Uke, the other hand, atemi, deflection and the role of uke

John Matsushima wrote: Even if someone has never had martial training, everyone can punch and kick.

They can punch and kick poorly, both with regards to technique as to intent.
I know it's a common aikido meme "Everyone can punch the other guy out. What we do is more difficult and more ethical, because we try not to injure the other guy.", but it's a poor argument and shows a lack of understanding about kicking and punching. It really makes me want to join the crowd that says "Then show us in the Octagon.", but that's a not a completely sound argument either.

John Matsushima wrote: I agree that martial intent is important, but technique is not required for that.

Not my experience...Martial Intent is the mindfulness, willingness, and ability to use physical violence...In Aikido's early days almost of it's "converts" were seasoned Martial Artists so Martial Intent was implied not taught. Nowadays this is not the case....

Just slap uke a couple of times in the face whenever his punch misses you and you'll get intent without having to say a word. Or, you could just stand there and wait as nage for uke to do something that deserves a reaction. I do this sometimes when in irimi nage, uke stays bent over and doesn't move. I'll either just stand there and wait for him to do something, ANYTHING, or give him a little love tap to the ribs till he gets the point.

Again in my experience if Uke is not always attacking it's not proper Ukemi...When you slap someone who has never been slapped in a martial setting I don't consider it a good teaching tool unless you teach them what being "slapped" is all about.

Even if someone has never had martial training, everyone can punch and kick. The point I'm trying to make is that when you train people how to do this, how to attack, how to react, then you take away the "living" part of the interaction, and make it automated. You then train yourself to deal only with these specific types of attacks. But the variations in attacks vary from person to person, and our art must be equally alive and changing.

You have a valid point if you're teaching folks "by rote" We all need a good "base" Once someone has been taught Martial Intent they tend to be a bit more creative then some folks give them credit for. LOL I have been reversed by 3rd and 4th Kyu's on techniques without them being taught a thing... They just had the mindset and creativity to discover this on their own... Uke's should always allow for techniques to be completed but in my experience they should be taught to be mindful.... otherwise...It's still just a series of Dance Moves and nobody is learning or understanding anything about themselves as Aikidoka.

William Hazen

Hi Maarten,

Once past the beginning stages (and that can be relative to who you are training with...) I think uke's job is to take your center and attack sincerely..... Uke must protect themselves too, therefore must be ready to parry nage's atemi. I always make sure I have a hand ready to protect myself from atemi. It's what I've been taught and it's what I teach my students. You can parry atemi AND remain true to the waza/form/kata. If you are simply protecting yourself and not actually reversing what nage is doing then I don't see why someone would find that confusing. I can see why grabbing the atemi hand would confuse some nage as that is diverging from the form......

Cheers,

Russ

Standard yoshinkan practice is to block, and allow your uke to break your posture *as if* they had landed the strike. That way you are protected, and your uke gets to keiko. Of course, the more senior the partner, the more they HAVE to actually break your posture with the atemi.

Best,
Ron

Grabbing the atemi hand also seems like it would make sense mostly if you already had committed to stopping/reversing the technique. The parry sets those possibilities up, but leaves them open; of course either a parry or grab also may open uke to a change in technique from nage, maybe more so with a grab that doesn't itself develop into something.

YMMV

Regards,

cdh

Basicly, I agree with you.

One should NOT attack one-handed (unless ...).

But, on the other hand, you should not grab their hand. Doing this imples your deflection is much faster then their reaction and most likely, faster then your own attack.

We normally practice deflection of the atemi, even as UKE while sensei demonstrates, I normally do it when the attack is suited (some attacks are two handed or tend to create some opening - which sensei employs for his atemi).
One should note the deflection does not make the atemi less important. It too requires some Uke attention which is one of the important purposes for Atemi.

Amir

Amir Krause wrote: (...) But, on the other hand, you should not grab their hand. Doing this imples your deflection is much faster then their reaction and most likely, faster then your own attack.

Deppends on uke's intention. He may want to grab or to "simply" deflect. There are uses for both strategies, I reckon.

Amir Krause wrote: **** [You] should not grab their hand. Doing this imples your deflection is much faster then their reaction and most likely, faster then your own attack. Amir

This seems like a good point, especially when practicing particular attacks (e.g., yokomen uchi).

Regards,

cdh

David Henderson wrote: Grabbing the atemi hand also seems like it would make sense mostly if you already had committed to stopping/reversing the technique. The parry sets those possibilities up, but leaves them open; of course either a parry or grab also may open uke to a change in technique from nage, maybe more so with a grab that doesn't itself develop into something. YMMV Regards, cdh

If I grab someone's hand, it's mostly a reflex. Having played basketball for a long time, I'm used to grab anything that comes at a certain velocity towards my body. I do try to not let the grabbing get in the way of the technique. I only take over when tori is doing something really wrong (like holding their hands behind their head during shihonage).

Apart form that, already received some very interesting answers and feedback. Thanks everyone, and keep posting!

Maarten,

I hear you. It's great you have fast reflexs. I also get it that you're not trying to stop the technique. My comment wasn't meant to suggest you were.

IME, when someone grabs my wrist, for example, as nage and too early when performing shomen uchi ikkyo, it gives me a connection/opening to react to; the longer that opening exists, the more likely I'll be able to react somehow. Hence my comment about a grab that didn't develop into, for example, a reversal.

When I am taking ukemi for my teacher, and I present an opening, he's likely to take it. I was thinking out loud about how grabbing might affect the interaction martially.

Similarly, I perceived Amir to be addressing -- in part at least -- how it might affect an attack for basic practice if one made a point of trying to grab (which I understand you're not doing).

In any event, as with most other folks I think I agree with your basic point of view about the role of uke.

Regards,

cdh

Maarten De Queecker wrote: If I grab someone's hand, it's mostly a reflex. Having played basketball for a long time, I'm used to grab anything that comes at a certain velocity towards my body.

Kudus for having such good reflexes, but actually, reflex reactions are an excellent example of the phenomena I was describing. By nature, reflexes are very fast, and it is likely to assume that your reflex grabbing is much faster then your own attacks..

Such a grab would change the situation. This would be for some, but is not recommended as a general way of practicing Aikido: By grabbing you change the situation, and therefore change the Kata Sensei set, the technique and variation practiced might no longer be one suited for the situation. And the learning process is derailed. If you have a good sensei the same should not be said about deflections of the Atemi, most times, as I explained earlier - the diversion goal is achieved.

Even if you do not make a point of trying to grab, you indicated grabbing often puts you in awkward positions -- Tori should adjust his technique, which would violate the Kata being learnt. Personally, I have often showed such things to newer students -- I adjusted the technique to the new opportunity their response provided me, and after showing them how their reaction (often much minor then yours -- just a matter of focus of balance) changed the situation, then I asked them to respond as Sensei instructed while teaching -- the current Kata.

Further, since you grab by reflex, likely faster then Tori Atemi (which should be at about the speed of your attack and normally for learning : medium to slow). You likely arrive to situations which would only rarely be arrived at had all the action been done at full speed.

To summarize, you try to be more martial, and start properly -- keep your second hand up (which you should). But end up doing something awkward that hampers the learning process.

Amir

Amir Krause wrote: Kudus for having such good reflexes, but actually, reflex reactions are an excellent example of the phenomena I was describing. By nature, reflexes are very fast, and it is likely to assume that your reflex grabbing is much faster then your own attacks.. Such a grab would change the situation. This would be for some, but is not recommended as a general way of practicing Aikido: By grabbing you change the situation, and therefore change the Kata Sensei set, the technique and variation practiced might no longer be one suited for the situation. And the learning process is derailed. If you have a good sensei the same should not be said about deflections of the Atemi, most times, as I explained earlier - the diversion goal is achieved. Even if you do not make a point of trying to grab, you indicated grabbing often puts you in awkward positions -- Tori should adjust his technique, which would violate the Kata being learnt. Personally, I have often showed such things to newer students -- I adjusted the technique to the new opportunity their response provided me, and after showing them how their reaction (often much minor then yours -- just a matter of focus of balance) changed the situation, then I asked them to respond as Sensei instructed while teaching -- the current Kata. Further, since you grab by reflex, likely faster then Tori Atemi (which should be at about the speed of your attack and normally for learning : medium to slow). You likely arrive to situations which would only rarely be arrived at had all the action been done at full speed. To summarize, you try to be more martial, and start properly -- keep your second hand up (which you should). But end up doing something awkward that hampers the learning process. Amir

Agreed 100% I'm trying to work on it ;-)

Maarten De Queecker wrote: ...I have been told that I'm not attacking right, that I should not be deflecting (or even having my hand at that height), but on the other hand, isn't it rather silly to completely commit to an attack without at least protecting yourself to some degree?...

Surely that's only reasonable if you are pretending to actually ATTACK someone ... which isn't the case in normal aikido practice is it? (is it?)
If you are 'giving a strong telegraphed aikido strike' which is then used to practice aikido ... that's fine, but why should that involve deflecting an atemi?

Having read down through the other responses to this thread : I am wrong.

I'm curious though : Maarten why do you practise aikido by the way?

Hi

Michael Douglas wrote: ... if you are pretending to actually ATTACK someone ... which isn't the case in normal aikido practice is it? (is it?)

Well sure it is. How would you learn to deal correct with the actions of the attacker otherwise?

As uke we don't use the second hand to deflect an atemi but to deliver a second attack/strike if we are able to do so.

The atemi of nage needn't got to the face but can also attack other parts of the body.

This are two reasons not to attack with the free hand already guarding the face like some people do.

Carsten

Michael Douglas wrote: Surely that's only reasonable if you are pretending to actually ATTACK someone ... which isn't the case in normal aikido practice is it? (is it?) If you are 'giving a strong telegraphed aikido strike' which is then used to practice aikido ... that's fine, but why should that involve deflecting an atemi? Having read down through the other responses to this thread : I am wrong. I'm curious though : Maarten why do you practise aikido by the way?

I've been wondering that myself. I started training aikido because a friend recommended it. I watched some videos on youtube before my first training and already felt like "This is it. This is what I've been looking for all along." The non-competetive aspect has certainly something to do with it, but the same goes for the spiritual and physical aspect. Then there's the circular movements of the techniques, the precision required to pull them off, the benefits to ones health (I've become a lot more supple in only two years time), the good atmosphere, and of course being thrown in every possible direction. Let's just say I fell in love with the complete package. It just feels really good to train. Of course I struggled the first 8 months, but I felt that I could become good at this, if I kept on training. This might sound like a bit of "ego", and it is. I have spent three years in college or at university to try to get somewhere. I never did. I finished high school with grades I wasn't too pleased with (even though I fully knew it was my own fault). In short: I completely lacked self-confidence, both on an intellectual and on a social level. Add to that two very difficult years in my life -my mom went through a very heavy depression and has only very recently recovered from it-, and you might understand that I needed something to pull myself up to. I needed something in which I could excel. I needed the boost in confidence, which aikido certainly gave me. I felt more safe on the street, started to look in front of me instead of to the ground, and met a lot of good people, some of which are now very good friends.

In short, there's a plethora of reasons as to why I practice aikido, and all of those are equally important.