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Old 08-30-2008, 08:52 AM   #201
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I do not feel that modern aikido has proven its effectiveness. I feel that it can add a extra layer of strategy to someone who has skill in fighting, but as a stand alone training system, it does not develop the skills needed properly.It is either a martial art, or it isn't. If it is not useful in fighting, stop using the word martial.
Don,
I think you are holding aikido to a standard that you don't hold other martial arts to. Most people recognize that no single martial art is a "stand alone training system." Isn't that why people developed MMA? Sincere martial artists have been cross training since the dawn of martial arts. And to say that it's not useful in fighting is a bit over the top.
Ricky
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Old 08-30-2008, 10:59 AM   #202
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I do not feel that modern aikido has proven its effectiveness. I feel that it can add a extra layer of strategy to someone who has skill in fighting, but as a stand alone training system, it does not develop the skills needed properly. I base this on my limited experience in aikido, my intermediate experience in judo and bjj, my first hand experience with aliveness n training, and my talking to the many many aikidoka about how they train and what they expect to get from that training.
LOL Once again it comes down to this....

You have been saying this for years on a few forums and no matter where you start in a thread it always comes down to this.Why?

Read my words carefully Don...

You can't change something by whining about it. Either you roll up your gi sleeves and DO something about changing the status of Aikido Training or We Aikidoka on the mat are going to tune out your "observations" from the peanut gallery at the back of the bleachers.

Quote:
And that would be fine. Except that there are people who want to claim aikido is everything to everyone. It is either a martial art, or it isn't. If it is not useful in fighting, stop using the word martial.
Again I have read about this chip you have on your shoulder forever...These mythical "people" who claim Aikido is everything to everyone represent less that 1/100 of 1% of all the Aikidoka practicing and That would be like me saying the WWF/WWE and Vince McMahon represent grappling.

Ever heard of the "80/20" rule for modern management?

Stop wasting your time Don. Either put up or with all due respect find something more constructive to do with your time.

The simple fact is Aikido is a Martial Art and it works. Maybe not as well as it should but last time I checked there was room for improvement in every Martial Art I have experienced including Boxing, Grappling and BJJ.

Don't believe me. the go see Dan Hardin. I'll bet after a few sessions with him you "feel' exactly what I am talking about. I can't wait to see what that practice will do for our Aikido... Which technically is pretty darn good to begin with as a Martial Art.

LOL....Oh man....

Take Care Don.

William Hazen
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Old 08-30-2008, 03:32 PM   #203
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Don wrote:

Quote:
I do not feel that modern aikido has proven its effectiveness. I feel that it can add a extra layer of strategy to someone who has skill in fighting, but as a stand alone training system, it does not develop the skills needed properly. I base this on my limited experience in aikido, my intermediate experience in judo and bjj, my first hand experience with aliveness n training, and my talking to the many many aikidoka about how they train and what they expect to get from that training.
Well I think it depends on what you mean by effectiveness. For most of us grapplers on the list, I think we have a good idea about how we would define effectiveness.

Once you start taking a budo mindset, I think it takes on a different and maybe a deeper meaning. I am wondering where all us MMA guys will be in our training 20 and 30 years from now. Does it evolve into something else as we grow older, wiser, calmer?

How do you envision yourself in the dojo in your 70s? What will be the important thing you are trying to cultivate in your students? What legacy are you aspiring to leave the world?

Here is essentially what I was told the purpose of AIkido was when I began Training: (excerpt from Aikido Shobukan's Website...Saotome Sensei's Dojo)

http://www.aikido-shobukan.org/?ref=42

Quote:
Purpose of Aikido
Aikido is different in its training purpose from other martial arts. Martial arts are often practiced to gain fighting prowess. Through his varied experiences, O Sensei realized that simply accumulating strength for fighting is ultimately futile. He saw the true purpose of Budo to be refinement of the individual. O Sensei created Aikido as a martial way for students to develop a strong body and a mind that is calm, free from contentious thoughts, and whose natural reaction is defense rather than offense, protection rather than counter-destruction.

O Sensei wrote:
"Budo is not felling the opponent by force; nor is it a tool to lead the world into destruction with arms. True Budo is to accept the spirit of the universe, keep the peace of the world, correctly produce, protect, and cultivate all beings in nature."

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Old 08-30-2008, 03:52 PM   #204
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

"O' Sensei created Aikido as a martial way for students to develop a strong body and mind that is calm, free from contenious thoughts, and whose natural reaction is defense rather than offense, protection rather than counter-destruction".

An interesting statement. One that is loaded with lots of room for interpretation.

Strong body. How much time in aikido do we really spend developing a "strong body"?

What IS a "Strong Body"?

I think Dan, Mike, and Ark have some very good opinions on what this means. Also much of the core conditioning I do in Grappling and Yoga is also good. But again, how much time or effort do most dojos really put in devleoping this?

Mind that is calm. Well Budo practice I think CAN do this, if it is trained properly, over and over, and over. I think most of us here also agree that "Aliveness training" allows us to go through the forging process while also developing appropriate reponses (startle/flinch).

I think most aikido organizations take the approach which we would call "dry fire" or "relfexive fire training in shooting and CQB. Doing things slow and methodical to develop good habits. At some point it needs to be linked back to aliveness though.

Free of contentious thought. I think this is where things get a little squirrely. Couple that with the comment immediately following...Defensive, not offensive....and you have the makings for a bad budo situation for those that do not come from a martial culture.

We begin to think things such as "MMA is the opposite of Aikido because it trains you to be offensive...therefore, it must fill you with contentious thoughts".

I know that seems silly, but think about the logic a minute....

THose that form a affinity with something like aikido really want to believe that there is something special, different, and unique, about the Budo practice that give us special or unique insight that cannot be gained easily from any other way.

I think it is natural for us to want to assume that we must draw a clear distinction from other forms of MA training.

Anyway, I think it is a noble goal (and one of mine) to better learn to free myself from contention. I think aikido, done properly allows you to explore all aspects of physical and mental violence, and can indeed show us ways to better refine our skillfulness.

I think it can be a wonderful allegory for peace and harmony.

I also think that it cannot come easy without walking the line between offense and defense, violence and no violence...AND it must be done full spectrum with elements of aliveness and connection.

Anyway...starting to ramble.

I think that alot of what we do in aikido is misunderstood, misinterpreted, and applied incorrectly as a training methodology.

You can't have calm without understanding violence. You cannot have a good defense without understanding offense.

What many of us grapplers that have stuck with aikido...I think, have discovered is a better understanding of that dynamic.

A dynamic that I think in many respects has become lost in the translation in many cases in the west as aikido took hold here in the 1970s. (over generalization, I know, but I think it is probably true in alot of cases) YMMV with various instructors etc.

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Old 08-30-2008, 04:43 PM   #205
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt; wrote:
I am wondering where all us MMA guys will be in our training 20 and 30 years from now. Does it evolve into something else as we grow older, wiser, calmer?

How do you envision yourself in the dojo in your 70s? What will be the important thing you are trying to cultivate in your students? What legacy are you aspiring to leave the world?
Couple of thoughts on this from my personal perspective.

First of all from an MMA perspective - I think we're still in the sports youth and we'll see plenty of evolution still to come, that'll take care of another 10-15 years.
BJJ as you know, the better you get the more it flows so at 70 I hope to be flowing round the young bucks.

My goal as an instructor and coach I feel is pretty simple. Have people leave training more empowered than when they walked in. That covers a gamut of things - physical efficacy, confidence, mental strategies for succes, pursuit of execellence....etc etc.

Whatever tools I'm using to do that, BJJ MMA, NLP, Aikido - the goal remains the same.

As to what I'll be doing in 20 years time - still BJJ and MMA. But if I was looking in a crystal ball, I wouldn't be surprised to learn Aikido has become a more central part of my training again.

And here's why. I have never figured out away to take the techniques and approach of Aikido and transform it into a sparring environment due the difference in assumptions on the intent of the attacker. But I believe the Aikido method needs to be build on a more solid foundation of live training - which means other arts.

It seems likely Ueshiba had lots of rough n tumble training before settling on the "peaceful" method. Same with his top students. As I believe has been discussed on this board before, I think an issue with modern Aikido is people trying to start at Ueshibas end point without going through a simiilar type of evolution.

Theres aspects of aikido which can be effective just from training aikido. There are a few stories floating around about folk using it against the untrained- so there's something there.

But I suspect, after 20 years of BJJ/MMA, I will have an indepth appreciation of leverage, balance and body movement under pressure. A finely tuned sense of timing and distance, an ability to see attacks,gaps and opportunities.

In other words all the things that would make the "techniques" of aikido truly functional. At this point I may well be ready to go back to it in more detail.

Will be interesting to see...

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-30-2008, 05:03 PM   #206
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Michael Fooks wrote:

Quote:
First of all from an MMA perspective - I think we're still in the sports youth and we'll see plenty of evolution still to come, that'll take care of another 10-15 years.
BJJ as you know, the better you get the more it flows so at 70 I hope to be flowing round the young bucks.
A BJJ black belt friend of mine rolled with Helio in the past couple of years (in his 90s), I asked him what it was like. He said, "well he is good, but he is in his 90's and you know, he does "old guy" jiujitsu, so you have to work with it." but he is still impressive for his age and still has lots to teach.

Quote:
And here's why. I have never figured out away to take the techniques and approach of Aikido and transform it into a sparring environment due the difference in assumptions on the intent of the attacker. But I believe the Aikido method needs to be build on a more solid foundation of live training - which means other arts.
I have the same issue as well. Of lately, I am thinking that the issue is not with trying to adapt aikido, as it assumes that there is something inherently different and distinct that is not in BJJ and vice versa. The issue I think is simply, as you state, the paradiqm dealing with different assumptions etc. It is starting to make sense to me now as I no longer view it from a technical standpoint of a collection of moves or an attack chain, if you will, but from a perspective of "appropriate response".

The stuff I did with Mike Sigman and Ark/Rob John shed some light on this issue as I experienced more connectedness and began understanding what really moving form the core and ground is all about, (not that I can do it very well).

NLP! I thought I was the only one that got into that stuff! I agree it has a place. Never have heard anyone else mention it though!

Michael, you and I have alot in common on how we see things.

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Old 08-30-2008, 05:13 PM   #207
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

yeah I'm a certified NLP practitioner (as part of my day job) and will probably get my master practitioner next year. I use it alot in the club as well to pretty good effect.

Quote:
Michael, you and I have alot in common on how we see things.
yep - hopefully at some stage we'll find ourselves on the same part of the planet with some mats nearby...

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-30-2008, 05:20 PM   #208
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
yeah I'm a certified NLP practitioner (as part of my day job) and will probably get my master practitioner next year. I use it alot in the club as well to pretty good effect.

yep - hopefully at some stage we'll find ourselves on the same part of the planet with some mats nearby...
NLP is a superb way to help people excel in many areas in life and shorten the way to their success.

Michael, you had the chance of learning / listening from/to Chris Howard's NLP (Practitionair / Master ) serieses? Or learned (ever thought of) from the source it self: Bandler ?

Last edited by Shany : 08-30-2008 at 05:22 PM.

A good stance and posture reflects a proper state of mind
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Old 08-30-2008, 05:20 PM   #209
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Yeah - unfortunately once the marketers got a hold of it it is percieved by some as tool for manipulation. Which is a shame cause it completely misses the point.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-30-2008, 05:25 PM   #210
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
Yeah - unfortunately once the marketers got a hold of it it is percieved by some as tool for manipulation. Which is a shame cause it completely misses the point.
True on that note.

A good stance and posture reflects a proper state of mind
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Old 08-30-2008, 05:38 PM   #211
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Wow, I have only been exposed to the concept of NLP, many years ago. I see the application, but have no background in it at all. Would love to hear your insights.

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Old 08-30-2008, 06:16 PM   #212
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

it's a big topic - I'll start a new thread later tonight...

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-30-2008, 06:37 PM   #213
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

thanks. Look forward to it.

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Old 08-30-2008, 06:39 PM   #214
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

I have to warn you in advance though that we will probably have a thread eventually called "defending against NLP using Aikido".

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Old 08-30-2008, 07:31 PM   #215
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

lol

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-30-2008, 09:59 PM   #216
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
LOL Once again it comes down to this....

You have been saying this for years on a few forums and no matter where you start in a thread it always comes down to this.Why?
Because it is what I believe and I've come across no evidence to the contrary.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Read my words carefully Don...

You can't change something by whining about it. Either you roll up your gi sleeves and DO something about changing the status of Aikido Training or We Aikidoka on the mat are going to tune out your "observations" from the peanut gallery at the back of the bleachers.
You can lead a horse to water....

I simply do not care about 'fixing' aikido. It's not worth my time. What I care about is stopping people from spreading what I feel are lies about what people can and can't gain from 'sports'. I'm sick of hearing it, and being that I have a lot of free time on the internets, I make it my personal mission to put forth a counter argument. I don't want to fix anything, I want people (especially new ones looking for what they want) from getting lied to. Every time someone says "Oh don't worry about X, thats a sport and useless against the power of our art, they do a huge disservice to the truth. People in martial arts tend to be very faith based. They tend to go along with what they are told because they are paying money and deep down simply do not want to face the truth that what they are paying money for may not work. I want people to just think about what they want and what they are getting from their training and to be honest. Nothing more.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Again I have read about this chip you have on your shoulder forever...These mythical "people" who claim Aikido is everything to everyone represent less that 1/100 of 1% of all the Aikidoka practicing and That would be like me saying the WWF/WWE and Vince McMahon represent grappling.
The problem is that the 1/100 of 1% seem to be the most vocal. And yes, I do have a chip. I've wasted TONS of time because I was lied to. I don't want to see that happen to anyone else. If I was on a bjj forum and was reading the same kind of bull, I'd call them on that as well.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Ever heard of the "80/20" rule for modern management?

Stop wasting your time Don. Either put up or with all due respect find something more constructive to do with your time.
You are right. I should stop wasting my time. But I am an idealist. I believe that if I can save one kid from wasting their time on ineffective training, it was worth it. If I can save one kid from believe his is a modern day samurai and can defeat anyone with a wave of his hand, it was worth it. One of the purposes of judo was to foster mutual benefit and welfare. It is for our benefit that we cut this crap already. It has existed for far too long. I have worn thin however and honestly, I've hoped every day I go to a place that does not training with aliveness that I will be wrong and that something fundamentally life changing will happen. Every time I make a post, I secretly hope for the same. How many posts have I made? How many times has someone on the other side of the argument posted a single shred of evidence? It is disheartening.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
The simple fact is Aikido is a Martial Art and it works. Maybe not as well as it should but last time I checked there was room for improvement in every Martial Art I have experienced including Boxing, Grappling and BJJ.
Maybe, but I never said it was not a martial art. The problem is that when confronted with evidence that there are better ways to develop skills, the common response is "well we are not training for actually using these techniques". In the same breath you will then be told that X sensei could defeat all comers. It ether is or it isn't. You either train for martial application, or you don't.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Don't believe me. the go see Dan Hardin. I'll bet after a few sessions with him you "feel' exactly what I am talking about. I can't wait to see what that practice will do for our Aikido... Which technically is pretty darn good to begin with as a Martial Art.
Is he an average modern aikdoka? I don't talk about special people. I don't care about top MMA fighters, or unique skills some guy has. I care about the average guy. (That is not to say that I personally do not want to train with unique or top individuals.) If you take a room full of guys and send them to different aikido schools all over the country for 1 year, what results can you expect? Are they ready to defend themselves? Can they handle being punched in the face? How would they fair in a controlled fighting situation with a untrained opponent of equal or greater size and strength?

There are plenty of people out there that can school me using anything. I'm not all that tough. My judo and bjj instructors both blow my mind every time I get on the mat with them. That doesn't matter to me. But when I see that guy do a week of judo and know that in a few months if a guy comes off the street to grapple with him there is a better then average chance he is going to throw him on his head, that matters to me. When I see that training method that is predictable and repeatable, that matters to me.

And if someone says "I'm not in it for that" then I'm all for them. Honesty in training is what this is about. That is why I waste my time here. If I didn't have to spend some much time in front of a computer for work, I'd probably be at the club and you would never even know I exist.

Would I train with him? Sure, if I had the means I would train with everyone who offers it. There is no substitute for experience as long as you are honest about what is happening and what you want. I frequently make drop ins in places within my travel range and train with them. I make no challenges and I do what is asked and respect the customs. I am also honest when asked, which has lead to a few 'misunderstandings'.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
LOL....Oh man....

Take Care Don.

William Hazen
You too, I'm always happy to have a conversation.

- Don
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Old 08-31-2008, 10:25 PM   #217
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
William Hazen wrote:
Don't believe me. the go see Dan Hardin. I'll bet after a few sessions with him you "feel' exactly what I am talking about. I can't wait to see what that practice will do for our Aikido... Which technically is pretty darn good to begin with as a Martial Art.
Quote:
Don wrote:
Is he an average modern aikdoka? I don't talk about special people. I don't care about top MMA fighters, or unique skills some guy has. I care about the average guy. (That is not to say that I personally do not want to train with unique or top individuals.) If you take a room full of guys and send them to different aikido schools all over the country for 1 year, what results can you expect? Are they ready to defend themselves? Can they handle being punched in the face? How would they fair in a controlled fighting situation with a untrained opponent of equal or greater size and strength?
I care about the average guy too Don. Thats why I started doing this for the first time in my life.

A few things
Don't get me involved in defending Aikido™. On any other day I'm on Don's side.
And were someone to ever, hopefully, finally, please God someday........express a real understanding of my views- they would see I am advocating both sides!!!

1. Anyone asks me the best martial training to do? Aikido or Daito ryu? I tell them to go do judo, BJJ or MMA.

2. Anyone asks me what the finest skill in the world is? I tell them internal power / aiki.

What William and most others misunderstand is nowhere in that equation would I EVER.... E-V-E-R recommend training in Aikido™ to attain those goals. Not under any single person I have ever met, or know or have heard of. I most certainly do NOT agree with Wiliam that technically (Aikido™) is pretty darn good to begin with. In fact I think Aikido suffers serious technical flaws and even foundational errors in its approach to training a "martial" method to anyone.

What I am advocating is Aiki...do. Which is not to be confused with Aikido™. It is my intention, to become part of the solution. To train aikido teachers to regain the power that was in Ueshiba's vision in the first place, and re-instate the aiki arts as formidable martial arts. To make an art that is more than capable of handling grapplers as well as less narrow in scope threats. Aikido™ as I currently see it-is not. I’ll bet on the grappler-every time.

Don is right in that I am not to be used as an example. Don will be wrong about Aikido as aiki...do-in years to come- if I am successful in my own small contribution to the art. Notice I do not speak of Mike or Ark. While both are more than capable-Mike seems by his repeated commentary to be uninterested in the martial aspects of this. And I don't know what Ark's goals are.

Have great holiday everyone.

Last edited by DH : 08-31-2008 at 10:35 PM.
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Old 09-01-2008, 08:56 AM   #218
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I care about the average guy too Don. Thats why I started doing this for the first time in my life.

A few things
Don't get me involved in defending Aikido™.

And were someone to ever, hopefully, finally, please God someday........express a real understanding of my views- they would see I am advocating both sides!!!

1. Anyone asks me the best martial training to do? Aikido or Daito ryu? I tell them to go do judo, BJJ or MMA.

2. Anyone asks me what the finest skill in the world is? I tell them internal power / aiki.

What William and most others misunderstand is nowhere in that equation would I EVER.... E-V-E-R recommend training in Aikido™ to attain those goals.

In fact I think Aikido suffers serious technical flaws and even foundational errors in its approach to training a "martial" method to anyone.

What I am advocating is Aiki...do. Which is not to be confused with Aikido™.

It is my intention, to become part of the solution.

To train aikido teachers to regain the power that was in Ueshiba's vision in the first place, and re-instate the aiki arts as formidable martial arts.

To make an art that is more than capable of handling grapplers as well as less narrow in scope threats. Aikido™ as I currently see it-is not. I’ll bet on the grappler-every time.

Don is right in that I am not to be used as an example.

Don will be wrong about Aikido as aiki...do-in years to come-

if I am successful in my own small contribution to the art.
I have been wrong. I see the error in my ways. Godspeed. Aikido really needs someone to restore it, and make it impervious to the threat of grapplers who all are superb fighters over all other MA. I am glad to hear finally the best martial arts are judo, bjj and MMA, and not Aikido ™. And it is Aiki...do is what I am missing. Which you will be teaching all Aikido teachers to do. I will have my instructor contact you.

Last edited by Buck : 09-01-2008 at 08:59 AM.
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Old 09-01-2008, 09:16 AM   #219
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I will have my instructor contact you.
I thought you were an instructor... ooops, my bad. Sorry.
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Old 09-01-2008, 09:40 AM   #220
DH
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

I appreciate the sentiments in your response Phil. I really do. I balance it- in light of quite a few teachers already pursuing this type of training from 3rd dans to 6th dans, from fifteen years to forty years experience. More than are discussed here on Aikiweb. And that training is from various sources -not just me. Yet they are now training this way. They have a *very* high opinion of these skills. Two very high level teachers called the aiki it expresses "life changing."

When I consider listening to opinions these are the types of opinions I find to be more qualified.
a) due to their years-in and in many cases the breadth of their experiences in those years
b) due to their going out an actually feeling men with these skills and taking part in training it.

What was more telling to me was showing this to a person who actually trained and got their ranks -from- Ueshiba himself.. Who upon feeling what I was doing, and then having me explain it stated:.
This is Ueshiba's AIkido. They don't teach this anymore. It's not in modern Aikido.
When told about the debate on aikiweb- the response was. How would -they- know? Did they train with Ueshiba?

I join their highly qualified experience-which I do not have- with my own experiences outside of the aiki arts in wrestlers/judo, and MMA types for most of my life. So that is balancing view of my own.

Again, oddly enough the men of the first group, once feeling and seeing the power and sensitivity can now understand how their art can truly have the ability to handle men of the second group.

What we have here is a burgeoning movement *within* aikido to change aikido, back to aiki...do, that will empower it once again as a stellar martial art.
So while I appreciate your sentiments, Phil. I have a collection of other much more considerable experiences that I go by-to include people with decades of experience -in-aikido past your own. I find the ability to type and use a computer does not make everyone's opinions...equal.
For what it's worth I have no wish to be negative or judgemental. You make some pretty declarative statements that many here find unsupportable and counter to their experiences. Our opinions have not only been supported with personla expereinces0they have been vetted by some pretty serious seniors in your art.
Its sometimes wise to listen, Phil. I hope we can remain cordial.

Last edited by DH : 09-01-2008 at 09:55 AM.
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Old 09-01-2008, 11:17 AM   #221
Aikibu
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Well Well,

Don....

1.Too bad you were "lied" to...Good Luck with your training. As for me I had the exact opposite experiance after years of Judo Karate and other Arts. I still cross train allot but for me it's Aikido

Dan...

I think you took my words out of context I said Our Aikido (not Aikido) is technically good and I looked forward to adding an internal practice to it. I have trained with some internal folks... experianced Aiki "Power" ( Ever practice Ryu Te...Good Bagua...Gung Fu San Soo LOL) There is plenty of Documentation about the technical aspect of our Aikido out there. So I will just make the natural assumption you're completely ignorant of it other than You Tube and decided to lump it in with everything else. Many have made the same mistake. I am not saying our Aikido is better than others Aikido However we practice it being mindful that our practice MUST (not maybe... not perhaps.. not sometimes...) work "against" other Martial Arts in order for us to consider it a Martial Art.

I do partially agree with both you and Don. There is allot of Non Martial Aikido out there...but to dismiss all Aikido as "ineffective" is just plain ignorant

"This is not O'Sensei's" Aikido Well lets address the elephant in the room since you brought it up. According to you Dan You practice 8 hours a day everyday and have for the last 20+ years. I humbly submit this is the ONLY reason you are so far advanced. This was the primary reason O Sensei was so good He lived breathed and slept Aiki everyday.

Simply put it's the man...O'Sensei had a natural talent and he worked on it all day everyday. A True Budoka. Same with you. You put in the work you get the results. According to some that know you had some natural ability at the beginning and you just simply worked as hard as you could to develop it.

O'Sensei is dead. His Aikido is not. You want what he had? Put in the work...You seem to be giving it a shot. Most don't... so...

You got me beat there. I work out at best perhaps 1 to 2 hours everyday and that is evident when I step on the mat. Within seconds of working with someone I know how much time they put in to thier respective practice.

Back to Don...Again You have been saying the same thing for years and now I understand why...You have been lied to Well lets not forget it was a man who lied to you...Not Aikido...Sadly there are allot of Rex-Fu's out there but I submit the same suggestion to you that I have to others. Put in the work...make the changes...Show me the money...

William Hazen
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Old 09-01-2008, 12:00 PM   #222
DonMagee
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

I'd submit that I am out there putting in the work and following what I feel is the right path using the information I have at hand. As I've said, I train as much as possible, I travel when time and money allows and when I do I try to train with as many unique people as I can find.

What is the point of trying to change an art? I will do what I feel is right, and if I ever become a full time instructor I will teach them in the method I feel is right. In the mean time I will keep encouraging everyone to give what I feel is right a try.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-01-2008, 12:14 PM   #223
Aikibu
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I'd submit that I am out there putting in the work and following what I feel is the right path using the information I have at hand. As I've said, I train as much as possible, I travel when time and money allows and when I do I try to train with as many unique people as I can find.

What is the point of trying to change an art? I will do what I feel is right, and if I ever become a full time instructor I will teach them in the method I feel is right. In the mean time I will keep encouraging everyone to give what I feel is right a try.
Thank You Don. You have my respect and admiration. I look forward to reading more about your journey of discovery.

William Hazen
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Old 09-01-2008, 12:48 PM   #224
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

There is no point in changing the art. Why would you?

The only thing you can do is to form your own opinions, perspective, and methods.

I think that is what most of us in this discussion are doing. Learning to think for ourselves....making it our own.

Don, I agree, I pretty much do and teach what I know, and try and keep open to learn more when someone show me a better way.

I think this is all we can ask of ourselves and others.

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Old 09-01-2008, 04:07 PM   #225
Buck
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I appreciate the sentiments in your response Phil. I really do. Phil. I hope we can remain cordial.
You made me see the light that Aikido is lacking and you have the missing piece. I can't wait to get started.

I want to see the stuff Aikido is lacking and what will make Aikido work again, all of what I have been missing, like you said. I want to defeat any and all grapplers like you said. I am excited that your willing to re-teach all the Aikido teachers. I can't wait to see your Aiki...do. Like you said, you have what O'Sensei had- you are the only one who has made it to his skill level and you are willing to revolutionize Aikido by putting your Aiki..do into Aikido like you said. I can't wait for it to happen!
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