Video definitions, "Aiki" and other terms.

Mike Sigman wrote: So how do you redirect while "sinking your ki"?

Like this http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/attach...9&d=1215185239 A push received in shear squishes the body down along a spiral of compression (illustrated in the isolated element in the diagram with the two arrows head to head) while extending it along the 90 degree spiral going the other way (illustrated by the two arrows tail to tail) Compression in one shear stress axis one is relieved by extension in the other -- and vice versa. Both Ikeda and Gleason are following these lines in forms exaggerated enough to see clearly.

Mike Sigman wrote: Then how do you move dynamically while doing those things?

Try releasing a cable held in tension or a sprung column in compression -- like whips and chains, brother ... like udefuri.

Greg Steckel wrote: Fair enough statement, but to present an extend ki process is not that easy, it just is not that black and white of a description since it is very subjective within the mental realm - I mean, just how do you explain to someone in detail the process on how you think. With that said, I will try to elaborate as best I can. Since I use Tohei's model, I first visualize ki as a substance and try to see it in my mind's eye where it exists within my body as well as external to my body. Since the mind can control ki, the next step is to use mental intent to actually move and project ki internally as well as externally; again it is important to actually visualize this happening when doing it. Of course, you have to follow Tohei's other principles of Mind and Body Coordination at the same time. This is basically the mental process I follow when extending ki as taught by Tohei. Now as far as that actually being the way everything is working within the definitions of western physics? I have no clue nor I am qualified to even speculate to any deep extent. All I know is that I have had positive physical and verbal feedback during in person exchanges with people that had no idea I was extending ki as taught by Tohei - all they thought was that I was using mental intent in the exercises since that was the term used in those exercises. So, it appears that extend ki is synonymous with mental intent in this case; which now leads to the question: "How do you and others define and use mental intent?"

Just to elaborate some on this. First, I am not stating that Tohei's approach to Ki is absolutely correct - all I am saying is that to follow Tohei's model, you have to follow Tohei's vision of ki to make his model work. I have no idea that ki is truly a substance nor can I say for sure that it is not - but it is what makes his model work to some extent. Now is there other stuff going on here? Yes, I believe there is, but I have less experience in that area so that is why I am taking Tohei's model to the next step by training with Dan. What I am convinced of is that there is more mental aspects to this that is crucial in making IS/IP work - and that is where the mental intent is used to internally move these energies around in ways that are not so obvious simply based on observation of external structures. I think someone mentioned elsewhere that the mind tricks the body in routing energies via alternative paths than what would normally occur based on normal body conditioning - therefore, the training focus on new body conditioning that is not focused on the normal muscular path. In summary, I believe the main aspects of Tohei's approach that are important is the focus on relaxation and the objective of coordinating the mind and body to function as one.

Greg

David Skaggs wrote: The added tension in the fascia increases its structural integrity. The force of Tamua's push is transmitted along this fascia line to the ground.

That would put the fascia in compression, not tension, so not quite.

Robert M Watson Jr wrote: That would put the fascia in compression, not tension, so not quite.

Weeeeelllll -- actually to speak up for David here -- though I don't agree with all of his thesis -- the compression of the body does result in tension in the ligaments and other connective tissue -- healthy bones and connective tissues actually do have some aspects of the tensegrity that David analogizes, though not as perfectly or as ideally as I think he is trying to apply it.

Within limits, the point is that the compression of a live body provokes simultaneous compression and tension in different elements, which may be useful in these terms. In my terms the coincidence of tension and compression in the same structural member define a shear.

Essentially, a pure tensegrity structure eliminates or minimizes internal shears by isolating axial loads into pure tension or compression. In a true tensegrity structure -- there is no continuous compression load path to the ground (nor a continuous tension load path, if suspended from a support). For this reason the body is not an ideal tensegrity structure -- it has sub-elements that use some tensegrity -- but these are are composed into larger load members, which do not use that principle. Also in ordinary structure -- like a marshmallow if you squish it vertically it extends laterally by some proportion -- a positive Poisson ratio -- and this is a result of internal shear. A tensegrity structure has no internal shears so it collapses or expands under stress uniformly in all axes -- a Poisson ratio of -1. Very few materials or structures do that, and the body does not do that, either.

Limbs can also furl and unfurl as well as extend and retract by longitudinal torques in ways that are not muscle-bone lever-actuated -- but are not really symmetric in action like tensegrity, either -- the Japanese describe this action by the word asagao -- A relict of ancestral mollusc movement, if you will, like octopus arms.

I think you guys are shooting at imaginary ducks. There are a number of people crashing on the shoals when they go after the "fascia" thing. Don't join them. Stick to "aiki".

FWIW

Mike Sigman

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction". - Albert Einstein

From, "The Intelligent Body" The Sutherland Cranial College

http://www.intelligentbody.org.uk/edavies.php

Dr Stephen Levin took this thinking one step further, maintaining that the body "is" a tensegrity structure, with tension provided by a matrix of connective tissues - ligaments, muscles, blood vessels, nerves and fascia (in sheets, making compartments), giving strength, integrity and pre-stress. Compression is provided by the bones and incompressible fluids in compartments. The bones act like spacers, providing the divergent forces needed to hold the spaces open. He sees the body as "A soft tissue entity, with local bony spacers, rather than a hard tissue entity with soft tissue motor units".

Muscles induce motion and help maintain the pre-stress which we call "tone". When muscles shorten, they also expand width-wise, which puts more tension on the fascial/tensional element, increasing stability. We can deliberately increase tone by contracting muscles, increasing pre-stress before lifting heavy objects. Water in its structured form contributes to tone. Enclosed in fascial compartments, it provides shock-absorption and resists deformation. The fact that joint facets cannot be forced into contact in live subjects is compatible with what we know about the properties of synovial fluid, alternating in state between sol and gel. Viscosity determines the rate at which fluid responds to motion demands and how it performs its role in the tensegrity matrix. Levin also maintains that ligaments act like rubber bands, their elastic rebound contributing to the "spring" in our joints, thus also acting as"movers", e.g. in the foot and knee when walking.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12855

Mike Sigman wrote: ....Roughly speaking, the strength from the ground goes through the bones (ki of Earth) and the "connective", "down-pulling" strength (ki of Heaven) goes through the fascia/ki arrangement (which is more complex than that simple statement implies).

David

Phi Trong wrote: if you freeze the play of this video at around 12 sec mark, you will see Ikeda sensei on a one-legged stand with his structure and position completely blown http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaLBx...eature=related so for folks who think aiki is structure, you might want to revise that thinking. btw, i have seen him, Ikeda sensei, with my own eyes did that same stunt with two big ukes hold on to him.

What exactly do you think is happening? How would you gauge the level of resistance by the uke? Their intention?

Mike Sigman wrote: Ikeda uses a slight "add forces to more than zero in a bad direction for Uke" that causes uke to off-balance and drop. That is "aiki".

I think this is a good example of how video can help us define these concepts.

Greg Steckel wrote: However, I think the main point here is to realize that there is more going on that just the physical body alignments to this push and that there is an equally important mental part that not too many get into with these posts about Aiki IS/IP, or as I call it, Stuff

I happen to strongly agree with this.

This raises the following questions.

Why doesn't this mental aspect extend to pre-physical contact?

If it does, wouldn't that infinitely expand aiki's usefulness? (And put it more in line with Morihei's philosophy, the record we have of him and his art, and the realities of the sword?)

Finally, why is this not seriously addressed in any discussions about "aiki"?

Michael Varin wrote: This raises the following questions. Why doesn't this mental aspect extend to pre-physical contact? If it does, wouldn't that infinitely expand aiki's usefulness? (And put it more in line with Morihei's philosophy, the record we have of him and his art, and the realities of the sword?) Finally, why is this not seriously addressed in any discussions about "aiki"?

I don't think there's any point in seriously addressing this until a large number of people have sufficient skill in the physical contact kind of aiki. (I include myself in the not sufficiently skilled group, btw.) Main reason is that the pre-physical stuff is even easier to 'fake' with different means than the physical stuff.

p.s.: I'm not sure I'd want to call the pre-physical stuff aiki, but that's a different matter. Morihei probably would call it aiki.

Michael Varin wrote: What exactly do you think is happening? How would you gauge the level of resistance by the uke? Their intention?

good question. since i can't duplicate his feat (maybe), i don't have much. although, i would said he used the energy that uke employed to hold him up and redirect it somewhere else, in this case, up. in the case of two ukes (each was bigger than him), he sent them to the weak spots in front or back. resistance and intention by uke? mostly staying in one place and holding him up which is what he told them to do. he liked to play with big ukes, methink, just to prove the point of it's not about muscling or normal aikido stuffs.

Michael Varin wrote: Why doesn't this mental aspect extend to pre-physical contact?

if you look at Ikeda video, there are lots of mental stuffs happened before contact. you can see it that his ukes went somewhere else immediately at the contact point in time. he's already setup where they need to go before contact made. this is the next level of aiki. he was not reactive.

Michael Varin wrote: This raises the following questions. Why doesn't this mental aspect extend to pre-physical contact? If it does, wouldn't that infinitely expand aiki's usefulness? (And put it more in line with Morihei's philosophy, the record we have of him and his art, and the realities of the sword?) Finally, why is this not seriously addressed in any discussions about "aiki"?

Very good question! - if you consider the amount of push back you get when asking for a video of the internal physical stuff, just think of what you would get if you asked these folks to provide a video of what is going on inside their mind I find that vision somewhat frightening

Seriously, your post brings out some very good points.

Greg

Greg Steckel wrote: just think of what you would get if you asked these folks to provide a video of what is going on inside their mind I find that vision somewhat frightening Greg

god forbid, i don't want to know what going on inside of my head. it's bad enough i have to live with the bastard, don't want to know how he think.

make this fight scene more interesting, don't you think?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Peh7...elated#t=2m23s

Phi Truong wrote: make this fight scene more interesting, don't you think? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Peh7...elated#t=2m23s

yeah, that is how the 'Stuff' is done!

Robert M Watson Jr wrote: That would put the fascia in compression, not tension, so not quite.

My apologies. My post was made at around 4 am after more than 24 hrs without sleep and I had trouble focusing.

By Tohei curving his wrist it increases the tension in the fascia. In a tensegrity structure when the tension elements increase in tension this increases the compression in the compression elements, the bones. The increase compression in the bones increases the structural integrity of the bones allowing them to receive stronger loads of force.

Tamura's push is transmitted along this fascia line through the bones associated with the fascia line to the ground, not the actual fascia line.

The added force of Tamura's push increased the compression of the bones adding to their strength.

In addition Tohei curving his wrist makes it harder for Tamaru to push horizontally than if Tohei's wrist was straight.

Try it and see.

David

David:

The man in the image with his bent wrist was the late Iwao Tamura, not Koichi Tohei. Tohei is not in the image.

I do not know who the woman is.

This notion of the bent wrist increasing the tension path on a facial line is not the way to go. It might help you at the very beginning stages "feel" certain things (some well known internal guys taught something along that path with some detailed explanations why) but you don't "live" there, it was a training tool. The involvement of fascia is -let's say- a more "fuller" understanding than that "tension path" idea. So overall, the bent wrist is sort of meaningless; neither here nor there as you move along. Looking at these "tests" you can miss the point. What if he was "contacted" on his forearm, or shoulder, or rib cage, or head? Were he to be developed enough, the contact point becomes meaningless and the freedom of movement while maintaining that, remains absolute. There is no "rooting on a single foot" or needing to "do" things to the other guy, or "pre-empt" the contact with the notion of blending with it before it hits you.

In fighting under pressure (with weapons or without) you are much better off to sustain balance and pressure in yourself and sustaining that while in motion. It's like being balanced at a "zero" point with all energy coming-in/while going-out. In that held state you have a far greater chance of moving under external pressure without resorting to muscling through. Done correctly you aren't loading on them you're just moving through them, or drawing them -till they fall, disconnect, or re-engage to attack again. In sparring there is no local tension or local sticking point whether it is hitting, kicking, or throwing. Done well, it can lead to some very interesting uses that create quite effective-even stunning-ways to handle people trying to hit and throw you in ways most have never seen or even thought were possible. The reason for that is that this type of movement is simply alien to what they can currently do, so their bodies and their minds-reject it.

Anyway, since the ability to make change can be done externally (and anyone can do it) people equate everything to what they know and dismiss the rest. And why not? The ability to make change internally and capture center on contact is rare (percentagewise) in the martial arts so most have never felt it. To make change with IP/ aiki under certain, limited pressures in movement (kata, push hands)- is rarer still. To see it done against experience fight pressure at full speed.....is very hard to find. People who can pull that off with IP/Aiki are very rare.

So, again- the greater chance of producing aiki on contact with an opponent in freestyle is not by pre-empitve movement and timing. It is better to hold aiki in yourself. With that, any contact point will have an inherent negative/positive aspect instantly that you are able to absorb, move with, or around, and manipulate without thinking about much at all-it just happens. Thus all the "preemptive" school of thought takes on a whole new meaning.

Too many times you see all levels of martial arts expressed as energy out (unsupported) or energy-in and evading -while unsupported as well. It makes entering on these "martial artists" relatively easy to do, and their entering in on you damn difficult. That is not a condition I wish to change in the vast majority of those who think they "get" high level martial arts or even aiki-when all they are really doing is jujutsu. Sometimes it is VERY good jujutsu, but that's all it is. I'd rather leave them believing they got it, than endlessly debate it- it tends to make enemies among people who have never even met.
Cheers
Dan

FWIW that test pictured is a fairly test for ki development, at least at where I've trained. Fascia and all that is interesting to talk/think about, but really, the wrist bending, etc. isn't a major big deal. Sometimes the test is done as pictured, other times you extend your arm (making sure you extend enough so you don't "cheat" by resting your elbow against your torso) and let them grab your wrist and push. The idea is to start feel flat on the ground. The lifting of the leg should be done with no apparent change in nage's posture/position/etc. When you do it with someone who is fairly good at it what you notice is that when you grab and start to push nothing changes. Meaning uke doesn't feel things compressing and engaging -- nage is engaged *already* before the moment of contact. The same is true if uke lets go at any point -- nage shouldn't change.

Just to think about what I feel inside when we do this I'd have to agree with what I think is Dan's discussion of a sort of internal balanced pressure feeling. You feel almost like you're "cast in resin" (to borrow something from someone else yet again). I find it difficult to do if I focus too much on doing too much. I have to just "be" in the right state of extension and control.

Now all the talk about structure, alignment, etc. I have to make the observation that having all those things is a very good thing. And certainly make it easier. Timing too. All those things are really good things. But I'm not so sure they're sufficient to explain what's really happening because there are things going on inside the body to make it happen. At first (for me at least) I fought constantly to regain/control/whatever. It was difficult. But over time you start to get better at simply "being" in the right state. Our late sensei changed the Ki Society principle of "Relax Completely" to "Controlled Relaxation" because (in part) he felt relax completely wasn't really accurate and often gave people the wrong idea. The "controlled" part is critical. You're not "flexing" and tightening muscles to "react" to things, just maintaining some degree of control while "extending ki". So there is extension along with relaxation but all in a controlled fashion...

But now I'm rambling around in circles... So I'll go back to work since I find this stuff remarkably difficult to discuss in this context.

So just fwiw from my own meager experience.

Just noticed something from my post above.

First sentence *should* read... "FWIW that test pictured is a fairly common test for ki development, ..."

Keith Larman wrote: FWIW that test pictured is a fairly test for ki development, at least at where I've trained. Fascia and all that is interesting to talk/think about, but really, the wrist bending, etc. isn't a major big deal. Sometimes the test is done as pictured, other times you extend your arm (making sure you extend enough so you don't "cheat" by resting your elbow against your torso) and let them grab your wrist and push. The idea is to start feel flat on the ground. The lifting of the leg should be done with no apparent change in nage's posture/position/etc. When you do it with someone who is fairly good at it what you notice is that when you grab and start to push nothing changes. Meaning uke doesn't feel things compressing and engaging -- nage is engaged *already* before the moment of contact. The same is true if uke lets go at any point -- nage shouldn't change. Just to think about what I feel inside when we do this I'd have to agree with what I think is Dan's discussion of a sort of internal balanced pressure feeling. You feel almost like you're "cast in resin" (to borrow something from someone else yet again). I find it difficult to do if I focus too much on doing too much. I have to just "be" in the right state of extension and control. Now all the talk about structure, alignment, etc. I have to make the observation that having all those things is a very good thing. And certainly make it easier. Timing too. All those things are really good things. But I'm not so sure they're sufficient to explain what's really happening because there are things going on inside the body to make it happen. At first (for me at least) I fought constantly to regain/control/whatever. It was difficult. But over time you start to get better at simply "being" in the right state. Our late sensei changed the Ki Society principle of "Relax Completely" to "Controlled Relaxation" because (in part) he felt relax completely wasn't really accurate and often gave people the wrong idea. The "controlled" part is critical. You're not "flexing" and tightening muscles to "react" to things, just maintaining some degree of control while "extending ki". So there is extension along with relaxation but all in a controlled fashion...

Nice post Keith - I agree, the relax completely principle can come across as misleading and confusing to those with a purely physical analytical perspective - the use of the 'controlled' term does help to define things more appropriately. Just one other comment on the other body principle of Tohei's four principles of Mind and Body Coordination, which is keep weight underside. Although this classified as a principle of the body, I view it as the principle that links the body into the mind since not only are you keeping you weight underside, you essentially do that by mentally dropping your ki with your weight - think about that and I think you will see the connection I am trying to point out.

Greg

Greg Steckel wrote: Nice post Keith - I agree, the relax completely principle can come across as misleading and confusing to those with a purely physical analytical perspective - the use of the 'controlled' term does help to define things more appropriately. Just one other comment on the other body principle of Tohei's four principles of Mind and Body Coordination, which is keep weight underside. Although this classified as a principle of the body, I view it as the principle that links the body into the mind since not only are you keeping you weight underside, you essentially do that by mentally dropping your ki with your weight - think about that and I think you will see the connection I am trying to point out. Greg

FWIW Rod Kobayashi also changed "weight underside" to "settle down" to convey what he felt was important both physically and mentally.

Weight underside
An important distinction is that you do not have to be in stances or upright with that sacrum tuck (something which I avoid)- even upright at all- in order to make weight underside happen. Nor is weight underside always just your own. You can be in impossibly weird positions-including fighting on the ground- and not even using your own body parts for ground like using your opponents leg for your own leg to find ground and use your weight.
Dan

Dan,
Without tucking the sacrum (i.e. tilting the pelvis), how are you generating the stretch of the "backside" of the body against the "frontside?"

Thanks,
Tim

Dan Harden wrote: Weight underside An important distinction is that you do not have to be in stances or upright with that sacrum tuck (something which I avoid)- even upright at all- in order to make weight underside happen. Nor is weight underside always just your own. You can be in impossibly weird positions-including fighting on the ground- and not even using your own body parts for ground like using your opponents leg for your own leg to find ground and use your weight. Dan

Interesting post Dan. For me lately, activating the up and down contradictory force is achieved by slightly tucking in the sacrum or 'tiltlng' the pelvis and slightly pulling up and activating the psoas (the long strips of muscle in the abdomen area). I also interpret your idea of "energy in" as activating the back side by expanding your lower back and tucking in the sacrum, and energy out as activating the front by pulling up with the psoas.

Is this how you achieve the up and down contradictory forces? Also how do you achieve 'weight underside' if not by tucking in your sacrum?

I'm curious about yoru views on this.