Why do some people hate Aikido?

Michael Gallagher wrote: I see. Well, I'm not one of them. It's just my belief, based on the influence of my kali instructors, that there's nothing wrong with any martial art being the way it is;

I agree. So long as it's proponents are being honest with people about what it is

Personally, I think reality lies somewhere in between the extremes of "Aikido can handle absolutely anything even if you never train against it" and "Aikido's ok but don't even think of using it for self defense."

I agree.

Michael Fooks wrote: I agree. So long as it's proponents are being honest with people about what it isI agree.

Mmmm, I'd stop short of accusing people of being deliberately dishonest (or even sounding like I'm doing it). I don't like to do that, nor do I like to specualte on why people say things online. It's been done to me and I hate it, so I don't like to return the favor. Or try not to, anyway. One of the tenants of Aikido is that everyone sees it differently and that's part of your interpretation of the art. I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt that people are honest in expressing their perceptions, experiences, and views. Whether they "sound" obnoxious online (God knows there's enough of those) is another matter, but I don't think someone says something I don't agree with is being "dishonest." Who knows? He/she could pin me to the ground like a bug in spite of all the tricks I know. Then who's been made a fool of?

I understand what you're saying there Michael - maybe I didn't express myself clearly.
Take the "aikido doesn't deal with kicks" or "aikido doesn't deal with groundfighting" type arguments. You've responded by saying that each art has the right to be what it is and there's nothing wrong with that. I agree. I've always said Aikido is wonderful and a great art for what it is. Where problems derive are when it is presented as something different.

Aikido as Aikido = great.
Aikido as the ultimate in practical fighting systems = a stretch (the way it is trained in most schools).

In other words I don't think most (sensible) people have any problem with Aikido being Aikido. Where the problems come are when it is claimed to be "all you need for all situations". I've seen this enough both online and in person (from senior ranks) for me to understand why people would be turned off.

Is it an issue of honesty? I think so. In some cases it is people deliberately being dishonest with potential punters, more often its people failing to be honest with themselves. Either way it's a misrepresentation when it happens.

Eureka....I got it, I got it!

1) Non-aikidoka hates aikidoka because aikidoka does pretty flips and smiles when doing them.
2) Non-aikidoka hates aikidoka because aikidoka does pretty flips while wearing pretty skirt. Damm they look good.
3) Non-aikidoka hates aikidoka because aikidoka exudes a zen like calmness when attempting to fold a hakama, others lesser beings would have cuss and groan in anger.

This is true story:
Once there was a martial arts demo, and when the aikidoka does their demo, there were lots of ooohs and aaaahs from the crowd. It is very artistic. Come judo's turn, every lay person knows that judo is a sport. So there was a notable absense of the ooohs and aaaahs.

Go figure.

Boon.

3) Non-aikidoka hates aikidoka because aikidoka exudes a zen like calmness when attempting to fold a hakama

Point of order your honour, some of us stuff the thing in a bag quickly when no-one is looking and use dry-cleaners.

Just to join in the "don't flail chorus" w.r.t. ground fighting, pain techniques don't work, atemi goes both ways and unbendable arm is also a really stupid thing to try with grappler (yes I tried it). About the only thing I've found that transferred at all well from aikido was actually the relaxation under pressure and being able to centre yourself - as the aikiweb close grappling squad members keep saying, principles not techniques.

aikido gave me prety good base that transferred. And also how to learn. My BJJ org is a hybrid of two groups - one that started as aikidoka (us) and the other that grew out of a karate club. The Karate guy has commented to me a couple of times that the aikidoka seem to pick up the technical niceties of BJJ more quickly. I think because we *don't* spar in Aikido we tend to spend more time looking at very fine detail of technique and that transfers well as a learning style to other arts.

Why isn't it ok to have a martial art that does not try to kill anyone the first night you join?

There are a few, more vicious pseudo aikido styles out there. Nihon Goshin is kinda like aikido but with a bunch of elbows and punches thrown in. It wasn't my cup of tea, but some people like it. I enjoy the peaceful side, not the ground and pound. Of course that doesn't mean I can't kick someone's butt if I want too. It means I am trying to attain something bigger.

Could someone translate Aikido for the "haters"? The word "harmony" is present. Most aikido students are trying to use harmony to develop their technique. This harmony is very difficult to find. It takes many years. Sure it is easier to break an arm using muscle or force. Anyone can do that, not everyone can blend and harmonize with their opponent.

As far as the "haters" go, when was the last time a real student of aikido went to a BJJ school and made fun of them? I studied BJJ for 5 years before the last 5 years in Aikido. I can clearly see the similarities. The techniques are there, just horizontal, not vertical. I admire anyone who dedicates their life to any martial art. Why bother wasting time with being critical of something different?

Jody Thompson wrote: Why isn't it ok to have a martial art that does not try to kill anyone the first night you join? There are a few, more vicious pseudo aikido styles out there. Nihon Goshin is kinda like aikido but with a bunch of elbows and punches thrown in. It wasn't my cup of tea, but some people like it. I enjoy the peaceful side, not the ground and pound. Of course that doesn't mean I can't kick someone's butt if I want too. It means I am trying to attain something bigger. Could someone translate Aikido for the "haters"? The word "harmony" is present. Most aikido students are trying to use harmony to develop their technique. This harmony is very difficult to find. It takes many years. Sure it is easier to break an arm using muscle or force. Anyone can do that, not everyone can blend and harmonize with their opponent. As far as the "haters" go, when was the last time a real student of aikido went to a BJJ school and made fun of them? I studied BJJ for 5 years before the last 5 years in Aikido. I can clearly see the similarities. The techniques are there, just horizontal, not vertical. I admire anyone who dedicates their life to any martial art. Why bother wasting time with being critical of something different?

Amen. You also wrote," Why bother wasting time with being critical of something different?"

That is a more interesting debate. The theme being discussed has been approached over and over from many angles. It seems to me that some really like to rediscuss these types of criticisms, over and over again because it reinforces their personal belief.
There wouldn't be an audience for this if we there were secure in our belief system. I have never cared what other martial art works or doesn't work. I have never cared much even if Aikido works in any given situation. I hope to admire and respect all martial artists and let people find out for themselves the truth they need. Having been in a dojo that has Goju ryu Karate and Hung Fa Yi, I hope to respect and admire them more than criticize since we're all on our own path.
Why do people hate? Because they love to hate. It's fun for them.

Sure it is easier to break an arm using muscle or force. Anyone can do that

I would suspect there are a LOT of people who couldn't break an arm using muscle or force -- especially the arm of any person who would actually look at them and decide to physically attack them. I'm somewhat sceptical if many people who make this claim have actually done it (I've never tried myself -- it's the kind of thing it would be hard to find volunteers for ).

Basia Halliop wrote: I would suspect there are a LOT of people who couldn't break an arm using muscle or force -- especially the arm of any person who would actually look at them and decide to physically attack them. I'm somewhat sceptical if many people who make this claim have actually done it (I've never tried myself -- it's the kind of thing it would be hard to find volunteers for ).

The last MMA show my club had in town had a great fight where this was played out. One of our club members caught his opponenet in a reverse armbar (think traditional judo armbar, only the both people are face down instead of face up). He executed the technique well, the mans arm bent back, then further, and further. You could see the veins bluging out of his elbow and it was hyperextended at least 30 degrees. He then took it even futher, but by this time he was so tired that he gave up the armbar and transitioned to a different position to rest and ground and pound. The round ended and this guy came out the next round swinging punches with this screwed up arm.

At the end of the fight it was obvious his arm was badly injured, but it was not broken. This is why I favor chokes above all else. Any crazy guy can ignore broken bones or dislocated joints. I have yet to meet anyone who can resist lack of bloodflow.

On the other side, I know a fighter who faught two weeks ago who got caught in an ankle lock so harsh that his ankle and knee poped and turned instantly black and blue. He was forced to tap from pain. However, agian, nothing was broken, but he has a long healing process ahead of him.

Ian Hurst wrote: which leads us nicely back into the topic of the thread... although to be fair he does have a point about many of the aikido demo vids you can find littering youtube - I still blame the skirt-wearing myself.

Yes, youtube seems to be the new place for 15 minutes of fame. It was the Jerry Springer-like talk shows.

Some of the Iaido videos that have been appearing make you really wonder what possessed them to display that for the world to see.

Jody Thompson wrote: Why isn't it ok to have a martial art that does not try to kill anyone the first night you join?

is any one actually saying that?

Michael Fooks wrote: I understand what you're saying there Michael - maybe I didn't express myself clearly ..... {snip}

Well, I think you've cleared it up quite nicely in the snipped portion; I think we see where each other is coming from and there's no further point to "argue" about it. Thanks!

Jorge Garcia wrote: ..... I have never cared what other martial art works or doesn't work. I have never cared much even if Aikido works in any given situation. I hope to admire and respect all martial artists and let people find out for themselves the truth they need. Having been in a dojo that has Goju ryu Karate and Hung Fa Yi, I hope to respect and admire them more than criticize since we're all on our own path .....

Amen to THAT. I like to hold up the example of my Kali instructor, who also is an instructor in Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do, who far from criticizing my decision to return to Aikido has supported it; he's never denied my joke that he would have dragged me to my first class by my ankles. His instructor, Guro Kevin Seaman, had a plaque on the wall of his old scool with the creed he wanted his students to follow, and the second from last was "I will refrain from criticizing other styles and systems; they all have something to offer." So while one can be sucked into such online disucssions more than one should (guilty), we should remember the real world isn't always so contentious, and may be just the opposite.

Jamal Jones wrote: 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 8 are major turn offs for me ....

You don't have to do it if you don't like it.

.... I'm notorious on other forums for bashing Aikidoka on other forums for these reasons .....

Point being? I can think of better ways to spend my spare time.

It's fun if you're 15...after that, it's kind of a chore...

B,
R

Jamal Jones wrote: notorious ... for bashing

Pretty much, a definition of "not aiki" ...

Michael Gallagher wrote: His instructor, Guro Kevin Seaman, had a plaque on the wall of his old scool with the creed he wanted his students to follow, and the second from last was "I will refrain from criticizing other styles and systems; they all have something to offer."

I think there's an important distinction between random bashing and uninformed sniping on the one hand, and informed critical thinking and discussion on the other. And yes, most aikido bashing - and other martial arts trash talk - on the internet falls squarely into the first group. It's about the difference between (for instance) "capoiera sucks and only an idiot would do it" and "capoiera is cool and a lot of fun but probably shouldn't be your first stop if you're mainly after self defence..."

In other words, all styles and systems have something to offer, but we need to think realistically about what that is, and not shy away from saying so because we're afraid of stepping on someone's toes.

Jamal Jones wrote: Huh? Come on it's fun.

To each his own; I don't see it.

Jamal Jones wrote: In reference to number 7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D26GZJwYIE

Hmm...well.

I've read some of Tomiki Sensei's writing. I'm not sure I agree with him in every sense, but what he's trying to get at is correct.

He talks about the importance of randori practice to complement kata practice. Competitions are supposed to be randori as I understand it. Watching this video and a couple of others on the same page, well, not randori. The tanto randori's were particularly disappointing.

For the record, if someone is just standing there holding a knife and not threatening me or mine in any way, I'm not going to go out of my way to be stabbed by the knife.

Randori is not sparring and sparring is not randori, but good randori addresses many of the same issues that sparring does. The good thing about randori is that you can set ground rules to accomodate the level of nage and increase the challenge as they get better. The bad thing is that sometimes the challenge is never increased and randori stays too polite.

There's also jiyu waza which - at least in my school - is practiced with no defined uke/nage relationship at dan level. I guess you could call that "competitive", but it never looks or feels that way. In fact, I've discovered in my own practive of jiyu waza that as soon as I get competitive I lose. Every time. I wind up on the mat. Every time.

I've heard much the same thing from people who spar. As soon as they let go of the competition and just take care of business they do better in competition. One value of sparring then, IMO, would be learning to get into that mindset in a stressful situation. If that's true, high-level randori and jiyu waza ought to serve as well for at least some of us (and the evidence I've seen supports this contention).

Maybe the idea that there is no competition in regular Aikido is something of a myth? Or maybe it's all in how you define competition?

David Sim wrote: . It's about the difference between (for instance) "capoiera sucks and only an idiot would do it" and "capoiera is cool and a lot of fun but probably shouldn't be your first stop if you're mainly after self defence..." In other words, all styles and systems have something to offer, but we need to think realistically about what that is, and not shy away from saying so because we're afraid of stepping on someone's toes.

10 points to David he has nailed it. and oftentimes what we see is somebody taking the latter approach and the faithful responding as if they were taking the former. I would say 90% of these type of online discussions are characterised by either over aggressiveness (bashing) or over defensiveness (fighting the straw man).

'm notorious on other forums for bashing Aikidoka on other forums for these reasons

I've heard we make fun of others for what we fear most about ourselves.
When i was younger I was probably deep in the bashing crowd (for various other things, not MA).
I'd like to think either age has opened my eyes or aikido has.
Given the fact that there are still "older" dudes out there who continue to fixate (sp?) on bashing people just for the sake of bashing, I'm thinking aikido probably had a bigger effect.

I asked for reasons why people hate aikido so I'm not gonna harp on ya Mr Jones for your answer nor am i going to be all peace and love do unto others but I think you'll really appreciate aikido more and life in general when you stop caring so much about what other people do, what they choose to do with their time and whether they want to emulate a culture or not.


I agree, people hate (aikido) because they love to hate.

Jamal Jones wrote: 10) Many Aikidoka have a Japanee fetish. I've been told personally by people that they started Aikido because they have an interest in Japanese culture. There was even a thread on here a while ago "How Samurai is Aikido" I can go on and on about this but you get what I'm saying so I'll stop.

is there something wrong with an interest in another culture?

Michael Riehle wrote: .... Maybe the idea that there is no competition in regular Aikido is something of a myth? Or maybe it's all in how you define competition?

My Kali instructor is always yelling at me not to try and "win" when I spar. So you can be competitive without even realizing it. Incidents like that give validity to "True vicory is victory over the self."

Michael Gallagher wrote: My Kali instructor is always yelling at me not to try and "win" when I spar. So you can be competitive without even realizing it. Incidents like that give validity to "True vicory is victory over the self."

I never try to win, I just try to be the last guy standing.

Seriously though, I try to play at the level of my partner, unless i'm getting ready for competition, then I try to win everytime.