Pain in Aikido

[Censored] I'm sure he did mean it...
And I know what he means, too.

Originally posted by Jim23 What I find funny about this is that, quite often, (the bully) nage wouldn't be able to hurt uke under normal circumstances -- if he didn't give himself fully.

You might want to read Ellis Amdur's "Dueling with O'Sensei." He goes into this with some depth in the book.

Originally posted by Jim23 Although I've never experienced it myself (yet), I've seen nage, with a gleam in their eye, inflict a little too much pain on uke.

Well last night I was uke and Shihan had that glint in his eye - he enjoyed my discomfort a little bit too much. It was what the Aikikai folks call sankyo and although the pain was incredible, there was no damage and a lesson was learnt - don't let Shihan near you.

Seriously though the correct application of techniques like sankyo or nikkyo are often quite painful. It is not the pain which makes them correct but improperly applied they are not painful. Pain as indicator.

Under stress many people feel less or no pain. It is a mistake to rely on pain to get the job done but in my experience, reinforced by what happened last night, pain or no, a correctly appied controlling technique will work since they in effect lock up and control the joint.

Originally posted by PeterR but improperly applied they are not painful. Pain as indicator.

That's very untrue in the middle of an otherwise good post. Bad, useless technique can frequently cause pain.

andrew

That's very untrue in the middle of an otherwise good post. Bad, useless technique can frequently cause pain.

And with enough pain, you can end almost any fight, so such technique is hardly useless.

P.S. I already know true Aikidoka will never be involved in a fight, no need to remind me!

Originally posted by andrew That's very untrue in the middle of an otherwise good post. Bad, useless technique can frequently cause pain.

I actually stewed over that line for a bit before posting it because generally I agree with your retort. The thing is that an improperly applied Nikkyo and Sankyo (we Shodokan types call it something else) can be neutralized quite easily by shifting the body only slightly. The more correct the application the less easy it is to do so. Correct form extends beyond perfect kihon, which varies a lot between styles, and pain in my mind is a great indicator that you are having the techniques applied to you correctly.

Pain appears to be neccessary in those dojos which practice against resistance ("hard" aikido). It does often seem unneccessary, yet how useful is it to practice the same movement repetitively with a "Dynamic" cooperative partner when a resisting partner will demonstrate the flaws in your technique?

This is a quandary I continue to struggle with. Is it better to practice dynamically and hope that after years of training one's technique will be correct or to have a resisting partner and know that the technique works but become stodgy and forceful in one's aikido?

Hi David,

I've put a new thread in teaching as regards this - my views on it.

Ian

Originally posted by PeterR Seriously though the correct application of techniques like sankyo or nikkyo are often quite painful. It is not the pain which makes them correct but improperly applied they are not painful. Pain as indicator. Under stress many people feel less or no pain. It is a mistake to rely on pain to get the job done but in my experience, reinforced by what happened last night, pain or no, a correctly appied controlling technique will work since they in effect lock up and control the joint.

Pain.

I presently have a pretty sore shoulder from Nikajo (can live with it) and two (very) sore and (very) swollen forearms from Yonkajo.

The extra pressure was unecessary and I don't understand what it proves.

If something like that happened in a real fight, I really wouldn't care much (until the next day), but in ongoing training ... ?

Although I'm very impressed that they did/do hurt, if this rubbish continues, I'll be looking at another MA (or club). I don't plan on having any long-term damage done to me.

Jim23

Originally posted by Jim23 Pain. Although I'm very impressed that they did/do hurt, if this rubbish continues, I'll be looking at another MA (or club). I don't plan on having any long-term damage done to me. Jim23

A fair point Jim, but my own view is that these moves are actually GOOD for the body, over a longer period. Try out as many clubs as you like, though...

I'm not sure if I follow you Mark. Do you mean that the extra pressure/damage is good for the body in the long term? My wrists look like someone with severe carpal tunnel syndrome, I don't see how that can be good.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not upset by the pain (potential damage, if this happens repeatedly, yes), it's the fact that the training is co-operative - I allowed it be done to me. And I probably will next class.

Jim23

Yeah, I pretty much meant that...
However, if a club/person is giving you a hard time... that's different.
Then again, I've read your posts... you do have a knack of annoying people

In real life, I'm a very nice person.

Jim23

A quick clarification.

My little story aside - the cranking of techniques just because you can is definately frowned upon in the dojo. Shihan was demonstrating to me the error of my technique - what the difference is. During the course of last nights training I put a full pin on one of my kohei so he could understand the true nature - after that we practiced much softer. No need to cause damge or unnecessary pain.

Secondly - we do become desensitized to pain both physically and mentally. I can take yonkyo (we call it kime) without too much trouble now as opposed to when I first started.

Originally posted by Jim23 Pain. I presently have a pretty sore shoulder from Nikajo (can live with it) and two (very) sore and (very) swollen forearms from Yonkajo. The extra pressure was unecessary and I don't understand what it proves. If something like that happened in a real fight, I really wouldn't care much (until the next day), but in ongoing training ... ? Although I'm very impressed that they did/do hurt, if this rubbish continues, I'll be looking at another MA (or club). I don't plan on having any long-term damage done to me. Jim23

We certainly want to become "sensitized" to the pain in all waza. Otherwise, we won't know where and when to apply counters. In kata practice, I teach my students to lock the joints to the point of kime (which includes some "discomfort" to be sure) and do this in such a way that uke has NO ROOM for movement without hurting themselves. We quickly learn where this is and no injuries occur.

However, in randori geiko, I will not allow anyone to even get to kime (the decisive point in a lock) with me. If they do, it's because they did something right and there was absolutely no way (in my experience at that point!) that I could have stopped them.

Letting someone continue to cause pain that leads to lots of swelling and bruising quickly destroys your ability to practice properly together, in my opinion. That leads to a complete breakdown in trust.

There are places where it's okay to trade off hurting each other for fun. It shouldn't be in the dojo.

Originally posted by Jim23 I presently have a pretty sore shoulder from Nikajo (can live with it) and two (very) sore and (very) swollen forearms from Yonkajo.

Jim, could you clarify a bit more on what happened. I'm a bit puzzled by getting a shoulder tweaked in nikyo and have all these pictures in my head of what happened. None of which are probably right.

Originally posted by Chuck Clark Letting someone continue to cause pain that leads to lots of swelling and bruising quickly destroys your ability to practice properly together, in my opinion. That leads to a complete breakdown in trust. There are places where it's okay to trade off hurting each other for fun. It shouldn't be in the dojo.

That's for sure.

I'm actually considering looking at another club tonight because of it - don't really want to wimp out though.

I have to stress that's it's not the pain or even the swelling that concerns me - these things happen. It's the thought of this happening on an ongoing basis, causing real long-term injury. It's been two days and my forearms (palm side) are very swollen, lumpy and bruised (difficult to bend the thumb back). The funny thing is that I was very gentle with the person who caused this when they were uke.

Not sure what I'll do yet.

Jim23

Originally posted by Erik Jim, could you clarify a bit more on what happened. I'm a bit puzzled by getting a shoulder tweaked in nikyo and have all these pictures in my head of what happened. None of which are probably right.

Erik, it was when the lock was applied (palm face up, shoulder locked) after being brought to the floor. That doesn't feel that sore now. It's really the wrists/forearms.

I think I'm becoming a wimp.

Jim23

Jim, another thought.
In aikido, when people think you are ready to move 'up' a level, they will (WILL) hurt you, to see 'if you can take it' at that level.
Now...THAT can hurt.
Take your time.

Originally posted by Jim23 Erik, it was when the lock was applied (palm face up, shoulder locked) after being brought to the floor. That doesn't feel that sore now. It's really the wrists/forearms. I think I'm becoming a wimp. Jim23

Jim, in the world I inhabit, that is called bullshit.

You are pinned, on the ground and no longer a threat if my pin is competent. Pain is meaningless at this point because if done correctly it doesn't matter. People seem to think they need pain to prove the pin. The proof is in the fact that they can't get up to get you again. This pin is one of those in my opinion.

There are a couple of good reasons pain happens but most aren't. Most commonly it's skill level or dominance. If it's a dominance/power thing I'd give a lot of thought to finding a new home.

Now, if you are down on the ground resisting nage and nage is less skilled than they might be then I'd be prepared to expect pain. Otherwise I'd go with it, tap loudly and quickly and live to roll another day.

Originally posted by Erik Jim, in the world I inhabit, that is called bullshit. You are pinned, on the ground and no longer a threat if my pin is competent. Pain is meaningless at this point because if done correctly it doesn't matter. People seem to think they need pain to prove the pin. The proof is in the fact that they can't get up to get you again. This pin is one of those in my opinion. There are a couple of good reasons pain happens but most aren't. Most commonly it's skill level or dominance. If it's a dominance/power thing I'd give a lot of thought to finding a new home. Now, if you are down on the ground resisting nage and nage is less skilled than they might be then I'd be prepared to expect pain. Otherwise I'd go with it, tap loudly and quickly and live to roll another day.

Erik,

Um ... it was applied by one of my senseis. I think he was trying to see just how tough I was - I actually tapped before the extra pressure was applied.

It's the wrist/forearm thing that got me thinking. Although I know I'll recover, what concerns me is that he knew what he was doing and the potential damage he was causing.

Maybe it was to show me just how effective his aikido was, or perhaps it just made his nipples hard.

Maybe it's all in my head.

Jim23

Originally posted by Jim23 Erik, Um ... it was applied by one of my senseis. I think he was trying to see just how tough I was - I actually tapped before the extra pressure was applied. It's the wrist/forearm thing that got me thinking. Although I know I'll recover, what concerns me is that he knew what he was doing and the potential damage he was causing. Maybe it was to show me just how effective his aikido was, or perhaps it just made his nipples hard. Maybe it's all in my head. Jim23

One of my sempai, in his younger less knowledgeable days, sent a client of his to a dojo in another city. He thought Aikido was Aikido was Aikido. His client comes back to him and says that the first thing the instructor said was "Aikido is pain. You must learn to deal with pain." Needless to say, the client ran out the door.

Of course, I've read a similar thing from the first Doshu as well but I'm fairly certain the context was different. Anyways, some folks really think it needs to hurt and be forceful to work.

PS: I'm in the process of sending you a private message. I think you find it via. your control panel.

Well, just to follow up ... I ended up going back to the same club again for yet another night of training.

I had a chance to have a little chat with the "offending party" and we kissed and made up before class - which was good (the class that is).

I think the next time someone deliberately inflicts execessive pain/damage, my response will be a little different than it was before though.

Jim23

I think some mention has to be about uke, and uke's role in avoiding pain, since good ukemi will get you out of just about any pain nage is inflicting. Sometimes we are too intent on resisting (sure that nage doesn't have it, and going to prove it)---but surprise, they do indeed have it, and now uke is behind the power curve in moving. Sometimes, even already knowing the technique that is about to be applied, uke decides to tap rather that move or lose their balance(i.e., won't get up on their toes/move for sankyo, won't get down to the ground/move close for nikyo, etc.)--they think as uke the only thing they need to move is their free hand against their thigh. Not only does this hinder nage's training, but it does nothing to improve uke's poor ukemi---what if you are in a situation where tapping does not work? I am amazed at the number of ukes who do not know the correct way to move to take off the pressure of a joint locking technique, it's like they view their role as uke as just marking time until they get to do the technique. What a waste.