You are giving me the wrong energy...WTF

Time and time again I hear and have been told, "You are giving me the wrong energy" These humble words are usually gifted when Nage cannot perform the technique.

Your thoughts and opinions are greatly appreciated being it in the Dojo or on the Street.

Are you taking pride in that...what does your instructor say about it?

Mary Eastland wrote: Are you taking pride in that...what does your instructor say about it?

Taking pride in what?

My Sensei tells me, how do beginners behave? Exactly is my point. They give you energy that's flowing in all directions. Why because they have no understanding of this flow. Sensei asks me what do you do about it? I certainly don't tell them "you are giving me the wrong energy. I just deal with it or ask for immediate instruction from Sensei where the block for me is as Nage. By the way, we have a 6th Kyu Fijian Guy who has a Bionic grip!

These humble words are usually gifted when Nage cannot perform the technique.

My thoughts...

Most Aikido training is kata-based, and so it is perfectly logical that the nage might not be able to perform the given technique if the attack has the "wrong" energy/flow. It is often said that the Uke selects the technique because the energy/attack/flow that the Uke provides usually leads into a particular technique. This is fine in randori or jiyu waza, it is less useful in kata-training.

Obviously, more competent Aikidoka will often *make* the technique work anyway from long experience dealing with incorrect attacks or *wrong* energy. Yes, the less competent will cry "wrong energy" when they really should just improvise and learn, but not everyone can do that.

Remember, it is a training exercise. And the uke is training their own movements. If the nage is prevented from doing the technique, the uke isn't learning the ukemi that technique teaches either.

IMHO, technique is usually less important than movement, balance and flow. Maintaining awareness of openings, balance and body control while doing the ukemi for a technique is what will keep you safe in an encounter. Good ukemi translates into better movement. A nage that moves well and understands balance can usually take uke's balance better which makes techniques possible. That doesn't mean the uke should be "giving" the technique away - but adjusting the energy to the level of the nage is important especially if the nage is a relative beginner or just someone experienced trying to learn something *new*.

Rest assured, experienced Aikidoka give one another *wrong* energy on purpose just to see what happens, but most of the time they are trying to set the energy *right* for the technique. I adjust my attacks [energy] for a 5-year old child to a competent teenager to an experienced dan to a middle-aged beginner. It is common sense. It is training. We are trying to teach our bodies to move and react in particular ways. You can't learn physics by writing poetry or write poetry with equations.

I hope that helps.

So he has a bionic grip...does that make a logical attack? Or does he just stand in front of you gripping?

Robin broke it down quite well, I think. The point isn't whether uke can thwart their partner, it's whether they should. Many a time in a martial arts class I've seen a smug knows-a-little student thwart their beginner partner by cheating in small ways. This serves no purpose except to inflate the ego of the cheater -- unwisely so, I think. The only reason you succeed in such situations is because your partner is playing by the rules and you're breaking them, not because your partner's technique sucks or your attack is so devastatingly excellent. Partner training is a learning experience; if you act so that your partner can learn nothing (because they're just learning this stuff; because they need, for now, to work more slowly to get the technique correctly; because they're trying to work on a technique that is a sensible response to the attack that you should have done and chose not to), the only value you derive from the experience is ego-aggrandizement, and the only value your partner derives is to learn that you're not someone useful to train with.

Don't translate energy as voodoo magical rainbow powers. Force and energy are also used in mundane ways.

Say, I go to do Iriminage. As I lead someone down, the person falls on in the fetal position and pulls my arm down. The throw I am supposed to be practicing is to follow someone standing back up. I can try to powerlift my partner, but I am not training for progressive resistance. I am training to feel where gravity, their own muscles, and their own intention wants to go. If I start to follow the resistance and feeling of force on force, I get worse. But, my partner can maybe give me some strength training.

Later on, we're doing free style. Someone is used to stuffing my practice by bearing down. But, now the rules don't apply to me. My partner pushes down, and I accelerate my partner's head at the ground. Or, it's on the street and I will give them a mouthful of my knees and then the pavement for dessert. In my experience, the partner who can be a nuisance during kata practice is constantly scared or getting injured in Randori. In one of the last seminars I went to, a big white belt moose was stuffing as many people as he could. He didn't know the difference between strong and brittle, and spent the last hour of the day with shoulder and neck injuries.

Make this about any other martial art. Someone wants to practice boxing with you, but all they do is kick you in the shin. Are you learning boxing? Or someone who wants to practice self defense stuff, and they are taking the role of someone who is trying to kill you, but they don't attack you - they run away and hide. How is your practice going? Are you getting ready for the guy who really does want to kill you in real life?

The first rule for practice from O Sensei said any of these techniques can kill, so be mindful and follow instructions.

Shioda Sensei had five specific ways for Uke to attack for Kokyu Doza - pushing, pulling, stiffening on the spot, crushing and closing, big circular lead. If someone is supposed to be practicing push, it doesn't help them to learn push if you pull instead. It's like trying to teach someone math by having them recite Chaucer. There are rules to the game in every sport and activity, and we have them too.

Mary Eastland wrote: ...does that make a logical attack?

Beam me up Scotty I need to talk to Spock? But Capt Spock is dead.Bugger...

Robin Johnson wrote: My thoughts... Most Aikido training is kata-based, and so it is perfectly logical that the nage might not be able to perform the given technique if the attack has the "wrong" energy/flow. It is often said that the Uke selects the technique because the energy/attack/flow that the Uke provides usually leads into a particular technique. This is fine in randori or jiyu waza, it is less useful in kata-training. Obviously, more competent Aikidoka will often *make* the technique work anyway from long experience dealing with incorrect attacks or *wrong* energy. Yes, the less competent will cry "wrong energy" when they really should just improvise and learn, but not everyone can do that. Remember, it is a training exercise. And the uke is training their own movements. If the nage is prevented from doing the technique, the uke isn't learning the ukemi that technique teaches either. IMHO, technique is usually less important than movement, balance and flow. Maintaining awareness of openings, balance and body control while doing the ukemi for a technique is what will keep you safe in an encounter. Good ukemi translates into better movement. A nage that moves well and understands balance can usually take uke's balance better which makes techniques possible. That doesn't mean the uke should be "giving" the technique away - but adjusting the energy to the level of the nage is important especially if the nage is a relative beginner or just someone experienced trying to learn something *new*. Rest assured, experienced Aikidoka give one another *wrong* energy on purpose just to see what happens, but most of the time they are trying to set the energy *right* for the technique. I adjust my attacks [energy] for a 5-year old child to a competent teenager to an experienced dan to a middle-aged beginner. It is common sense. It is training. We are trying to teach our bodies to move and react in particular ways. You can't learn physics by writing poetry or write poetry with equations. I hope that helps.

Thank you for the very candid response.

I train exactly how you mention. Good hard Kihon training. Fully conversant at the level of strength given to every training partner I encounter regarding their experience. From old lady to child to Shidan. My face pulling is when an experienced Aikidoka mutter those words. Of course you button off. What does that achieve for Nage, besides letting them demonstrate their technique?. A false sense of security at Yudansha level? Even worse when they close their eyes and the head does a wiggle! We are not playing Tiddly Winks! But you some it up perfectly...."but not everyone can do that" ask for help .

Mary Malmros wrote: and the only value your partner derives is to learn that you're not someone useful to train with.

Quite the contrary, your the person I need to train with so my Aikido improves. Thats what Shihan and experienced Aikidoka say! Thats why you get asked to be demonstration Uke most of the time. We also leave our egos at the door before we bow in.

John Hillson wrote: Don't translate energy as voodoo magical rainbow powers. Force and energy are also used in mundane ways. Say, I go to do Iriminage. As I lead someone down, the person falls on in the fetal position and pulls my arm down. The throw I am supposed to be practicing is to follow someone standing back up. I can try to powerlift my partner, but I am not training for progressive resistance. I am training to feel where gravity, their own muscles, and their own intention wants to go. If I start to follow the resistance and feeling of force on force, I get worse. But, my partner can maybe give me some strength training. Later on, we're doing free style. Someone is used to stuffing my practice by bearing down. But, now the rules don't apply to me. My partner pushes down, and I accelerate my partner's head at the ground. Or, it's on the street and I will give them a mouthful of my knees and then the pavement for dessert. In my experience, the partner who can be a nuisance during kata practice is constantly scared or getting injured in Randori. In one of the last seminars I went to, a big white belt moose was stuffing as many people as he could. He didn't know the difference between strong and brittle, and spent the last hour of the day with shoulder and neck injuries. Make this about any other martial art. Someone wants to practice boxing with you, but all they do is kick you in the shin. Are you learning boxing? Or someone who wants to practice self defense stuff, and they are taking the role of someone who is trying to kill you, but they don't attack you - they run away and hide. How is your practice going? Are you getting ready for the guy who really does want to kill you in real life? The first rule for practice from O Sensei said any of these techniques can kill, so be mindful and follow instructions. Shioda Sensei had five specific ways for Uke to attack for Kokyu Doza - pushing, pulling, stiffening on the spot, crushing and closing, big circular lead. If someone is supposed to be practicing push, it doesn't help them to learn push if you pull instead. It's like trying to teach someone math by having them recite Chaucer. There are rules to the game in every sport and activity, and we have them too.

Being doing Randori for 5 years, Can handle 3 Ukes at once. Also a competent master roller. Love putting pressure on Nage during Randori. Roll at their feet and spring strait back up in their face.

Never practice as you mention above. Conserve energy, economy of movement!

Just good old fashioned Iwama Aikido!

Richard Campbell wrote: Quite the contrary, your the person I need to train with so my Aikido improves.

Not if your partner insists on playing games. You won't get any improvement that way.

I should step back and say that where I've trained, in most cases the sensei wants you to try to do what she/he is teaching you. Indeed, some take a very dim view of improvisation. When you as uke decide that you want to cheat, use your knowledge of the technique that's about to happen and so thwart it, you put your partner in a very bad position. Your partner is expected to do a certain technique, and by your behavior you've just made that impossible, or at least not the optimal response. Your partner now has two bad choices: try to half-ass the technique that they're supposed to be doing, or do something that works better given your behavior and possibly annoy sensei. How does a good training partner force their partner into bad choices?

Others have said it and I will repeat: this is training. Arguments about "but but but if you were in the STREET" are invalid here. Sensei's perfectly entitled to insist that you do what's being taught. Surely complying with that is part of "leaving your ego at the door".

It's a treat to work out with someone who can control their energy and help you learn through their participation. Much of the time, we are working with some variation of poor juju. I think as a general point of training, one should get used to this frustration and figure out graceful and helpful ways to work with a partner. Generally, the attack shouldn't matter. If you are moving with aiki body, then your body can deal with any form of control. Hunkering down is a form of control.

In kata, you should perform kata. If kata says push, you should push. If kata says pull, you should pull. As part of the education process, participate in the education.

There is a prejudice in aikido that nage wins - Our training method prioritizes nage's success and that prejudice has arguably progressed into a entitlement of success. I have seen as many issues with nage expecting uke to fall down as I have seen uke refusing to participate in kata. There are some instructors that have migrated to a method of teaching that does not indulge that prejudice as much as other methods and I like what they are doing.

My first instructor would simply do what was appropriate, then helpfully say, "I wouldn't do that." In some respects this approach works better that talking because uke often moves how he feels is appropriate. Helping him to understand what is (and is not) appropriate goes a long way in helping your partner to understand why there are better options than what he chose. But, not everyone is good enough to train this way. I am not a fan of changing the equation. "I would punch you and kill you," is a variation of the common correcting verbiage that follows, "like most beginners, you attacked me wrong." If you introduce attack #2, then it is only fair that uke gets attack #2 - this just escalates the problem without solving it. If you are moving with aiki, there is no attack #2, so "giving it" to your partner is permissible because they can't do anything anyway; if you are not moving with aiki, then you are gonna see attack #2 from your partner. Honestly, I advocate 1 of 2 things: 1. admit that you are having issues, and specifically ask uke to help you. 2. do what's appropriate, explain that your responses are not what you want to practice and specifically ask uke to help you practice what you want to practice. If uke is not helping you, that is a different problem.

In application, most of your partners are never going to give you a clinical aikido energy force and direction. Judo, jujutsu, striking arts, etc. generally apply multiple vectors of energy to attacks and they often do not sacrifice balance. You let a judo player grab you and hunker down and you are in serious trouble. Heck, even aikido people are supposed to move in spirals so even when we are moving we're supposed to be moving in a non-linear fashion.

Mary Malmros wrote: Not if your partner insists on playing games. You won't get any improvement that way. I should step back and say that where I've trained, in most cases the sensei wants you to try to do what she/he is teaching you. Indeed, some take a very dim view of improvisation. When you as uke decide that you want to cheat, use your knowledge of the technique that's about to happen and so thwart it, you put your partner in a very bad position. Your partner is expected to do a certain technique, and by your behavior you've just made that impossible, or at least not the optimal response. Your partner now has two bad choices: try to half-ass the technique that they're supposed to be doing, or do something that works better given your behavior and possibly annoy sensei. How does a good training partner force their partner into bad choices? Others have said it and I will repeat: this is training. Arguments about "but but but if you were in the STREET" are invalid here. Sensei's perfectly entitled to insist that you do what's being taught. Surely complying with that is part of "leaving your ego at the door".

Rest assure, I am not a partner who plays games at the Dojo. Sensei would dismiss you at the click of his fingers. Sensei and I had a great 70 minute discussion this evening about this subject and some of the comments given to me.You would be surprised at his answers. Like Nage determines the Technique. Nage initiates the attack. He has no problems with my training attitude and commitment. He is also fully aware I peruse this site and open discussion.

John Hillson wrote: Don't translate energy as voodoo magical rainbow powers. Force and energy are also used in mundane ways. Say, I go to do Iriminage. As I lead someone down, the person falls on in the fetal position and pulls my arm down. The throw I am supposed to be practicing is to follow someone standing back up. <snip>.

If your throw is to be practicing is to follow someone standing back up why in the first place you lead him down??? This is quite nonsense from martial point of view.

From biomechanical point of view iriminage is only possible when attacker's backbone is skewed backward. So your leading should create such shape of his body. Once you are able to achieve this without any external help(YES it is possible, can you imagine...), you may stop lecturing uke how he must behave in order you can successfully apply iriminage LOL

Richard Campbell wrote: Time and time again I hear and have been told, "You are giving me the wrong energy" These humble words are usually gifted when Nage cannot perform the technique. Your thoughts and opinions are greatly appreciated being it in the Dojo or on the Street.

I don't train much so please take this more as me thinking aloud to clarify my own thoughts than anything else...
I tend to dial it back if anyone is having problems. I mean, it depends entirely on the nature of the relationship with the training partner, but if they're having trouble with some part of the movement I generally want them to explore that part by giving them just enough to be able to work on it. So I try to feel what their limit is and then push right up toward it without actually reaching it. They're happy they get to move and I'm happy I get to apply my structure instead of talking about it.
"Wrong energy" is a hard phrase to work with though. I much prefer it when my partner can pinpoint where I'm being overly tense or otherwise describe the detail of my energy that is lacking. If it's hard to pinpoint, it becomes an exploration thing. The premise to training, as I understand it, is that nage makes it work by harmonizing with nature and uke gives enough to work with. Maybe the technique has to change to make it work. For example, I was practicing with a Wing Chun guy and tried to do ikkyo. His elbow was so tightly drawn to his body I couldn't float it, but I could penetrate with my other hand through the forearm. This displayed an opening that my partner adjusted for and suddenly I could do ikkyo, even if it wasn't pretty. Sorting though what we have presented to us is why I like this stuff so much. Wrong energy? Maybe so. Let's explore that. Sometimes my partner and I might just have to agree to disagree.
Of course on "the street," function is king, so I probably wouldn't worry about it so much. Theoretically, I'm just harmonizing with nature and my attacker is forced to harmonize with it through me.

I agree with Matthew that "giving the wrong energy" is NOT any help at all in terms of feedback to uke. It is unspecific and targets a wrong - raising hackles - instead of offering a different option...for instance
"Please continue the downward strike right to a point in the middle of my brain, rather than stopping it at my head and freezing..."

Okay, that's different. The way the thread opened up, not knowing you, you were using the same language as far too many idiots I have had to put up with, and for all their "knowledge," they can't fight their way out of paper bags. You know exactly what people are complaining about, and you know exactly what they are asking you for.

The comments are you then having a problem about psychobabble holier-than-thou-attitude magic language corrections? People maybe hiding their inferiority complex behind attitude and snarky comments? I completely agree, if I now understand you correctly.

I like concrete feedback. If I cannot give feedback in some concrete fashion, then I don't fully understand what is happening. It might be that my partner does not understand the movement, or has poor mechanics and both are easy to attempt to correct with simple, solid, concrete, respectful language.

Jon Reading wrote: It's a treat to work out with someone who can control their energy and help you learn through their participation. Much of the time, we are working with some variation of poor juju. I think as a general point of training, one should get used to this frustration and figure out graceful and helpful ways to work with a partner. Generally, the attack shouldn't matter. If you are moving with aiki body, then your body can deal with any form of control. Hunkering down is a form of control. In kata, you should perform kata. If kata says push, you should push. If kata says pull, you should pull. As part of the education process, participate in the education. There is a prejudice in aikido that nage wins - Our training method prioritizes nage's success and that prejudice has arguably progressed into a entitlement of success. I have seen as many issues with nage expecting uke to fall down as I have seen uke refusing to participate in kata. There are some instructors that have migrated to a method of teaching that does not indulge that prejudice as much as other methods and I like what they are doing. My first instructor would simply do what was appropriate, then helpfully say, "I wouldn't do that." In some respects this approach works better that talking because uke often moves how he feels is appropriate. Helping him to understand what is (and is not) appropriate goes a long way in helping your partner to understand why there are better options than what he chose. But, not everyone is good enough to train this way. I am not a fan of changing the equation. "I would punch you and kill you," is a variation of the common correcting verbiage that follows, "like most beginners, you attacked me wrong." If you introduce attack #2, then it is only fair that uke gets attack #2 - this just escalates the problem without solving it. If you are moving with aiki, there is no attack #2, so "giving it" to your partner is permissible because they can't do anything anyway; if you are not moving with aiki, then you are gonna see attack #2 from your partner. Honestly, I advocate 1 of 2 things: 1. admit that you are having issues, and specifically ask uke to help you. 2. do what's appropriate, explain that your responses are not what you want to practice and specifically ask uke to help you practice what you want to practice. If uke is not helping you, that is a different problem. In application, most of your partners are never going to give you a clinical aikido energy force and direction. Judo, jujutsu, striking arts, etc. generally apply multiple vectors of energy to attacks and they often do not sacrifice balance. You let a judo player grab you and hunker down and you are in serious trouble. Heck, even aikido people are supposed to move in spirals so even when we are moving we're supposed to be moving in a non-linear fashion.

Thank you. I am a Kyu grade and this makes very good reading. I can relate to your comments.

John Hillson wrote: Okay, that's different. The way the thread opened up, not knowing you, you were using the same language as far too many idiots I have had to put up with, and for all their "knowledge," they can't fight their way out of paper bags. You know exactly what people are complaining about, and you know exactly what they are asking you for. The comments are you then having a problem about psychobabble holier-than-thou-attitude magic language corrections? People maybe hiding their inferiority complex behind attitude and snarky comments? I completely agree, if I now understand you correctly. I like concrete feedback. If I cannot give feedback in some concrete fashion, then I don't fully understand what is happening. It might be that my partner does not understand the movement, or has poor mechanics and both are easy to attempt to correct with simple, solid, concrete, respectful language.

I respect what you have said and have to say. This is a discussion forum and your participation with interesting view points can only add value. I have encountered many "key board warriors" and that's all they are. I never judge a book by its cover.

Janet Rosen wrote: I agree with Matthew that "giving the wrong energy" is NOT any help at all in terms of feedback to uke. It is unspecific and targets a wrong - raising hackles - instead of offering a different option...for instance "Please continue the downward strike right to a point in the middle of my brain, rather than stopping it at my head and freezing..."

Totally agree. Thank you.

Matthew Gano wrote: I don't train much so please take this more as me thinking aloud to clarify my own thoughts than anything else... I tend to dial it back if anyone is having problems. I mean, it depends entirely on the nature of the relationship with the training partner, but if they're having trouble with some part of the movement I generally want them to explore that part by giving them just enough to be able to work on it. So I try to feel what their limit is and then push right up toward it without actually reaching it. They're happy they get to move and I'm happy I get to apply my structure instead of talking about it. "Wrong energy" is a hard phrase to work with though. I much prefer it when my partner can pinpoint where I'm being overly tense or otherwise describe the detail of my energy that is lacking. If it's hard to pinpoint, it becomes an exploration thing. The premise to training, as I understand it, is that nage makes it work by harmonizing with nature and uke gives enough to work with. Maybe the technique has to change to make it work. For example, I was practicing with a Wing Chun guy and tried to do ikkyo. His elbow was so tightly drawn to his body I couldn't float it, but I could penetrate with my other hand through the forearm. This displayed an opening that my partner adjusted for and suddenly I could do ikkyo, even if it wasn't pretty. Sorting though what we have presented to us is why I like this stuff so much. Wrong energy? Maybe so. Let's explore that. Sometimes my partner and I might just have to agree to disagree. Of course on "the street," function is king, so I probably wouldn't worry about it so much. Theoretically, I'm just harmonizing with nature and my attacker is forced to harmonize with it through me.

We train AWASE.

Here is an extract from Iwama-Aikido.com

"AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

The spectrum of martial arts is larger than any one person can learn in a lifetime. A student generally picks one martial art that appears to best suited his personality, trains in it for a number of years, and then uses it as a base to explore other martial arts and add selected pieces to what becomes his personal system.

The entirety of martial arts can be viewed as a huge jigsaw puzzle with many thousands of pieces. Each martial art focuses on one or more sections of the puzzle and therefore a subset of the pieces. There is also considerable overlap between the subsets. For example, punching is common to almost all martial arts which include unarmed techniques. Contending that one martial art is superior to another is meaningless because they relate to different sections of the puzzle.

Also associated with the particular focus of every martial art is some aspect which makes it unique in relation to the others. In AIKIDO this is AWASE, which can also be called the principle of AIKI. AWASE literally means "come together", and AIKIDO is generally the "way of uniting with KI (spirit)".

Saito-sensei stressed the principle of Awase every day in our training in Iwama.

The concept of AWASE is to merge into an opponent's attacking movement and take control. During the initial engagement the defender maintains perfect balance and perfect stance, whereas the technique is designed such that the balance and stance of the attacker are destroyed. The attacker is thereby brought under control immediately. The technique is completed by continuing the movement into a joint lock, pin, throw, etc.

A general conception of AIKIDO is that the principle is to use an attacker's own power against him. Although this is true to some extent, AWASE is more dynamic. The defender uses his own body movement to merge into the attacker's power. It is also possible to initiate a movement that will create an attack into the defender's sphere of control. After the initial engagement, the attacker's power is irrelevant because his balance is gone and he cannot bring his power to bear.

As an analogy to AWASE, consider trying to stop a train that is coming down the tracks. Standing on the tracks and trying to stop the train by physically overpowering it will not be expected to work. However, running next to the train, jumping aboard, moving to the engineer's compartment, overcoming the engineer and applying the brakes will produce the desired result of stopping the train. This is comparable to AWASE in that no attempt is made to directly oppose power, but control is gained by merging into the power and disabling it.

The founder of AIKIDO, Morihei Ueshiba O-sensei, spent many years adapting techniques from Daito-Ryu Jujitsu and other martial arts to embody the principle of AWASE. A number of these older techniques included movements that at least obliquely opposed an opponent's power and required considerable physical strength to perform. O-sensei modified these techniques by subtly changing directions so that the opposition was eliminated and the initial movements always merge into the direction of the attack.

Many people in AIKIDO use the term "blending with an opponent's power" rather than "merging into an opponent's power". I personally think that the concept of "blending" is non-descriptive and deceptively passive. "Blending" conjures up an image of tossing vegetables, fruits, etc. into a juicer/blender and turning on the switch. After a while the blender produces a homogeneous mass in which the individual ingredients are indistinguishable from each other.

Blending would result in both people ending up in the same situation and being indistinguishable from each other. This is not what happens in AWASE, which is a dynamic act resulting in the defender gaining control over the attacker and being clearly distinguished therefrom.

Anyway, semantics aside, it is hoped that the reader will gain from the above presentation an understanding of the aspect of AIKIDO that makes it unique among martial arts. Actual application of AWASE is subtle and takes considerable training to master, but that is one of the things that makes AIKIDO so fascinating and challenging to learn."

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: If your throw is to be practicing is to follow someone standing back up why in the first place you lead him down??? This is quite nonsense from martial point of view. From biomechanical point of view iriminage is only possible when attacker's backbone is skewed backward. So your leading should create such shape of his body. Once you are able to achieve this without any external help(YES it is possible, can you imagine...), you may stop lecturing uke how he must behave in order you can successfully apply iriminage LOL

Arigato Aikido brother from another mother.

I would like to train with you! No nonsense Aikido?

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: From biomechanical point of view iriminage is only possible when attacker's backbone is skewed backward. So your leading should create such shape of his body. Once you are able to achieve this without any external help(YES it is possible, can you imagine...), you may stop lecturing uke how he must behave in order you can successfully apply iriminage LOL

If someone is determined to foil a particular technique, he will probably succeed. It's very difficult to execute iriminage if your partner responds to the initial entry by bending forward at the waist.

Now, "out there," who cares. If he's going to bend over like that, I'll happily introduce his head to my knee, or to the ground. Fine.

But in the dojo, with Sensei expecting me to demonstrate iriminage, or with me in front of a class trying to teach the technique? Yeah, I might explain that this particular ukemi is not going to facilitate that particular technique.

I hope I never use the phrase "giving me the wrong energy," though. That's just lame.

Katherine

Hi

Not knowing you, nor coming from your school, this is a bit difficult to answer.

However, I wish to repeat the above statement:
when doing Kata, you should do that Kata to the best of your ability and you should forget your knowledge of employed technique.


While I have never used the phrase "wrong energy" I do recall myself telling Uke he is not doing the Kata Sensei showed,hence I had to deviate from Sensei intended technique to practice. I then asked him to change power/pressure direction and or attack to adjust to Sensei Kata. Of course I did it as he get us from throw (but that has to do with other things, particularly the tendency of such states to occur among beginners, which I can no longer claim to be )

Long before the street, we have other pillars of training, such as Randori, which in the style I practice (Korindo), is not a one Vs many people trying to grab you on turn, rather a closer to low to mid intensity sparring, with both sides initiating attacks o their own time (mostly punches or strikes, with some kicks, and very few grabs), evading the others techniques and reversing them. Randori is far from a fight as it should be a learning tool to practice, not focused on winning (a fact hard to learn and still confusing at times, even with own experiance ). But, one can't complain in Randori as to partners attack, partner use of own openning or even the partner setting one a trap. This is not Kate.

Now, there are several options here, and not seeing the practice, I could not guess which happens in reality:
1) You are doing the Kata as should, maybe a bit forcefully, but exactly. Except Naga is not competent enough to do that particular technique in a way he deams safe for practice given the intensity level you employ.
Solution - grade down and adjust. Even if Nage is a Yundasha, you are not the Sensei, and you don't grade him, your role as Uke is to help him train. Also, may consult with Sensei as to directions for Nage to deal with you if Nage wishes.

2) You are not doing the Kata as should, some change you do voids the opportunity for the exact technique variation Sensei shows (or makes it too narrow for this Nage, maybe a better one still could).
Solution - try to adjust your movements more, ask Sensei to perform on you and sense for such things. Note, if Sensei changes the exact technique he demonstrated, this means you have changed the Kata.

3) Your sensei is not giving exact Kata to practice, rather varies it a little each time, and then something akin to the two above happens - Nage is not competent enough to adjust, and you are taking things to one side which makes it more difficult on him.
Solution - change you side of the equation, make it easy to do correct technique o you on first few times and gradually lean to your way, within the range Sensei has shown.

Hope this helps a bit
Amir

P.S.
For more on other types of Randori, see:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...hlight=randori

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...hlight=randori

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...hlight=randori