Aiki-Boxing

uh, yeah....ouch...

B,
R

You both should get mouthguards and head gear.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: Example: http://tinyurl.com/f6rje [Warning: Rather nasty imagery.]

Been present and seen it happen twice with wakigatame in Tomiki shi'ai. Once was just a hard pop and minor dislocation, the other time it fractured the elbow due to a slip and hard lock out. I understand the concept.

Henry Brown wrote: You both should get mouthguards and head gear.

Head gear is on the wish list, We both have mouth guards but have not bothered to put them in. We will as the pace steps up, guaranteed!

Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: Example: http://tinyurl.com/f6rje [Warning: Rather nasty imagery.]

We do that movement for kotegaeshi. Good technique for loosening up the wrist.

Keith Lee wrote: Because that's a far cry from even amateur MMA competition, let alone the big leagues.

I have to disagree with you there Keith. I have met Mitchi Mochizuki and taken classes with Roy Hebden the technical director of YWF Australia. Really amazing stuff.

The reason I recommended the YWF is because they have successfully blended sword, aiki, karate, judo and weapons into one martial system so you can easily switch from say one fighting technique to another especially when countering techniques. I don't think this strategy is prominent in traditional aikido. In aikido we deal mostly with one attack and finish the technique there and then. Hiro Mochizuki's theory is that its very difficult to just throw or lock someone from say one punch or kick. You have to work your way into it by using strategies such as setting them up with high combination strikes to expose the lower body to a sutemi or simple boxing ones like bobbing in and out to encourage them to take a swing so as to judge distance.

Darin Hyde wrote: We do that movement for kotegaeshi. Good technique for loosening up the wrist.

Interesting. You mean the rotation into the ... how to describe it... kind of locking the elbow against your side? I could see how that might help.

Yes rotating into the elbow and kind of locking it against your side then sharply twist your hips.

The kotegaeshi variant is taught by John Stevens as an off-balancing entry (ura or omote) and then pressing against the elbow with the hips, then tenkan around the arm for kotegaeshi. Very nice...sometimes the push into the locked elbow is sufficient for the throw ala hijiate kokyu nage.

Best,
Ron

I thought I'd also pass along a suggestion I've been hearing here and there: have you thought about tracking down a boxing, kickboxing, or muay thai student for future sessions? Not in the sense of having some sort of "style vs. style" match, or even having them go all-out, but at least getting someone who can "go easy" with correct form.

One analogy I heard was, "Isn't this like boxers putting on hakama and trying to wristlock each other to see how their art fares against aikido?"

Hey Paul,

We have actually planned on this. We thought it would be good to get some practice in first tho! Both of us have done some other martial arts (Bob has a lot of experience with arts outside of Aikido) so I don't know if it's EXACTLY like two boxers putting on Hakama... but I get your point.

We know a few "strikers" that we can call on who would have much better form than we are showing. I'd like to get a little more time in to get my head around this before bringing someone else in tho.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Jeff D.

It's been a while since we've posted, but we have a new version of Aiki-Boxing out on youtube if anyone is interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Q8ShKpM1Q

Any commentary or suggestions?

Thanks!

Jeff D.
http://www.usaikido.com

When are you guys finally gonna move down to 4 ounce gloves? I mean you got the headgear and the previous experience, so why not...?

Good video, always a fan.

The dude in the white shorts doesn't appear to be as enthusiastic as the one in blue. The blue keeps smacking nage with his free hand, while I noticed white doesn't do anything with it.

Also, I think the biggest problem is that you're just too afraid to get hit. The second guy did some wacky things like turn completely to expose his back, back peddling, running off to the side, shrinking, and just generally trying to avoid punches by instinct. I think maybe some sparring will do good, so you get past that fear of being struck in the face over and over, and focus on redirection and line of attack.

edit: talking about guy in green shirt.

Yup... the guy in green is me. I agree that this is helpful to get over that fear. That's why we practice! I really need to get over my tendency to turn my back when I get tired.

The reason we are still using the boxing gloves is that it allows us to attack with a little more speed, but still keep it safe.

Thanks for the input!

Jeff D.

Yeah, you should probably wait until you get hit less and less before switching to 4 ouncers. I mean a few shots (with headgear) from those won't kill you, but better be safe anyway.

Jeff Davidson wrote: It's been a while since we've posted, but we have a new version of Aiki-Boxing out on youtube if anyone is interested. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Q8ShKpM1Q Any commentary or suggestions? Thanks! Jeff D. http://www.usaikido.com

Guys,

This sucks. Hard. Boulders through a straw. But it's a good demonstration because it shows how Aikido training prepares one to deal with even amateurish boxing, which is to say it doesn't prepare one at all.

So let me try to add some constructive criticism. In most cases where you're actually able to grab an arm, it's because the right is being thrown as a haymaker, which means that against proper boxing you would never catch an arm. That's to be expected. You also know it's coming, and even then it's hard to do much with it. You're also doing an elbow shield against a jab, which is overkill. All you're really doing is obscuring your vision so you often don't see the right coming. It would be better to slip the jab or parry it with your right hand, instead of covering your head with your left. By the time you drop your arm to see where he is, you're back at square one.

For the most part, attempting to grab an arm would be suicide. Going for a head manipulation throw is higher percentage, but then you're into clinch work. You're trying to Aikido against sloppy boxing and naturally wind up with sloppy MMA. Now you see why MMA works. With quality boxing and clinch work you could handle these attacks with ease.

Depending on the source, Aikido is 70 - 90% atemi, meaning you have to hit the guy, and the only way to do this in a boxing context is to be a good boxer, draw him to attack you, and counterpunch him. This begs the question of why you would need to then finish with an arm technique, but there you go - forget Aikido and concentrate on boxing if you want to learn aiki.

Harsh Dan! Boulders?

Dan Austin wrote: ... With quality boxing and clinch work you could handle these attacks with ease.

Yeah, it strikes me that just about the best thing to deal with these attacks (specifacally the predictable and repeated jab,jab,right punch, wait) would be some very simple boxing along the lines of slip, slip, one-two, fight over.
The elbow-cover, charge blindly forward, left wrap combination seem to me firstly to be applicable mainly against a known sequence of gentle attacks, and secondly ... not aikido.
...hey don't get me wrong, it's all leading to a fairly effective method of anti-puncher self-defence which is a good thing if that's the aim.

The huge boxing gloves are impeding practice and making realistic development difficult.

The elbow-cover works in fighting, but maybe should be dropped in favour of more aikido defence.

Use ma-ai, surely that's more than half the beauty of aikido.

My last point is a bit wierd but might be the most important : before every session appoint a puncher and an aikido guy and don't change around that day at all, just so you both can get into your roles. Then the aikido guy has to pretend to be a really vicious aikido master like ... Ueshiba. Aim to do what you reckon he would have done. Keep the ice packs handy.

I applaud the intent behind this training. My criticism is that it falls into the same training paradigm trap as much other aikido. i.e. you know excactly what uke is going to do which gives you an unrealistic advantage. Even with that it seems most of the time what is happening is you're waiting for the "boxer" to throw the combo and then applying a technique. In other words assuming that combo is all there is. So in that respect it's not so different to "you punch me then I'll do a technique" -it's just moved to "you punch me a few times then I'll do a technique"

I think in terms of training though its a step in the right direction.

Hey Michael,

The first two rounds were done with a jab - jab- hook combo, but the last two were done "freestyle". Neither of us were aware what the other was going to do there.

Thanks for all of the great input everyone!

Jeff D.

don't use the elbow shield as a defensive move. just like in the old day, the shield is also an offensive weapon. wait for the hay-maker, step inside the arc and brought up your elbow into a tsuki strike. it would cover your head but also strike the other person shoulder and augmented the impact of his arm swinging. if you aimed right, your elbow will hit the spot where the arm attach to the body, there is a nerve center that will numb his arm for awhile. with the other arm, slide up the other person chest into the chin, step forward for an iriminage. if you want to be nasty, then cut down with the elbowing arm into the other person shoulder at the same time with the iriminage move or doing an iriminage move with the upper cut elbow and drop elbow straight down into the spot where the neck meet the chest (that's my dark side of the force speaking).

don't play into another person advantage such as don't try to out box a boxer or out kick a kickboxer or out wrestle a bjj. to deal with a boxer, you take out his legs. it's ok to sweep his legs. one time saotome sensei put us through a leg sweeping session; it's all very aiki.

maybe you should try to work out simple stuffs first such as what sort of aiki things (I didn't say techniques) you can use against jab, hook, upper cut, ...etc. also, might want to start out with just sliding blocks and move around the other person and notice where the openings are.

just some ideas, don't try it at home.

Good on you for having a go.

Yes to atemi!

You don't have to go the block, block strike back. Try using the block as a strike to enter and take the balance.

When your blocking your standing still then when you do get a grip your leaning to affect a throw not really moving your feet or center, look at any aikido there is no real stopping, always turning. If you can turn and combine with atemi it means the boxer has to punch around your atemi to get to you, that creates openings.

Does that make sense?

Dan...

Hard boulders through a straw!?!? Ouch! I appreciate your suggestions. Many of the points you brought up are things that Bob and I discussed as well. Maybe we'll give the Atemi thing more of a shot, since it's been raised several times here.

Phi...

Leg sweeps have also been mentioned. Blok sensei also showed us a few ways to use the knee when moving in to break balance. So much stuff to try to throw in there!

Aran...

Thanks for the suggestions. Movement is always key, and I definitely find myself flatfooted often, One of the many areas I need to work on. Practice, practice, practice!

I'm glad you guys are doing what you are doing. I commend you graciously on your efforts. It's great to see real punches thrown. No matter how amateur, really it's great to see Aikido methods tested against situation that a person might find themselves, in an altercation.

Dan Austin wrote: Guys, Depending on the source, Aikido is 70 - 90% atemi, meaning you have to hit the guy, and the only way to do this in a boxing context is to be a good boxer, draw him to attack you, and counterpunch him. This begs the question of why you would need to then finish with an arm technique, but there you go - )

Could it be because:
he may or may not keel over due our punches.
a punch is used as much to hit him as it is to enter his space and avoid a tiresome exchange of punches and get us in a good grappling possition.
may be that he could eventually pary our punch.