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02-17-2012, 07:09 AM
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#101
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Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,670
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Re: Why no tsuba?
Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote:
In which school of swordmanship have you enough knowledge, so I get the context of your previous statement " it's already clear that the anti-tsuba forces don't consider the behavior of actual swords relevant to their practice" ?
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My God, did this thread really end up as a for and anti tsuba argument? That's as mind numbingly trivial as the old "Certs is a breath mint. No, Certs is a candy mint." commercials.
I think one can easily figure out where one might stand on this issue... For me, the very first time I had a solid oak tsuba break in two and fly across the dojo, my stand on the issue was a done deal. No tsuba, those were my knuckles that would have been clobbered.
The idea that you get wedded to one idea or the other as a reflection of your superior or not adequate technique is ridiculous. Going back as far as you want, different koryu had different preferences for their bokken and shinai. However, no one, to my knowledge had a live blade without a tsuba. The tsuba clearly had a function. Not having one changes how you have to run your technique. Since real swords have tsuba, I go with my practice weapons having tsuba. You don't want to use one, that's your business. As far as my teacher, Saotome Sensei is concerned, you want to protect your hand or not is entirely up to you.
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02-17-2012, 09:13 AM
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#102
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Dojo: Allegheny Aikido
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 170
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Re: Why no tsuba?
I always figured, since most of my bokken came with a tsuba, I'm going to put it on. It's there for a reason and I hate wasting bits. That's as bad as having screws left over!
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02-17-2012, 04:30 PM
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#103
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Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
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Re: Why no tsuba?
Maybe some should wonder what's the benefits of training with no tsuba.
Regards.G.
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02-17-2012, 06:22 PM
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#104
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Location: SF Bay Area
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 197
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Re: Why no tsuba?
Weapons training is intense and dangerous. In fact if you're not cracking bokuto and getting the occasional bruise, you're simply not training hard enough. What you say here and what you teach about weapons, might get people hurt. So if you're going to recommend "training without tsuba" at least do so responsibly and from a position of demonstrated knowledge and experience in proper weapons training.
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02-18-2012, 10:09 AM
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#105
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Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
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Re: Why no tsuba?
Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote:
Weapons training is intense and dangerous. In fact if you're not cracking bokuto and getting the occasional bruise, you're simply not training hard enough. What you say here and what you teach about weapons, might get people hurt. So if you're going to recommend "training without tsuba" at least do so responsibly and from a position of demonstrated knowledge and experience in proper weapons training.
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What are you talking about? You know nothing of what I teach about weapons or not but feel you can make such a slur?
Anyone who says blatantly that weapons training is intense and dangerous sounds like they may be being a bit irresponsible by issuing such statements.
Now, if you can answer the question I put then fine. If you feel you would never do so then say so.
Regards.G.
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02-18-2012, 11:05 AM
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#106
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 841
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Re: Why no tsuba?
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote:
You know nothing of what I teach about weapons
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Incorrect, I think this is quite illuminating: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fTSjj8eQkI
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02-18-2012, 11:31 AM
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#107
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Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
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Re: Why no tsuba?
Quote:
David Soroko wrote:
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I guarantee you cannot see what is being shown in said video or any other of mine. Now, what's the benefits of training with no tsuba?
Regards.G.
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02-18-2012, 12:04 PM
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#108
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 841
Offline
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Re: Why no tsuba?
Is this "guarantee" valid for all the existing videos only, or does it cover future videos as well :-) ?
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02-18-2012, 12:21 PM
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#109
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Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
Offline
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Re: Why no tsuba?
Enough talk. I see you have nothing to say on benefits of no tsuba.
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02-18-2012, 12:21 PM
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#110
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 841
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Re: Why no tsuba?
As to the with/without tsuba discussion, lookup photos of kaiso Ueshiba with sword and see for yourself.
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02-18-2012, 01:24 PM
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#111
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Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
Offline
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Re: Why no tsuba?
Oh, well, pictures of O-Sensei using a bokken without a tsuba, that settles it.
This particular argument has all the fascination for me of arguments about which way to hang the roll of toilet paper.
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02-18-2012, 01:35 PM
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#112
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Dojo: Aikido of San Diego, San Diego, California
Location: San Diego County, California
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 335
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Re: Why no tsuba?
I don't train with a tsuba, and in my fairly limited experience (only my own dojo, and visiting two others) I've never seen a tsuba on a bokken. I don't think I've even seen them in videos. O Sensei and his students didn't use them, as far as I can tell ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i27obVRzIPc). My teacher's teacher, Morihiro Saito Sensei, didn't use tsuba ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQqHlyPrD6o). We don't have them on any bokken at our dojo. So I don't use one.
"The Last Samurai" is hardly a historical document, but no tsuba there, either ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2lMcgvixN0). And for what it's worth, none here, either (no idea what moving this is, or if it's historically correct): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jW8t5jZyEk
My understanding is that bokken is a weapon in its own right, a blunt hitting instrument (albeit with very concentrated force along the "blade" edge), not a practice sword, although it can be used for training sword technique, too. If you're practicing sword techniques, I guess you should use a tsuba, since real swords have them.
I suppose my answer is very simple: The art/lineage in which I train doesn't use tsuba, so I don't use one. If what you are training in uses them, you should use one. Why is this a pro/con debate?
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02-18-2012, 01:44 PM
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#113
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 841
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Re: Why no tsuba?
Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote:
Oh, well, pictures of O-Sensei using a bokken without a tsuba, that settles it.
This particular argument has all the fascination for me of arguments about which way to hang the roll of toilet paper.
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I am genuinely interested in seeing photos of the kaiso holding a bokken with tsuba. Can you provide a link?
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02-18-2012, 02:05 PM
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#114
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Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
Offline
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Re: Why no tsuba?
Offhand, I don't recall ever having seen such a picture.
So that definitely settles it.
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02-18-2012, 02:14 PM
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#115
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 841
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Re: Why no tsuba?
Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote:
Offhand, I don't recall ever having seen such a picture.
So that definitely settles it.
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I am not sure what you mean by it. It seems that the founder consistently used bokkens without a tsuba. Isn't this something worth considering?
Anyway, I think that the (not very satisfying) answer to the OP's question is "because this is the way the founder did it".
Last edited by sorokod : 02-18-2012 at 02:19 PM.
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02-18-2012, 05:13 PM
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#116
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Dojo: Searching for a new home
Location: Delaware (<3 still in Oregon!)
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,004
Offline
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Re: Why no tsuba?
To jump in the most recent of conversations:
Most of our people have tsuba, but you should be able to eventually receive a technique and absorb to the point that one isn't necessary. I am nowhere near that and I am more than thankful that I have one. My knuckles sometimes still get bruised, even with a tsuba because the bokken comes over the tsuba as they continue to cut down as I lower my hands to receive. My old dojo used to encourage me to "go for it" and I would have been a lot more hesitant to have done so if I my partner didn't have a tsuba or if I wasn't confident that they could take care of themselves.
Here is a link to two guys at Birankai Summer Camp demonstrating kumitachi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_k0m...eature=related Though these two have tsuba, Birankai doesn't necessarily endorse one way or another. Tsuba or no tsuba, I don't care. I want one; what you have is up to you. Just be prepared to take care of yourself. Traditionally speaking, I have never seen a shinken without a tsuba though.
To answer the original poster "Does anyone know why aikidoka typically train with bokken that have no tsuba? Are there styles/schools within aikido that typically do train with a tsuba? Has anyone trained both ways and has an opinion on which way you prefer and why?":
My dojo mainly uses tsuba, but there are a couple people who do not. I have trained with people who prefer no tsuba. Some is personal preference, some is dojo preference and some is more of a stylistic preference that is passed down from their teacher's teacher. The easiest way to answer your question is the reason your teacher does it that way is because their teacher did it that way and their teacher did it that way... It also depends on if your dojo in particular has a heavy influence of iaido or anything like that. Those dojo's may or may not prefer tsuba for that reason.
Last edited by ninjaqutie : 02-18-2012 at 05:24 PM.
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~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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02-19-2012, 02:00 AM
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#117
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 841
Offline
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Re: Why no tsuba?
A way to rephrase the "because this is the way the founder did it" answer is that the founder trained in a way that didn't requite a tsuba. This training was formalised and put down as a methodology by Saito Morihiro sensei as what is called the Iwama style which maintains this feature of bukiwaza.
Other teachers derive their sword training from different sources which explains the variation in approaches. The litigious societies some of us live in are also a contributing factor.
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02-19-2012, 02:56 AM
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#118
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Dojo: Sokushinkan Dojo, Vancouver
Location: Richmond, BC
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 64
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Re: Why no tsuba?
Originally, I had been of the purists saying "O-sensei didn't use tsuba, so no tsuba" but after today's weapons training, I feel otherwise.
I look at my bokken differently now.
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02-19-2012, 06:52 AM
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#119
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Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
Offline
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Re: Why no tsuba?
Quote:
David Soroko wrote:
A way to rephrase the "because this is the way the founder did it" answer is that the founder trained in a way that didn't requite a tsuba. This training was formalised and put down as a methodology by Saito Morihiro sensei as what is called the Iwama style which maintains this feature of bukiwaza.
Other teachers derive their sword training from different sources which explains the variation in approaches. The litigious societies some of us live in are also a contributing factor.
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So now the discussion is getting a bit more open I still don't see much of 'pro's and cons' being mentioned. I see references only to who does and who doesn't and that's about all.
Plenty of why to use a tsuba and the theme is basically once you've been hit or could have been.
This is where I part from the standard 'logic' for to me that is fear based. Now, I'm not saying it is wrong to use a tsuba but when the reason is 'because my hand would have been smashed' then I see no technical reason given, no technical reason why the hand got hit, as if there is no way out of such a position. Held as a solid belief I thus disagree, however that once again doesn't mean it's wrong to use a tsuba. It all depends on what you are practicing and why.
With a live blade then it would be a bit of added security rather than a necessity, in other words I would tell anyone don't rely on it. You can learn whatever fancy ways of using it you like but if you ever rely on it then you may get a nasty surprise somewhere along the line.
regards.G.
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02-19-2012, 10:10 AM
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#120
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,318
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Re: Why no tsuba?
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote:
This is where I part from the standard 'logic' for to me that is fear based. Now, I'm not saying it is wrong to use a tsuba but when the reason is 'because my hand would have been smashed' then I see no technical reason given, no technical reason why the hand got hit, as if there is no way out of such a position.
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Just because you're paranoid, that doesn't mean they're *not* out to get you.
Which is to say that what you see as fear, some of us see as simply healthy respect for the capabilities of the weapon.
I think several people have pointed out instances in which the tsuba is essential to the form being practiced. The two most common examples in my experience are cases where the two tsubas are locked against each other, and where the form includes a "pulse" movement to jump over the tsuba. There are also lots of forms where the hands are a target; obviously the details of these attacks will be different without a tsuba.
Katherine
Last edited by kewms : 02-19-2012 at 10:12 AM.
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02-19-2012, 12:05 PM
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#121
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Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
Offline
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Re: Why no tsuba?
Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote:
Just because you're paranoid, that doesn't mean they're *not* out to get you.
Which is to say that what you see as fear, some of us see as simply healthy respect for the capabilities of the weapon.
I think several people have pointed out instances in which the tsuba is essential to the form being practiced. The two most common examples in my experience are cases where the two tsubas are locked against each other, and where the form includes a "pulse" movement to jump over the tsuba. There are also lots of forms where the hands are a target; obviously the details of these attacks will be different without a tsuba.
Katherine
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Hi Katherine.
I did point out that the reasons given were fear of what might happen and no technical reason given,
Pointing out instances where the tsuba is important for the form being practiced is also as I said when saying it depends on what you are practicing. So it seems we are in agreement there.
Now if you want to point out the forms where the hands are the target, ahh, now it gets more interesting. This is where the logic of therefor tsuba necessary seems very ligical yet where I say not so. In fact quite the reverse believe it or not.
So I am also saying that anyone who thinks Ueshiba for example didn't use tsuba because he wasn't practicing such 'hand cutting' techniques is wildly misinformed. So it brings us back to my question, what are the benefits of no tsuba especially when practicing such hand cutting forms?
I'll repeat again, that doesn't mean it's wrong to use a tsuba.
Regards.G.
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02-19-2012, 12:36 PM
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#122
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 841
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Re: Why no tsuba?
Quote:
Once again I pose a view where people have to look at something they haven't considered before...
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Indeed :-)
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02-19-2012, 01:18 PM
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#123
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Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
Offline
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Re: Why no tsuba?
Quote:
David Soroko wrote:
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Off point once again. But feel free to watch.. http://youtu.be/9fTSjj8eQkI
However, not relevant to the discussion.
Unless of course you would like to understand something.
Regards.G.
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02-19-2012, 02:02 PM
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#124
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Location: Auckland
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 22
Offline
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Re: Why no tsuba?
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote:
Off point once again. But feel free to watch.. http://youtu.be/9fTSjj8eQkI
However, not relevant to the discussion.
Unless of course you would like to understand something.
Regards.G.
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This is way off topic... but I don't really understand why this video has been produced, and presented the way it has?
Hip hop and hats?
What were you going for here Graham?
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"Our fears don't stop death… they stop life."
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02-19-2012, 02:14 PM
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#125
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Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
Offline
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Re: Why no tsuba?
Back to the point. I think I was extremely lucky to train with and witness the bokken in use and various points emphasized and demonstrated which showed 'the other side of the coin' so to speak in 'standard beliefs' when it came to it's or the swords use.
Now my teacher was not only a bit 'old school' but even went as far as to say that nearly all armour was a trap for the person wearing it and led to lazyness. (yes, lazyness)
I witnessed a viryual procession of 'swordsmen' (at the time, I didn't know whether they were aikidoka, kendo people or whatever) taking lessons from him in what he called the aikido sword. One of his favourite ways of teaching was showing how the other had become too reliant on the tsuba and demonstrated the fact by continuously hitting their knuckles.
His point was that they had relied too heavily on it's protection and so didn't know what to do when it wasn't there from such an attack.
Pros and cons, that's what I'm talking about. Totally different from should you or shouldn't you.
His favourite corrective hits? Knuckles and elbows. Now that would lead to some saying you must have elbow guards and how dangerous it all is and then we go further down the road of less skill.
The other side of the coin. Good movement and skill=no need for tsuba. That's the other end of the equasion.
Now before anyone goes off into personal this and that without knowing one thing about my own personal methods and skill know this only: Contrary to how most teach the sword or bokken I would not teach anyone until they had practiced Aikido for many years. I let them hold the bokken and try small things only to demonstrate certain principles or sometimes to show them why they shouldn't be thinking they know much about it.
My pre requisite is that a person must be at least quite capable of sen no sen before they can learn much useful about the sword at all. Without that, in my view, it's pretty much a waste of time no matter how competent or flash you look or indeed how many skills you know.
That's my personal view. But the point of the tsuba discussion is learning how to protect your hands and knuckles without a tsuba is also a skill worth learning.
Regards.G.
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