Aikido challenges today

"Low level aikido directly pushes, pulls, lifts, yanks, cranks, hits them to soften ' em up, and let's not forget threatens (exactly how does one threaten with non-violence?). A good example (for Michael Varin) would be ikkyo from a cross wrist grab. If you swing your arm up in a herky jerk motion, and then plow into them hoping to push their elbow into their ear - you my friend are directly lifting and directly pushing, then you will probably follow that up with drectly cranking them over, and then directly yanking them down to the ground."


Maybe our schools have different times of accomplishment. I would say that in my school (under Patrick Cassidy, Iwama style) people stop doing this long before shodan. Not just the gifted, but everyone, reaching this level of ability is considered rudimentary, and our teacher would not let us do any less then this.

I think our schools just achieve things at different times, I can see how if this represents shodan to you that you would be apprehensive about my skills, this is not the case.

-Chris Hein

Jorgen Matsi wrote: I have to disagree with you very strongly. First - how could a martial art be more successful against multiple partners if it can't handle one in any situation? I'm not talking about aikido or anything but that statement when made about any art is weird and illogical at best.

Jorgen, I suggest you read post #94 by M. Varin:

Xu said, "Aikido was designed from combat purpose to allow soldiers to handle multiple opponents...", and there was some replies that if it wasn't designed for one how could it handle many. Think about this, on the battlefield soldiers have weapons, be it rifles today or swords in days gone by. These weapons kill in an instant compared with bare hands where it is a battle of attrition. You can easily dispatch someone with a sword and move to the next. It's lightning fast and there aren't situations where you claw back into the fight like with bare hands. In this environment, having a fluid mind that is able to let go of things quickly is one of the biggest assets. Just like jiyuwaza or randori from aikido, not like randori from judo.

Now to add my few cents... think about it, it is not as illogical nor weird as you might think. Again I feel that your idea of combat is too narrowly minded and biased towards the typical one to one type of slug fest, which will naturally favour the one who is physically superior and stronger. My training is not designed for this type of slugging out. There is another thing Jorgen, not everyone you meet who wants to fight with you should challenge him head on. What about sizing him out, make a psychological evaluation if you can take him out? If you can't, there are other ways rather than slugging it out.

Maybe it is my way of training all these years, all those technique I learn, all those waza I learn are just alphabets to prepare me for the randori type situation. My training prepares me for the chaotic situation of group situation; which I am more comfortable than say a one to one combat situation. To put it further, for me, it would be easier to throw, trip, push/shove a moving person than say a committed dug in person for me.

Having said that, I am not a professional UFC type fighter, hence those type of one to one type slug out fight is pretty redundant to me. I felt compel to post here because I felt that too many of the posters here emphasize the one to one fight that is typical of sport/competition and sort of putting the scenario which aikido work best (chaotic, multiple attacker scenario) on the background

The last thing we need is to teach women standing wrist locks on nonresistant men making them believe they can actually apply them. I have never ever seen ANY woman in TMA that could actually resist a bigger determined opponent. Because they never try what's it really like. And there's a pretty good chance a broken finger or a wrist does not stop a rapist.

No, standing wrist lock alone is not going to make non-compliant opponent go down, that much is true. There are other elements you need to include (kuzushi, tsukuri, tai sabaki). Just water and flour alone down make bread. If you are a genuine student of aikido... you should realize this. If you are a beginner... ask your sensei for further clarification and if you are not a student of aikido... join a class to explore further. Broken finger and wrist don't stop a rapist? I beg to ask you, is this factual or formed from your own opinion? .

And obviously you have not much grappling experience because then you would know that the easiest to overcome strength and size is on the ground (comparing to striking distance and clinch).

No, I am not a grappler. I am an "Atemi Kind of Guy(TM)" (AKG) .

Chris,

That would certainly be fair enough! I didn't think you would take it that way. That was actually the lowest level I could imagine, and it would not be considered 3rd kyu in my school - and no didn't actually think you were there. I gave a simple example. I think the question is are all of your techniques sophistocated. For instance, I would be much more interested in the opinion of someone who can do iriminage without directly pulling or pushing - I've never met a shodan who could do it - I'm still working on it - but getting closer! Honestly, if you can do that, and you can't get your open-handed techniques working outside of aikido then please explain the difficulties. Otherwise, and you still want to speak about aikido period (not just your aikido), then please consider reflecting on my previous post.

Peace - really -
Rob

I'll say this, I've seen many very high ranking instructors around here (I will not name names, but 6th dan and above), I am impressed with very few of them, often when I go to seminars my technique is much cleaner, and I'm not the only one saying this. I feel my skills are fine. Maybe yours are too, I don't know, but I do not attach time, or rank to ability (not that time can't make you better, it's just that it's not a guarantee). I know if many of the higher ranking Aikidoka I am speaking found them selves in a confrontation they would fail, in-fact I've seen this happen, people who have spent more time and have more rank then you and I combined. My opinions are Representative of what I've seen, maybe I'm not right, but no one has presented an argument to change my mind. In all fairness you would probably have to show me, which to date no one has.

-Chris Hein

Hey Chris,

Is that Shihan (6th Dan), Whatisname shihan, the same guy you know that I know that belongs to a dojo named.... Aikiddojutsudomawa-ryu McDojo? Yeah that guy... he can't swat a fly.

Chris Hein wrote: .... It however is not a good empty handed system. Will it work empty handed, sure ....

I won't argue that there are a lot of empty-hand areas Aikido doesn't cover. It doesn't, period. That doesn't mean it's doesn't work empty handed at all. Remember that the Aikido techniques aren't one-trick ponies. Their setups are off a variety of grabs, some strikes, and grab-and-strike combinations. They are also used to counter each other. I don't see why one can't dope out how to use them against other things with a little time and effort, especially given the sort-of endorsement from some MMA guys I found on usenet.

"It however is not a good empty handed system. Will it work empty handed, sure, so will a butter knife turn a screw. Was it designed to turn a screw, no. Do I have a problem with butter knives, no. Do I have a problem with screws, no. Butter knives were not designed to turn screws."

-That quote is from me.

If you look at my posts, I never said it dosent ever work. I think sometimes somethings work, but my point is that it's not a good empty handed system, it was designed to be used when armed. I'm sure someone somewhere has used all the techniques of Aikido empty handed, but that dosent mean it's good for that.

-Chris Hein
We keep comming back to people thinking that I'm saying Aikido is worthless or something, all I'm trying to get acrost is that it's a GREAT weapons system, and a very POOR empty handed system.

Before this ends, I meant to say Hi Garret a long while ago!

Chris,

I'm not confused about what you have been saying. How about this: If someone somewhere has used all the techniques of Aikido empty handed, then _that_ person is qualified to make sweeping generalizations about empty handed aikido (I'd say that person is not low-level). It won't make them necessarily 100% right, but no one that couldn't do all the techniques of Aikido empty handed would have _any_ credibility in arguing that point either way.

Concerning your anecdote about Tohei, I suggest you read the thread called: Tohei throwing Judoka in Hawaii?
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7978

I certainly agree that there are a lot of people who got promoted for other reasons than martial ability which undermines the credibility of aikido. I'm sorry that's been your experience with many higher dans - who I'm sure are very loyal.

Rob

Chris Hein wrote: .... If you look at my posts, I never said it dosent ever work. I think sometimes somethings work, but my point is that it's not a good empty handed system, it was designed to be used when armed. I'm sure someone somewhere has used all the techniques of Aikido empty handed, but that dosent mean it's good for that.

And as I said, that Aikido is derived from weaponry isn't a news flash to anyone who knows anything about the art. The empty hand parts of Kali are also evolved from weapons techniques. Does that mean they're "poor" empty and or not desinged for it? No. Just the same ideas are applied to different scenarios.

This is honestly starting to get silly.

Rob,
We apparently have different ideas. Maybe someday I can show you what I mean, maybe someday you can show me how I can't throw you or what ever. This is degrading into a "yes it is. no it's not"argument, that I believe nether one of us need.

Michael,
All empty handed martial arts are probably derived from weapons systems. I read a nice essay once on how western boxing was derived from European fencing. The thing is, the effective systems, those that regularly fight empty handed have spent time developing that. They use the original ideas of the weapons system and rework things from the idea of fighting empty handed. These things different depending on what range they plan to work in, for boxing they developed beyond the jab, and made a usable syllabus of Punch's covers, footwork,combos. I'm sure a modern boxer doesn't know jack about fencing, and a modern fencer would be terrible at boxing. This doesn't mean that ether is bad at what he trains, just that he docent train for that type of thing. No one has really developed Aikido for empty handed use. There is not a strong and agreed apon syllabus of headlock escapes, and clinching methods, practical striking skills etc. Thins necessary for empty handed fighting. As for Kali, I've played with some very good dudes, they are awesome with sticks in their hands, but when we went closer range, we were both using an awful lot of Brazilian Jiu jutsu.

-Chris

Chris,

Well, okay. Maybe I'm the one not paying attention to the discussion. I thought _you_ were the one saying that aikido open-hand technique didn't work, not me. I'm sure I never said you couldn't throw me. But hey, I wish you well in your training.

Rob

Chris Hein wrote: ..... No one has really developed Aikido for empty handed use .....

The problem with this claim is that Aikido's techniques are derived from Japanese jujitsus systems, including Daito-ryu Akijutsu. You want to argue that jujitsu is not a good empty hand system, good luck. It doesn't pass muster. If it has empty hand techniques, it's an empty hand system.

..... There is not a strong and agreed apon syllabus of headlock escapes, and clinching methods, practical striking skills etc ....

Yeah. So?

Boxing may have the striking and clinching, but you ever see a boxer worry about getting out of a headlock? No, of course not. You want to tell a boxer it's incomplete because of that? I don't think anyone would dream of that. Oh, and why did you leave groin kicks off your list? Some guys I knew back when I started MA in 1985 liked low kicks, such as groin kicks and low side kicks to the knee; they'd use fakes to divert your attention when they went for those. Not mentioned? Does this mean the systems you like are lacking? Ooops.

I'll be the first to agree that there are a lot of things Aikido doesn't do. No argument. But it's a long way from that to saying "It was never designed as an empty hand system." Sorry, but for me, that's totally ridiculous. That's a leap too far IMHO.

..... As for Kali, I've played with some very good dudes, they are awesome with sticks in their hands, but when we went closer range, we were both using an awful lot of Brazilian Jiu jutsu. -Chris

I suggest you someday take a formal class in it, preferably LaCoste/Inosanto Kali. You'll gain a better appreciation for what's going on, and in how the empty hand system works.

If I'm not mistaken the dog brothers are under inosanto.

I said the syllabus depends on what range you were working in, boxers don't grapple. more importantly I was pointing out the way it works and not the particulars.

I think Jujitsu was designed by samurai, who were worried about someone who was armed, I believe Japanese jujitsu falls in the same class as Aikido when it comes to empty handed techniques.

I'm sick of fighting about this, I feel like I've enriched my life and training. Thats fine by me, if you wish to look at this in your life and training, cool, send me a message we'll chat it up. Otherwise I'm done with this.

-Chris Hein

Chris Hein wrote: If I'm not mistaken the dog brothers are under inosanto.

You're right, they are. However, I don't think it would hurt you to look into formal Kali classes. In particular, the empty hand joint locsk, which are very similar to Aikido's, but done off things like jabs.

I said the syllabus depends on what range you were working in, boxers don't grapple. more importantly I was pointing out the way it works and not the particulars.

I must have missed that.

I think Jujitsu was designed by samurai, who were worried about someone who was armed, I believe Japanese jujitsu falls in the same class as Aikido when it comes to empty handed techniques.

Yes, but they still had quite a library of empty-hand techniques. Threre is a book on daito-ryu that lays them out. And if jujitsu is a "poor" empty hand system, how do you go from that to things like Judo and BJJ, which like Aikido, are offshoots?

I'm sick of fighting about this, I feel like I've enriched my life and training. Thats fine by me, if you wish to look at this in your life and training, cool, send me a message we'll chat it up. Otherwise I'm done with this. -Chris Hein

Ok.

Xu Wenfung wrote: Having said that, I am not a professional UFC type fighter, hence those type of one to one type slug out fight is pretty redundant to me. I felt compel to post here because I felt that too many of the posters here emphasize the one to one fight that is typical of sport/competition and sort of putting the scenario which aikido work best (chaotic, multiple attacker scenario) on the background No, standing wrist lock alone is not going to make non-compliant opponent go down, that much is true. There are other elements you need to include (kuzushi, tsukuri, tai sabaki). Just water and flour alone down make bread. If you are a genuine student of aikido... you should realize this. If you are a beginner... ask your sensei for further clarification and if you are not a student of aikido... join a class to explore further. Broken finger and wrist don't stop a rapist? I beg to ask you, is this factual or formed from your own opinion? .

Xu, it seems to me that you have formed an opinion about "sport"-like MMA training and applications watching couple of UFC-bouts. None of the pro-fighters WANTS to slug it out. Maybe very few do. Most of them want a quick end to the fight. But when skills and sizes are equally matched, it is not that easy. Also your tone implies that it does not seem technical to you.

My opinion is that most of well rounded MMA-fighters would do very well in those situations you speak of as "chaotic" and "multiple-attakcker-based". Now if they would actually train for this for a month or to and another month of "competitive"-real-resistance-drills against blade as well...

Now many aikidoka speak so highly of principles and learning principles via practicing tecniques (as do you speaking of balance breaking and footwork). But most of the "sport systems" have found a way to dedicate MOST of the time practicing these and very little time (compared to other things) to technique.

Now the question about how may I suggest that broken finger does not stop a rapist I hope you didn't form it this way on purpose.

There are countless police records on about people who are severely damaged continue to fight. Being on drugs is one possibility. People (attackers and defenders) get cut, broken elbows, ears ripped off, get kicked into groin multiple times (yes) and still keep on fighting. There are two sure ways to end a physical fight. A choke and major head trauma. A woman is quite probably NOT able doing the second without a weapon.

Now if to bite the worm you threw out and which I (possible that wrongly) percieved a little irritating:

If I was to rape someone, a broken finger or wrist would sure not stop me. I'd beat the crap outta her and then still do it.

(and to clear it out, I have 6 years of quite intensive Aikido experience. I personally think it sure is not enough time to be proficient in Aikido but is enough to have seen and felt enough to form a creditable opinion)

Oh and by the way... Dan Inosanto is a BJJ blackbelt.
To me (from a very far distance and very limited knowledge) it seems that he very well understands what works in a fight, how people need to be trained to make them learn faster, how "sport" applications are much practical and safer most of the time. He is just a head of a major money-making-organisation and an old man and would never say that "well it seems that this old stuff is crap, let's all do mma and dogbrothers stuff, that's what really works"

And as it all strives offtopic...

If let's say a judoka or two would walk into the class and challenge (very politely and nicely) you (or your teacher) to an... let's say mma-type sparring match in kimono, would you/he/she do it? How would it fare?

Well,as I posted in this thread, a person I never met before claiming to have 2 years of BJJ came in and I let him try whatever he wanted for well over an hour. The response to this was basically that he must not be very good. I'm okay with that. If it had gone the other way, I'm sure some aikido people would say well Rob must not be very good (which is probably true as well.)

I'd love to see someone with better skills attack Saotome sensei.

Rob

God this is fun.

Never seen so many varied opinions and views. I'm not being facetious, I truly enjoy the views being aired.

This may upset a few of the newer aikidoka.

This I tell my students, but the knowledgeable ones, get my point pretty well.

I'm about to be involved it a fight. There is two sounds. Me being hit, followed by me hitting the ground.

???? How could this be so.?

You are an instructor.
Have done decades of training.
Have also been spouting off what a fantastic martial art aikido is.
What are you saying?????

Point is, I'm one hell of a nice guy. Why on earth would anyone want to hit me??

Doesn't my aikido protect me?
Nope, never will.
I protect me.

If I have the wrong frame of mind, don't blame the aikido training, just blame me.
Thats why I would be the first person hitting the ground.
Its the nice guy that wouldn't hurt a fly, that seems to get it first. (In my little story)

Now ask me if I REALLY think this would be the case.
No, but its one of the possible outcomes that exist, should I engage in a fight.

But boy, the initiator of the fight had better well think this was going to be the case, for if it turned out that I was not 'hitting the ground' he's in deep doo doo's.

So these guys come to my dojo, and challenge me.
If it were the 'old days' all my students would be in like a shot to protect me.
Why do you think the sensei sits with his students between him (her) and the door?
And he also stands between the door (the attackers) and the kamiza.
Well, its not the old days.
My students would be polite and invite them in. (god bless them)
So I have to fight these dudes.
IF that were to happen, my students may or may not see some 'fine demonstration of aikido'
More likely they would see some serious serious whoop arse violence.
Might be me getting the whoop arse though. Thats one possibility.

Anyone that thinks otherwise, hasn't trained long enough and is still in love with the 'aikido is the ultimate martial art' mind set.

[PHP](This is not, to me, some clinical, theoretical situation. Nor is it a academic scenario. Its is what it is. A fight. As I have seen posted before, aikido doesn't have rules, just a philosophy. I agree.
I would do what ever it took to first, stop the fight from even happening, and second, win - if the first choice was not possible.
I don't know these guys - they may well be nutters, out to prove themselves. Why else would they be there?
Have you not heard the name that was given Osensei's dojo - ie that it was at one time known as "Hell dojo". Ask your sensei why this was the case. )[/PHP]


Do I think aikido is the ultimate martial art?
Yup, pretty much. Especially so when someone else is doing it - in a fight.
It touches areas that some martial arts don't even acknowledge.
We train in a wide variety of scenarios.
Our ultimate goal is not simply to come out on top, but to attempt to protect the attacker.
Further still, we should be aiming to neutralize the entire affair, so that no fight actually occurs.

While there may be other arts that have these features, I am currently unaware of any that have them all - as foundation principles.

That is why we must have this protracted (and repeated)discussion.
We are growing.
And developing.
This applies to the experienced - and those that are just starting aikido.
With that comes pain. Not necessarily physical pain, but our soul is being tested and with we will be the better for it.

OK. I'm off the soap box again

Dave H

Jorgen Matsi wrote: Oh and by the way... Dan Inosanto is a BJJ blackbelt....

Yes, he is. He taught some of it at semianrs a few years ago, and had one or two funny stories about his training. Yet he is also head of a Kali system, LaCoste/Inosanto Kali, and that is a vast system which contains (among other things) a ground-fighting system not unlike BJJ (in fact so close to it that when Guro Kevin Seaman first saw a GJJ tape in the '80s, his first thought was, "Wait a minute, that's Kali!") and joint locks almost identical to Aikido's, but I have pracitced them off things like jabs. He's also involved with other SE Asian systems, and they also have the same locks you find in AIkido -- you just get there differently. Know the figure four armbar? Every do it off a jab? Guess what -- in Aikido, that is considered a variaiton of shiho-ange (although I didn't know this until a couple of weeks ago). So when someone says, "You can't do shiho-nage off a jab or a jab/cross," I say, "Look at the Filipinos. Look at the Indonesians. They do that all the time. So it can be done."

Jorgen Matsi wrote: And as it all strives offtopic... If let's say a judoka or two would walk into the class and challenge (very politely and nicely) you (or your teacher) to an... let's say mma-type sparring match in kimono, would you/he/she do it? How would it fare?

I'm not 100% sure of this, but I believe that some people from the local Judo club train in the Aikido dojos I've been involve with, and some of the Aikido people may crosstrain in Judo. So in this situation, I think such a challenge is a moot point: Friends don't go to try and give friends a hard time.

Michael Gallagher wrote: Yes, but they still had quite a library of empty-hand techniques. Threre is a book on daito-ryu that lays them out. And if jujitsu is a "poor" empty hand system, how do you go from that to things like Judo and BJJ, which like Aikido, are offshoots?

Yes, like aikido, judo and bjj are derived from Japanese jujutsu. One major difference is how judo and bjj approach training. Both arts have narrowed their teachings to techniques that can be safely practiced full force against an opponent that is not only resisting you, but is also trying to apply the same techniques. This allows people training in these arts to get a true sense of timing and all of the other minute but crucial aspects that can only be obtained through doing. And since they train the techniques exactly as they would be used in an actual conflict, they are very effective within their range. Judo focuses on throwing from a clench, and bjj on ground work, so if a judoka can't get his hands on his opponent he won't deal well with punches, likewise a bjj guy won't be as effective if he's not on the ground. So these arts have been honed and tested under fire for specific empty hand situations, as has been boxing.

For the record, I have never trained or personally seen kali and the videos I've seen have been weapons only, but I have never seen complex joint locks effectively demonstrated against good punches thrown with bad intentions. Picture James Toney in front of you and now go show me shiho nage or any of its variation.

I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm saying I've never seen it.

Michael

Michael Varin wrote: ..... For the record, I have never trained or personally seen kali and the videos I've seen have been weapons only, but I have never seen complex joint locks effectively demonstrated against good punches thrown with bad intentions. Picture James Toney in front of you and now go show me shiho nage or any of its variation. I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm saying I've never seen it. Michael

Bingo -- it is possible, and I have been practicing it. For a test I am getting ready for, I have to review some joint locks, and they are done not off grabs or lunge punches but off jabs.

Kali is more than just sticks. It is a vast system encompassing every type of weapon you can imagine and every empty hand area you can name, including kicking, punching, locking, throwing, and grappling. Their boxing system, Panantukan (which may have had a strong influence on western boxing) is used not to trade shots with someone as you might see in a boxing match but to get through your opponent's defenses so you can then apply traps, throws, and submissions as found in the grapppling system, Dumog. That's why Kali would go well with Aikdio -- if nage waza and osae waza are the bombs, Filipino boxing would be the missile that delivers them.

And I say all this not from the perspective of someone who has seen a few tapes or been to an few seminars but someone who has studied Kali once a week from 1998 to the present, and is not stopping. (I actually tried it for the first time in the summer of '97, but I took the winter off because I wanted to make both karate classes for once, and they conflicted with the beginner's Kali class on Monday and Wednesday nights. However, I did Wing Chun on Tuesdays so I could continue training under the same instructors, and that's how I got into that art.) So call me silly, but I think I know what I'm talking about.

Michael Varin wrote: One major difference is how judo and bjj approach training. Both arts have narrowed their teachings to techniques that can be safely practiced full force against an opponent that is not only resisting you, but is also trying to apply the same techniques.

I know nothing about BJJ, but in the case of Judo I think I take issue with this. There are still plenty of techniques within the judo syllabus which can't be practiced safely in the "competitive randori" environment, and which are therefore practiced only in kata form. (Like most aikido practice.)

Its true that many, even most, dojos have narrowed their teachings, in the sense that they're only interested in shiai and what is effective in shiai, but the Kodokan (and therefore Judo itself) has not.

Sean
x

Kodokan is as wide if not wider than Aikikai (in technical terms that is). There are many dojos that have dropped tha kata altogether.

The groundwork in judo is watered down in many places due to it's relative ineffectiveness to throws in shiai according to the current rules.

BJJ has no kata whatsoever.