This proves to me that size, if the technique is done correctly, does not matter. If she does make a mistake, yes, I could overpower her. But when she doesn't... it still hurts sometimes. What she can do to me is very realistic.

You're betraying your usual tag line, Jim23. Generalizations.....

You're betraying your usual tag line, Jim23. Generalizations.....

Ha!

That's why I said that there are exceptions out there.

Anyway, although I understand what you're saying, I still don't agree. I understand about committed attacks, momentum, good ukemi and all that.

If I were to really (I mean really) strike or give a (really) strong grip, nine times out of ten, the technique would fail. If I play along, well, things would be different, and that's fine for training.

Jim23

That's cool that you think so. Just don't be surprised if one day you're working with a 110 lbs female, decide to resist and find yourself headfirst in a corner, moaning.

Remember that even though resisting may make the technique you're working on impossible, it also opens a window for a completely different one. You can blend with resistance too!

Originally posted by Scott_in_Kansas Most of you seem to be saying something like this... If your aikido technique isn't perfect, a stronger opponent will usually defeat you.

Let's not forget the "ki" in aikido. I'd agree more to 'if your ki doesn't flow, a stronger opponent will usually defeat you.' Are there anybody else from ki society here?

My sensei loves big students. The bigger they are, the better because they're easier to defeat if we use ki properly.

About 'how it's hard to grab a sweaty hand or people not wearing gi'. We are taught to hold opponent's hand not with strength, but with ki, which is more effective, especially for small people like me. We don't even grab. I've seen techniques where you don't even have to hold the opponent's hand.

Originally posted by Jim23 I'm not saying that women can't be effective in self-defence situations, but they need to be realistic as to what they can do to a larger, stronger male.

I'm a small female who sometimes get frustrated facing bigger male opponent. I can't even do ikyo on them. And then my sensei told me, 'since you are small, you might want to use other more efective technique.' Well there's a prety realistic solution. Not all techniques work on all people. But i'm pretty realistic to what i can do to a larger, stronger male. If i want to i can just kick their b**ls.

I've trained in Aikido (and judo and taekwondo) very informally for only a year, so I personally don't have the experience to comment on these boards very educatedly. My instructor, however, is a very skilled marial artist. Along with teaching me and my brother privately, he also takes lessons himself in a few other arts. He's come into the habit of sparring with his own instructors often, one an accomplished and respected Kung Fu, Taekwondo, and Karate artist, and the other a black belt in Judo. He holds no belt in Aikido that I know of (maybe he's not telling me, that sounds like him!). He was trained informally himself, in that his training included few traditionalities (for lack of a better word) and little more than the actual combat skills. Anyway, to the point, using his aikido alone, he consistently defeats a Kung Fu master, who then switches to a black-belt-holding Taekwondo artist, and is defeated again. To top off the evening, the Judo black-belt enters the ring, and is defeated just as consistently. So far, my instructor has suffered one side-kick to the shoulder, one pin, and one throw in a year of weekly spars. His opponents have else been defeated at every spar. This goes to show that even an aikido artist that hasn't even obtained the highest levels can pose a threat to the most skilled of Martial Artists.

Kelly Cook

P.S. I'm rather unfamiliar with common termonologies and phrases and customs of a 'normal' dojo. My lessons, as I said before, were private lessons in an upstairs concert hall given by an employee of my father (he left his Dojo to become a youth minister, and needed a weekly job). When I say informal, I mean extremely informal. So, basically, forgive my ignorance.

Hello Everyone,

I am still new to aikido. I am on my 7th lesson so far and I love it. What I am hearing hear sounds to me like self-doubt or doubt of the art of Aikido. If you guys doubt the art so much for it's self-defense aspects, why is there even a disscusion going on here? Now I understand studying Aikido to learn more about yourself and to gain a higher spiritual understanding...this is why I started. I guess I am confused at this whole topic.

I have studied BJJ and with what little I have seen of Aikido, I think that an Aikidoist whould have very litte problem handling a ground fighter. Isn't the whole concept of Aikido to avoid confrontation and if you cannot to deal with it in a manner that brings harmony and peace?

Ex: A BJJ practicioner trys to grab an aikidoist legs by lunging foward with both hands out to grab the aikidoist around his legs. Seems to me there are many, many things the aikidoist can do to the grappler. This is just my oppinion from what I know about both martial arts. I now have doubts about lunging at someone in fear of winding up on my back or being thrown 25ft across the room. If I knew the person attacking me only had BJJ exp or was some sort of wrestler..no matter his size I fell more than confident now with my little exp in Aikido to be able to handle myself. Perhaps this comes from my insight to what a grappler is and is not capable of doing in certain situations. Just my humble oppinion.

If applied correctly, even a fair trained aikidoka can handle most situations.

Peace and Harmony to all!

Originally posted by Jim23 Ha! If I were to really (I mean really) strike or give a (really) strong grip, nine times out of ten, the technique would fail. If I play along, well, things would be different, and that's fine for training. Jim23

It's when they do that to you, Jim23, that you find out if your technique works.

If you just play with each other, then you all deserve what you get

IMHO

True.

Just recently, I was working (playing?) with a rather large, strong uke - a beast of a human, actually. Whenever he resisted - which was most of the time - I found him very difficult to handle. Not impossible, but very difficult.

Having said that, I actually find it more frustrating when I have an easy uke. Give me the challenge anytime, as I will eventually overcome it. Otherwise I'm just fooling myself.

You're getting pretty good with those italics Mark.

Jim23

Originally posted by ranZ I'm a small female who sometimes get frustrated facing bigger male opponent. I can't even do ikyo on them. And then my sensei told me, 'since you are small, you might want to use other more efective technique.' Well there's a prety realistic solution. Not all techniques work on all people. But i'm pretty realistic to what i can do to a larger, stronger male. If i want to i can just kick their b**ls.

tst... tsk...

Ran-chan... you know that's not the way we are taught...

hwahaha... what da heck r u doin here :P
joinin' the forces e.
yeah.. that special attack move only to be used in *panic mode*!

Maybe Aikido actually is a weak art. It is pretty useless for a long time, until a practicioner has understood some of the principles.

But maybe that weakness is actually it's ultimate strength. If it is useless until it's understood, maybe what it has to teach is actually pretty deep.

If strength doesn't make it work, maybe once it's understood, the strength of the principle transcends strength and fitness or size.

At that point, I think it's a fantastically strong art.

It seems worth considering anyway.

There's a person on aikiweb (name escapes me at the moment) whose signature says "All generalizations are false" and I think it really holds true to this thread.

Does it? The statement negates itself.