The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Ranch budo? Well I'm not much of a MA-ist, and I should probably just keep my trap shut, but I do know:

1. Pounding steel fence posts will destroy your back, shoulders and arms unless you are sinking down through good posture. Setting up a quick line in five minutes to corral some sheep, it's easy to see the "experts" vs. the strugglers trying to muscle it through. Setting up a mile of fence will teach a few things about efficient movement.
2. Pushing a bull or stubborn cow through a chute they don't want to go through is frustrating unless you see a balance point to push them on. Then it's easy to get them to walk. Can't do much on an animal that outweighs you by several hundred pounds w/o a bit of structure. I don't know if this is kuzushi since I don't really know what that is, but whatever it is, it works better than a electric prod.
3. Holding down a steer for a branding with your arms alone teaches humility and gets dusty. Centering your weight over their hips gets the job done. Some joint locks there as well.
4. Easy to see a good western rider on a horse: they slouch and look lazy until you realize all the communication with the horse is from the dantien, no wait, tanden, no wait, heck it's just where your butt- and belly-weight is. Use of spurs and reins shows an ill-trained animal or a new rider; it's the knee pressure and the balance of your body that tells the horse where you want to go.
5. Well shoot, cowboy boots hurt your heels and arches unless you see that they naturally pitch you forward on that point around the ball of your feet, whatever fancy Chinese word it was I learned then forgot. Anyhow, then it's good posture. Helps when you are riding as well as standing around.
6. A real master of kuzushi might be a border collie. I don't know how they do it.

I can't make any of this work in the dojo, but it's something that makes the work on the ranch move a little easier. Maybe if somebody just stood still on the mat while I got out the post pounder. I suppose if I were a good roper I'd have some other things to say. Newaza on a steer? I'll think about it. Ukemi from being bucked off? Luckily I haven't had to think about that since I was six or so.

Sorry to interrupt. My best regards,

Chuck Clark wrote: Good Post Dan, I have seen many old farmers and cowboys in my youth in Oklahoma that demonstrated many of the internal skills being discussed when throwing a bale of hay into a wagon or dumping a steer on it's side during spring branding, or, as you said, shoving a horse or cow around, etc. .

Chuck I agree wholeheartedly with what you say and have said as much on several forums over the years. As a youth the strongest man I knew was Neb Cook. He plowed with a two mule team in the Wabash River bottoms near my house. He had strength far beyond what he should have given his size and age. I believe the connection with the earth is critical. Ueshiba was a farmer and loved to farm his whole life. I believe it was a functional part of his budo development. I believe it helped him develop his power. One can not work a field long with a tense body. I have hoed enough rows and tossed enough bails to now. The power and techniques used are not tricks they are tools. I know a man that can drive a tenpenny nail (five stroke nail) with one smooth relaxed stroke of the hammer and he can do it all day long. It is not a trick it is a developed skill that took years to prefect. Some people do Ki tricks and that is the sad part because they believe the trick is the real thing. They are conditioned to believe and worse yet they condition their students to believe it. From the time I was 12 years old until I was 23 (with a little break for the army) I worked in Valentine Packing house. Five twelve year olds would shake hides. We would take cow hides covered in rock salt and maggots and shake them before throwing them into the tanning vat. The skill of relaxed work was passed from the older boy to the newest by working at his side. That was my first introduction to Ki. It took several weeks to learn. I moved to the killing room floor where I learned to kill a bovine and sheep with one swing of a ten pound hammer. I am sick to my stomach about the suffering I caused until I developed the skill to do it right the first time. That was my second interdiction to Ki. The nest job was in the hanging and boneing room. This is where a 5 foot five inch140 pound boy learned to swing a beef side up and have beef quarter cut loose on his shoulder with out going to his knees or worse then carry it to the truck and hang it on a hook and do this all day long. That was my third introduction to Ki. That took the longest to learn. I watched little old men put me to shame on that job. It is my own misguided belief that trying to understand Ki in martial context by it's self is useless. Aikido helped me refine those tools and put them in other context as well.

Well rasberries "phhhtttp! "... to ya Dennis.
I was the one mentioning farm work and trying to get people to re-think the pragmatism of it all and its early correlation to possible entry or segue into Budo. Well at least on a basic level.
Good post by the way.

Naturally it begs the question then -due to the huge corollary of the men who work-If I push on the jo? Where does the force go?

And Chuck I'm still not going to let ya hit me with it.
Cheers
Dan

Dan Harden wrote: Well rasberries "phhhtttp! "... to ya Dennis. I was the one mentioning farm work and trying to get people to re-think the pragmatism of it all and its early correlation to possible entry or segue into Budo. Well at least on a basic level. cheers anyway...and good post by the way. Dan

Ok I'll give the devil he due By the way are you reading these things as I write them or are you a speed reader?

Dan is everywhere....

In fact, unless I miss my guess, he probably knows just what I'm thinking right now!

Best,
Ron (excellent group of posts...I can't even compete)

No
I Just came in from re-oiling my deck and was sitting having a break while it dried and turned on the lap top. I took the day off to work. Yeah me

Now if the oil spreads with a pole.......never mind

I'm going out for the night with my son so ya can kick at me whilst I'm away.

cheers
Dan

What drives the shovel?
What pushed the horse?
We can resist and absorb the push of a jo with those very lessons. More can be added to dissipate the force or concentrate and project. But the building blocks are right there in the economy of....... work.

Dennis Hooker wrote: This is where a 5 foot five inch140 pound boy learned to swing a beef side up and have beef quarter cut loose on his shoulder with out going to his knees or worse then carry it to the truck and hang it on a hook and do this all day long. That was my third introduction to Ki. That took the longest to learn. I watched little old men put me to shame on that job. It is my own misguided belief that trying to understand Ki in martial context by it's self is useless. Aikido helped me refine those tools and put them in other context as well.

Hi Dennis:

Well, I agree that some of "ki" is along those lines of efficiencies, although it's more complicated than that. And even if someone is learning to do those skills, there's still hard work to make it more powerful. But then there's the part of ki that has to do with the breathing and enhancing the fascial stuff and I don't believer your examples even touched that one. But I'm just expressing my opinion. In some of the cases that you're talking about, there may well be some partial overlap with the "jin" or "kokyu-nage" type forces, BTW, so I'm trying to make impartial observations.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

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Mike Sigman wrote: Hi Dennis: Well, I agree that some of "ki" is along those lines of efficiencies, although it's more complicated than that. And even if someone is learning to do those skills, there's still hard work to make it more powerful. But then there's the part of ki that has to do with the breathing and enhancing the fascial stuff and I don't believer your examples even touched that one. But I'm just expressing my opinion. In some of the cases that you're talking about, there may well be some partial overlap with the "jin" or "kokyu-nage" type forces, BTW, so I'm trying to make impartial observations. Regards, Mike Sigman

Mike, I believe one has to possess this traits you talk about in order for the correct flow to exist. Many of the teachers I have trained with say Ki development is a natural part of the training and will happen naturally. That is one of the causes for the early schism in Aikido. Separation of Ki development into it's own discipline. The feeling was, and is, if you train correctly ki will develop naturally. Now I have not studied the Chinese arts but I know that breathing is the thread that runs through all of what we are talking about. Kokyu is much more that just breath. It is the flow of energy between things and the rhythms of nature. It is knowing how to remove the conflict between one's self and the ones environment. I believe that was what I was being taught even though many people may disagree. Hell I'm just a really a country boy and I admit most of this is way beyond me. I just do what I do because of what I am and what people made me. Without working in the flow of the rhythms I would have ceased to be long ago. I believe the foundation laid for me lead me to Aikido.

Mike Sigman wrote: Hi Dennis: BTW, so I'm trying to make impartial observations. Regards, Mike Sigman

Mike I wish I knew enough to be impartail!!


Have a great weekend

Dennis

Dennis Hooker wrote: For years I have been fascinated by Ed Leedskalnin http://www.coralcastle.com/ what was his source of power? The Army Corp of Engineers can't figure it out either.

This may give you some ideas about it -- See this:
http://www.theforgottentechnology.com/Page1.htm

Pay attention to the position at the start and the end.

If you read his descriptive material and schematics you'll see its all about extending weight to the periphery and manipulating the rotation of the center of mass for leverage -- basically, a kokyunage toss -- about three feet -- of a 20,000 # block

Really, it is very cool.

Nifty guy.

Cordially,
Erick Mead

Hi Dennis
What I'm talking about has more to do with aligning parts of my body from my feet up through my legs and sacrum to spine, and head. No shouldering, no shoving. Just like the way you would use pitch fork all day long with hay, or shoveling sand as a laborer and not kill your arms and shoulders. The load is in the legs, hips and spine. There is a way to absorb the force in the stick right down to the ground-without using much else. The real key-not ki- is that I create and alignment that allows my body to stand and not to flex or create a concentrate flexed force anywhere-especially the arms and shoulders. Thus the force can run through me evenly or be moved to different places. Moved to different places??? I know I know....what?

Now, we can "add" to this with bridging various aprts of the body, by using vectors along a current or base, by bleeding off one side and powering another, and.........by the king....Breathing. Breath control-.....not dreamy, connecting to the universe breath control- I mean working it on the inside of ....me and sending it. Having a very active and palpable diaphragm to make a either a held for projecting or dissipated pressure. Breath power is a sort of add-on.
Anyway....thats a basic start.



Cheers
Dan

Johan Look wrote: That was an interesting article - I've always been interested in Tohei's stuff but from my experience with Aikidoka from Ki society and Kenkyukai, most of the people at my level or above have the same trouble with the ki stuff that I do. Instructors of 30 or 40 years were able to do stuff to me, but that's pretty normal no matter what Aikido they do. I can't seem to see that they necessarily have a greater level of "ki" development that at any other dojo - kind of what the initial writer of the article was saying. I have noticed other health benefits from "ki" breathing though. It's interesting though that later down the article that Bob Jones implies that ki breathing is the easiest way to develop ki, but he also mentions that it is not meant to improve Aikido.

That forum exchange is several years old. If you're interested in ki breathing, Koichi Tohei recently released "Ki Breathing which was on the best seller list in Japan. His son, Shinichi Tohei is translating it into English on his Ki Weblog.

Dennis Hooker wrote: Many of the teachers I have trained with say Ki development is a natural part of the training and will happen naturally. That is one of the causes for the early schism in Aikido. Separation of Ki development into it's own discipline. The feeling was, and is, if you train correctly ki will develop naturally.

Well, there is a linear relationship between ki and strength, in one sense. The body "ki" was a way of explaining how strength worked, within the ki/qi paradigm. But that's only a small aspect of it. I'm not a follower of Koichi Tohei, although I've read a lot of his stuff in the same way that I read everyone's stuff, but the "schism" developed largely because Tohei split off from the Hombu dojo and decided to make the workings of ki the banner under which he started his own faction. His rationale was that Aikido was becoming more and more a technique, etc., thing and the ki part was being left out. If ki developed naturally, I don't think he'd have had a foothold worth a hoot, to be honest.

I think someone can "flow" whether they have any ki skills or not... so seeing flow doesn't imply ki to me. I do think that exactly what ki does can be analysed, just as how Ed Leedskalnin moved those stones can be analysed.... if anyone had seen him do it. IIRC, when he was forced to move the castle to another location, he borrowed someone's truck and he had some chains and pullies, but no one was allowed to watch him do it. If they had, we'd know exactly how Ed did it.

Erick's website showing the concrete slabs is a good one (I didn't know that one was still around; saw him on TV some years ago) and while I don't think it explains all kokyunage throws (I'm unsure what throws are NOT kokyunage throws, TBH), there is a principle in the use of those slabs that is very pertinent to the use of kokyu-power, in my opinion. It would probably be a good place to analyse what kokyu-power is.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Ted Ehara wrote: If you're interested in ki breathing, Koichi Tohei recently released "Ki Breathing which was on the best seller list in Japan. His son, Shinichi Tohei is translating it into English on his Ki Weblog.

Frankly, I think Tohei's "Ki Breathing" is something different from the breathing for ki development that was used in Japan and China and which Ueshiba himself used. For instance, take a look at the website:
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/ew88808.htm

Misogi-kyo was one of the thirteen religious groups designated "Sect Shinto" (shuha shinto) by the Meiji government. It has never been a large movement (in 1995 it reportedly had a membership of 99,180), but, like the better-known Kurozumi-kyo, with which it shares several features, its early history and teachings vividly illustrate the religious world of late Tokugawa Japan. The group has its origins in the activities and teachings of Inoue Masakane (1790-1849), son of a samurai employed in the domain of Tatebayashi (in today's Gunma Prefecture).[13] When Inoue was eighteen,[14] he practiced Zen under the guidance of Tetsuyu Zenni, an Obaku nun in the lineage of Shoto Mokuan (1611-1648). A year later, he set off on a journey to seek the guidance of various Shinto, Confucian, and Buddhist teachers, and eventually completed a stint in the Chinese medicine school of Nagata Tokuhon (1513-1630). By the age of twenty-five, Inoue began training under the Kyoto physiognomist Mizuno Nanboku. He underwent a strict regimen, carrying out menial work for his teacher and restricting himself to simple food and dress. It was reportedly during this time that Inoue learned to regulate his breath by concentrating it below his navel. After mastering the disciplines of the Nanboku school, the young man (now twenty-eight) moved to Edo and began practicing divination (under the name Shueki). The following year he added finger-pressure therapy (shiatsu ryoho) to his growing repertoire of physical and spiritual skills.

From about this time Inoue started to formulate his own system of therapeutic arts. He began to attract a small following, supporting himself in the meantime by practicing medicine (under the name Toen). But his search was not yet over. At the age of forty-four he happened to hear some Shinto teachings from an old woman in the Tatebayashi domainal residence in Edo; he is said to have been profoundly moved and subsequently had a "divine dream" (shinmu) that inspired him to take up the "way of the gods." The next year (1834) he returned to Kyoto and enrolled in the Shirakawa (Hakke) school of Shinto, where he was initiated into ritual ablution (misogi) and, reportedly, breath-control practices.[15] When he was forty-seven, Inoue received approval from the Jingikan to carry out Shinto worship rituals, and, two years later, he was permitted to supervise miko ceremonial duties. In 1840, he became shrine priest of the Umeda Shinmei Shrine in Musashi (under the name Shikibu).

Once he obtained this official status, Inoue began to propagate in earnest the purification rituals that were to become the central practices of Misogi-kyo. But by 1841, his teaching activities had aroused the suspicions of the Superintendent of Temples and Shrines (Jisha bugyo), and he was imprisoned along with his wife, Onari. The Shirakawa house appealed to the Superintendent to remove the charges, but with little success--though Inoue was transferred to the custody of the Umeda community. The following year, he wrote a summary of his teachings and presented it to the authorities, presumably in order to exonerate himself.[16] But the office of the Superintendent continued to view Inoue and his teachings as a potential threat to the public order, and exiled him to Miyakejima.[17] He is said to have occupied himself there by healing the ill, praying for rain, building shrines, supervising silkworm cultivation, and building reservoirs. He died in exile at the age of sixty.

Inoue's followers persevered in their efforts to spread his teachings, provoking the shogunate to suppress the group further in 1862. After the Restoration, however,Inoue's wife, his senior disciple, Uneme, and Inoue himself (posthumously) were pardoned by the new Meiji state.[18] In 1872 the movement was officially recognized under the name Tohokami-ko, and allowed to propagate its teachings publicly. The group changed its name to Misogi-kyo in 1876, and in 1894 the government designated it an independent religious sect.[19]

The Misogi techniques encompassed the common practice of storing pressure in the tanden area for building up power. The legendary Miki Nakayama probably got her famous strength from these sorts of practices. If you read books on Kalaripayattu, Chinese martial arts, etc., you'll see that this is indeed a famous technique (although it's more complicated than just breathing to the navel, of course).

Tohei's "ki breathing" seems to almost deliberately NOT talk about this sort of thing, oddly enough.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Dan Harden wrote: The Jo -trick is the result of good body skills.

That's hard to say IMO based on either a still photo or a video, some of which the details are hidden.

All I know is that if you Google

Ueshiba trick

this thread is the first thing that comes up. That tells me that Ueshiba did not place emphasis on tricks, else hits of his writings discussing this trick would come up.

This is an interesting read

http://ejmas.com/pt/ptart_garrelts_0303.html

Justin Smith wrote: This is an interesting read http://ejmas.com/pt/ptart_garrelts_0303.html

Interesting read indeed. Dan would you care to comment since, you mentioned you can do the Jo "trick"...

Mike Sigman wrote: You should go see Chen Xiao Wang when he visits Germany this year. It will open your eyes to what these additives can do. All the Best. Mike

Mike,

You mean this guy?

http://media.putfile.com/Liaobaivschen


Not sure what advantage all those 'additves' have given him, if any against a simple aggressive attack...

Paul Nowicki wrote: Interesting read indeed. Dan would you care to comment since, you mentioned you can do the Jo "trick"...

Well sure
He cant' make it work.
I mean.....after all he did buy the video and watch it. And he did try it once and couldn't make it work. So obviously it can't be done
And then..........he did write his findings on the net and you guys read it.
Is this martial arts training in the 21st century?

Look up the word myopic.

Dan

Bryan Bowman wrote: Mike, You mean this guy? http://media.putfile.com/Liaobaivschen Not sure what advantage all those 'additves' have given him, if any against a simple aggressive attack...

And how would he do against an attack where takedowns are used, or kicks, or strikes to the face, etc., instead of just polite pushing with the hands and circling of each other?

Bryan Bowman wrote: Mike, You mean this guy? http://media.putfile.com/Liaobaivschen Not sure what advantage all those 'additves' have given him, if any against a simple aggressive attack...

He didn't use any real additives other than to invite the Liao Bai to give it his best shot. Chen Xiao Wang did not respond at all... he simply let the other guy attack. And by the way, as a general rule when you want to "push hands" you don't suddenly dive in like that. Looks like twice Liao Bai knocked himself back (lost his glasses in the end one) and Chen Xiao Wang didn't catch Liao Bai's angle very well twice, so he didn't make Liao Bai knock himself back on those occasions.

CXW has a habit of just telling you to go for it and he doesn't do anything aggressive while just letting you take your best shots. The only thing you have to watch out for is when he says "OK, now my turn" because doom is coming.

Mike

Mike Sigman wrote: I don't get it, Jason, if you don't mind expanding. Or maybe I just disagree. The common variant I've seen of the jo-trick is for someone to stick their arm straight out in front of them and let a volunteer try to move it sideways or up and down. It's a demonstration of the connecting power of six-directions training, combined with some force-path controls. For Ueshiba to extend the moment-arm even further with a jo was a bit of embellishment (and maybe a little too showy, since he never appears to be able to hold it very long in the available film clips), but still part of the same trick. I see his point, as will most people who are familiar with the principles. I say truthfully, that he does a pretty good job of trying to make the extended trick work, even though I also so that his Uke's tend to be overly cooperative and deferential. But then, I have a cause-and-effect mind. How does "sincerity" have anything to do with a mechanical trick, if I may ask? Regards, Mike Sigman

the object of the jo trick is to lead your partner's or partners' force then negate it in any combinations of kata omote/ura

Mike Sigman wrote: No offense, Jason, but those statements tell me nothing but vague assertions of your opinions. And I can think of counter-examples without even trying, so I'll politely say "pass". Nope, there's nothing ethereal about it. Simple physiological skill that can be developed more extensively than most people realize. I have no idea why Heisenberg's uncertainty principle would be invoked in an Aikido discussion, other than as techno-babble. One should note that Heisenberg's uncertainty principle does not say "everything is uncertain." Rather, it tells us very exactly where the limits of uncertainty lie when we make measurements of sub-atomic events. Regards, Mike Sigman

no they are science facts that i have consistently exercised .where you understand a portion of a "martial art" in excursion form but no real depth of hand to hand application in a fight ,you can never see it .

Justin Smith wrote: And how would he do against an attack where takedowns are used, or kicks, or strikes to the face, etc., instead of just polite pushing with the hands and circling of each other?

I don't know what Liao Bai said, but he apparently also said something along the lines of "what would you do if...?" and CXW said OK, do it.

But if you go up to him and say "what would you do against....?" he'll also say go ahead. Push hands stuff is just for fun. If you want to fight, you need to go up and tell him you want to fight for real... he's taken real challenges his whole life. Instead of "what would he do if....?" you need to just go to one of his seminars and tell him you want to do it, Justin, instead of just theorizing from behind a keyboard.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Jason DeLucia wrote: the object of the jo trick is to lead your partner's or partners' force then negate it in any combinations of kata omote/ura

Oh, I disagree. Ueshiba usually ended the demo with some sort of throw, but it was a demonstration of his power and a pretty interesting one, but in every example I ever saw, the trick was actually beyond his real abilities (although he may have been able to do it to a limited extent when he was younger and stronger). In every example I saw he had to slip it or the pushers had to be overly cooperative. It was a demonstration of his ki-related skills and the essential component of the demo is exactly the same as the component that Tohei uses when someone pushes on his forearm and Tohei doesn't move. Exactly the same principle.

Regards,

Mike Sigman