Why are you here on this forum?

Jorge Garcia wrote: . There is also a question in my mind about people who are so willing and anxious to help those not seeking help.

Jorge, I'm assuming you're talking about people like me, Kevin and Dan with this post. If I'm mistaken in that disregard the following.

Firstly it's interesting that you proudly list youself as being a part of one "group" (who many of us would also be a part of under your definition), but talk about our "group" as if it were somehow insidious. It's also easy to lump people into a group and treat them as if they were the same.

But I really wanted to address the quote above. Because it's not something that I see happening.

As I've said before, it's not like anyone is jumping into a thread on how to improve ones shiho nage and saying "aikido sucks go train an alive art" (actually no ones sayin that anywhere). The contributions we make are in responses to specific questinos that raise that topic of discussion. So we answer with our thoughts and expereinces as does everyone else. The only difference seems to be that you don't like the content of our replies...

Jorge wrote

hese know they can't defend themselves with Aikido and they really want to disabuse the Aikido folks of that false notion. They have a missionary zeal about it. It feels like the religious groups that come to my door to prove to me that my religion is wrong. I always just shut the door because my religious perspectives are not going to be solved by stranger at my door. I am responsible for my own ignorance and I won't give that responsibility away. If I go to hell, I intend for it to have been my fault, not his. If I need the help, I know where to find their "church".

This brings up an interesting story.

My wife and I following buddhist precepts and philosophy for the most part, and are affiliated with the Unitarian-Universalist Church.

When we moved to Germany about 4 years ago, a Jehova's Witness knocked on our door and my wife answered. She invited her in and had a conversation with her. I thought she was crazy!

Anyway, four years later, she comes over to the house about every other Thursday to "witness". My wife sits down with her has tea, and they discuss the bible and religion.

It has been the most rewarding friendship for my wife and her. They openingly share their views and both have learned from each other.

Niether have converted the other, that is not the intent, it is to share and to have a better understanding of the world and each other.

I have learned through my wife, that Witnessing is not always about conversion, but simply being mindful and thinking.

Nothing wrong with exposing yourself to new ideas, concepts, and ways if it is done in a manner of respect and dignity!

Christian Moses wrote: There are ways to enter into challenging dialectic without being condescending or insulting. That's obviously quite hard for you, and that's too bad, because I'm genuinely interested in a lot of what you have to say (and even agree with much of it!). You seem to feel that your own personal experiences and opinions should trump everyone else's. This is not your (fairly extensively moderated, by all accounts) list, so remembering, as Dennis pointed out, that we are *all* guests here would go a long way. Unless of course you're just itching to tick people off, something that I frankly doubt would be tolerated on your private list. That, as you say, would be an embarrassment to the pretense that you're a martial artist.

Chris, why don't you get away from the analysis of my character? You pretty much embarrassed me already because I had privately defended you as not getting so much into the personal stuff to people that have a different opinion of you personally... but I seem to have made an error in judgement. Again.

In terms of the QiJing list being "heavily moderated", it's not. It just keeps the "my style", "I'm a Teacher", yada, yada, guys off the list. AikiWeb is like a forum that discusses the joys of mathematics; QiJing is a list that discusses how mathematics works and keeps that focus in sight.

The famous old Neijia List was a good example of what happens when you deal with the martial arts population at large without restricting who can join (too late, it became more restrictive). Too many people think they are experts and "teachers" and when they are substantively challenged, they're not really interested in discussing facts and information... they're interested in saving face and in pecking order. Right now I see a conflict between the "pecking order" people and the "martial arts information" people.

Disregarding "outsiders", there are a number of Aikido "insiders" who are interested in martial arts; there are also a number of "insiders" who are interested in protecting the status quo. In protecting the status quo, the latter drop all kinds of things like "years of experience", "my teacher", "my style", "my rank", "my understanding of the Mysteries of the Universe according to Morihei", and so forth. THAT is insulting to someone trying to have a bona fide conversation. To them is it insulting if someone doesn't take them seriously. The answer is to stick to the issues and legitimately discuss the issues. In the case at hand, the "Oh Yeah, We Do That Too" (what I always term the "Ohyeah's") doesn't fly in these discussions, so it would seem that there is a limited faction that would like to marginalize the discussion. My point was that that faction does NOT represent any consensus in Aikido, so all the terminology (from the very beginning of the thread) that implies there is a consensus about "outsiders" is spurious.

Are people "insulted"? Sure. On both sides. But generally the ones most "insulted" and who go to the personal remarks are the people who are in a losing position... a point well-established in debate. The way to win a debate is to have your ducks lined up and smack the other guy with facts. The "insulting" behaviour is the kind where issues other than the facts are introduced, such as personal remarks..... and oddly I notice that when I lob personal remarks back at the people who engage in them, there is great outrage and discussion of "insults".

Oh... one slight caveat to emphasize again... any person who publicly proclaims that he is a "teacher" is always subject to questions about basics he should know. Unless someone wants to make the argument that misleading students is not really important. Other than that caveat.... debate on, but try to win on the issues.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman wrote: Chris, why don't you get away from the analysis of my character? You pretty much embarrassed me already because I had privately defended you as not getting so much into the personal stuff to people that have a different opinion of you personally... but I seem to have made an error in judgement. Again.

I'm not analyzing your character. One of your posts offended me and I pointed it out. You claim not to understand why. Perhaps you could explain to me why you feel that I am out of line by saying that I consider some of your comments to be out of line, or using the colloquial, "Quit being a prick." Where you have every right to say that the head of my ryuha was "dumb." Does that really seem OK to you? Could you perhaps explain to me how that isn't a personal attack? You knew nearly nothing about the situation I was discussing, yet felt justified making a public statement of conclusion that Mochizuki Sensei was dumb? Yet now, when called on it, you appeal to the rules of civil discussion? Give me a break. Frankly, I feel I have every right to point that out.

But because I have crossed you, I'm now lumped into the worshiping masses in some way. Man, you really don't know me very well.

As for defending me, don't waste your time. I don't need anyone defending me.

Christian Moses wrote: Where you have every right to say that the head of my ryuha was "dumb."

Never said it. You're just digging your hole deeper by trying to misrepresent what I said:

"Pooh. What you're saying implies that Mochizuki was too dumb to realize that you didn't get it. Or that Saotome is too dumb to realize that people don't it. The old "Show 'em But Don't Show 'em" thing is legendary in Asia. Yes you show them correctly, but you never explain it, so in effect you didn't really show them. I'm actually stunned that there are people who don't know this ancient Asian old-saw. "

My remarks were accurate. Any good teacher knows exactly when he is fully explaining something and when he's not being totally clear. You need to find some other justification for the insult, Chris. But really... don't bother.

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman wrote: Any good teacher knows exactly when he is fully explaining something and when he's not being totally clear.

Of course, I forgot. And nothing has ever been lost between two people when they don't speak each other's languages.

Mike Sigman wrote: No... there's that oblique assertion that your views are those of "Aikido folks", David. You don't represent "Aikido Folks" and I don't. If you're going to debate an issue, please do it without the standard false tricks of amateur debate. There you go again. Your opinions do not reflect those of "any aikidoka's head", David. No, it's not the case here, David. Ricky Wood can be "immature", but when he deliberately plays second-fiddle to actual insanity like Justin Smith's and deliberately begins some bizarre game of "getting under the skin of Mike Sigman", I wonder why you don't wonder out loud that someone who publicly claims to be an "Aikido Teacher" is blemishing the art? Or maybe he represents a protection for you as an Aikido teacher? It's very murky exactly whom you're defending and why. Do you think an "Aikido Teacher" like Ricky Wood who is "getting under the skin of Mike Sigman" is someone who is akin to your own heart? Is that what Aikido is to you... some bogus role play where at heart there is just some punk pretending to "follow the Tao" and all that cool sounding, noble, stuff?

Wow, I don't ever remember my name being mentioned so many times in one paragraph.
I am sorry Mike. Honestly. Many of my attempts at humor are misinterpreted. I bear you no malice whatsoever. You do your thing and I do mine. You are of the opinion that I know nothing about aikido and that I am blemishing the art, and yet Iwao Yamaguchi Sensei and Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu are of a different opinion, otherwise I don't suppose they would have seen fit to grant me a shodan certificate. Now, whose opinion do you suppose I place more value in?
My cup is truly empty and I feel woefully inadequate in my skills as both a teacher and a student. I do not need you to remind me of this. I have been "on my own" since leaving Okinawa. I do not have a sensei in the tradition to which I am accustomed and aikido dojo's are not so plentiful in my neck of the woods, so I teach out of necessity.
I too am one of "them" that wonder why you hang out in an aikido forum. You have every right to do so, yet I still wonder.
You are quite easy to draw in though. You should be more careful about that.

Ricky Wood wrote: You are of the opinion that I know nothing about aikido and that I am blemishing the art, and yet Iwao Yamaguchi Sensei and Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu are of a different opinion, otherwise I don't suppose they would have seen fit to grant me a shodan certificate.

Well, that's a relief! I, like many other people, thought there was something basic missing in most Aikido teachings, most Karate teachings, most Taiji teachings, most ju-jitsu teachings, most Koryu arts' teachings, and so on. But now that I know that everyone got "diplomas" from the organizations, I realize that there actually can be no missing knowledge. Things are hunky dunky.

BTW.... what the heck is Chris Moses, Rob Liberti and others talking about when they meet with Dan, Akuzawa, etc.? Since they have diplomas, don't they already know all that stuff?

Mike Sigman

Mike,

Your posts in response to Chris' fine posts are the answer to this thread. Of course, it is in other posts as well (e.g. yours to mine, etc.), but that is where it is the most obvious. In that answer, the thread has ran its course and served its purpose. You do what you do, here in this place, because you cannot see yourself.

Please don't let this make you feel like an outsider or like you are being requested to leave, etc. That is just foolishness - especially from the likes of me. I am no one and no thing of importance. For me, you are a great part of the forum - minus the never-ending need for insulting others.

d

David Valadez wrote: Please don't let this make you feel like an outsider or like you are being requested to leave, etc. That is just foolishness -

Thanks. I won't. But thanks for caring enough to patronize.

David, you probably should understand something of a personal perspective I have about people who carry on about spirituality, "meditation", "aiki" as a cry for help, "harmony with the univers", and so on, while obviously emoting against people they don't like .... I don't buy it. I'm old enough and smart enough to see what's driving that role. Get off of me, for the last time, and start talking about some issues. The passive-aggressive "hidden shots" stuff gets a little silly.

Regards.

Mike Sigman

Here is a different take Guys and gals

Ask the dozens of folks who have now come to train with us- many having felt various combinations of training with all three or two- if they regret having met us from here? If they object to the continued input?

Next question
Why are folks asking us to help in the first place?....after....feeling what we have?
Cheers
Dan

Hey Dan,

In answer to your question....

Because Don Angier blew me away...

Because Neil (don't kill me please ) could move and move me in a way like I had never seen...

Because Ark and Rob gave me insomnia for three nights after I met them...

Because I think about this stuff all the time....

Because its hard and challenging....

And ten years in and I just started learning it...

FWIW
Jeremy

[quote=Dan Harden;171870]

Tim Mailloux wrote: So if the peer reviews are ignored, and Ikedas words are ignored, and George miquotes us and thinks only Aikidoka can change it. We should just leave them alone.

Perhaps you should. To be honest with you Dan I've been doing a lot of what you and Mike have been talking about for years, maybe I just got lucky with finding the right teacher, I don't know. I do know that back in the day, when I talked about these things in places on the net I got flamed, just like you guys are being flamed now (hell I'm even one of the people telling you to go somewhere else). I just discovered that there wasn't any real point in having these discussions - at least not on the internet - and that there were still many things I could learn and were good things to hear, from people who were not doing aikido the way I do it. I also just didn't see the point in going to a Tai Chi forum and telling them that aikido was better and Tai Chi was missing certain principles. Even though I could have done so because I used to study Tai Chi, just as you and Mike have done some aikido and daito ryu. I thought that doing that would be rather egotistical.

My question to you both (if you're still reading things I write and not got me on your ignore list) is... Why did you come here? It's an internet forum, it's all armchair budoka intellectualising about budo. If you really wanted to change things why didn't you start teaching aikido again, open your own dojo, teach the waza, become involved in the community again by applying the principles you have learned elsewhere to the aikido you teach and practice? Why do the trolling by coming here and telling us that we're all wrong and you're right? If aikido is so great and so in need of having these principles put back into it (which I think it is, so I agree with you) why not do that instead of just talking about it? I'm trying to, my teacher is trying to, and others are trying to do it too. Do it, don't talk about it, go and do it.

Regards

Mike Haft

[quote=Mike Haft;171890]

Dan Harden wrote: My question to you both (if you're still reading things I write and not got me on your ignore list) is... Why did you come here? It's an internet forum, it's all armchair budoka intellectualising about budo. If you really wanted to change things why didn't you start teaching aikido again, open your own dojo, teach the waza, become involved in the community again by applying the principles you have learned elsewhere to the aikido you teach and practice? Why do the trolling by coming here and telling us that we're all wrong and you're right? If aikido is so great and so in need of having these principles put back into it (which I think it is, so I agree with you) why not do that instead of just talking about it? I'm trying to, my teacher is trying to, and others are trying to do it too. Do it, don't talk about it, go and do it. Regards Mike Haft

I for one a very glad that Dan has been talking about this stuff online. If not fot it, I would have never met him and would not be training with him right now as are quite a few aikidoka. So while Dan not be teaching aikido, he is doing his part to get these skills back into aikido by:
*Telling the aikido world that they are missing. So aikidoka search these skills out.
*Inviting aikidoka to come train with him and learn these skills to take back to aikido. Dan isn't trying to convert any of us training with him to DR or MMA. He is always telling us to work on these internal skills and take them back to what ever art we come from (aikido, judo, MMA, ect...).

So really, Dan is doing exactly what you are asking of him. He has just choosen to do it on a smaller more personal scale that most aikidoka are used to. Sure he could hold some giant seminars and charge lots of money for people to attend. But really, what would anyone get from that?. I mean besides Dan getting a fat bank account? Dan has chosen to keep things small to make sure that the people that train with him REALLY get these skills.

Tim Mailloux wrote: So really, Dan is doing exactly what you are asking of him.

No. He isn't.

Mike

Yes, he is...

Best,
Ron (sheesh )

Ron Tisdale wrote: Yes, he is... Best, Ron (sheesh )

Lol. Nope he definitely isn't. He's not teaching aikido he's teaching something else and telling people they need to put it into their aikido for their aikido to be 'real aikido'. When 'real aikido' is really just what aikidoka do anyway (might be bad 'real aikido' but it's still 'real aikido').

I try on the other hand to teach aikido and to practice it by using much of the methodology described by Dan and Mike, and always have. I am an aikidoka doing what they say I should be doing (or at least trying to anyway). I do not teach 'aikido flavoured something else' and say that all MMA and CMA people need to put it into their art in order to make their respective arts work, I do not go to their discussion forums and tell them these things because it would be rude. Budo begins and ends with rei, not big mouthes.

Basically we all agree that 'something else' is internal skills. They're still a part of aikido, they didn't really leave you just have to look for them quite hard because aikido expanded really fast under the direction of a man (Kisshomaru Ueshiba) who didn't really have these skills. They got left behind in lots of places, I'm sure Dan and Mike are trying to encourage people to fix that. But what they are also doing is telling people that they aren't good enough, that they have to do things the way they say they need to be done or its not aikido. Well I'm sorry but I beg to differ. It is aikido and what you've been talking about has been happening within aikido for years. You just need to look harder for it, and talk about what you do that is not aikido a little less. I'm sure you mean well (actually I know you mean well) but you are still being rather impolite and undermining, and trying to call it legitimate and challenging debate. Legitimate and challenging things can still be impolite and rude.

Regards

Mike

Dan Harden wrote: Thanks for the positive advice. Your opinion that I am not teaching Aikido is your own.

Of course it is my own I speak for nobody but me

Dan Harden wrote: Your syllabus just isn't that hard and once you have these skills they really aren't need much anymore.

You have not seen my syllabus it does not look anything like what you would expect it to based on your average aikido syllabus. Please be careful about such assumptions if you are going to use them to discuss things with me.

Dan Harden wrote: But if you show up I'll teach you many more ways to do just about any lock you know and teach you quite a few more throws. All with aiki all with aikido principles.

Again, for someone who has yet to see a copy of my syllabus and who has no knowledge of the technical content of our teaching curriculum these are looking like quite arrogant and presumptious statements. And Dan, I do agree with much of what you say about these things, and I also think that if we ever trained together there would be much more in common than you might think and I would hope it will be fun.

But no, based on what you have written on these forums and elsewhere it's not aikido and I dislike that you have come here to say these things. Take it or leave it, I have no problem with you talking about the martial arts you do and even teaching people things that will help them improve their aikido (hell I positively encourage it). But these are aikido forums and you're being rude and presumptious IMO, that is all I've been trying to say, probably less than politely myself unfortunately. But then that's another lesson I need to learn amongst many.

Mike

Craig Hocker wrote: He did. for example to Koichi Tohei Sensei who then taught it to quite a lot of people in his own way. Many of whom later due to history did not pass it on. and I say that from personal experience as an Iaido teacher. I have had iaido students from many styles of aikido, because Iaido is another thing outside of aikido politics. It's made me appreciate the focus on mind and body coordination even when I didn't appreciate the lack vigorous practice sometimes. I am sneaking in internal stuff all the time from Tohei Sensei and elsewhere, because it's universal in having effective technique. Whether it bleeds back into their aikido I don't know. -Craig

So now let me ask you if you go to the kendo-world forums and try to tell everyone in the iaido section that they need Tohei style mind and body coordination to do it correctly? I know that you don't because I read them all the time. Perhaps E-Budo? No

At a recent iaido seminar I attended I was asked to give an impromptu aikido demo. I instead talked about ki and unbendable arm, all present seemed suitably impressed and one of them even asked if he could travel the 70 or so miles to Aberdeen to train with me. I of course agreed wholeheartedly cos I want to learn more iaido.

Did I go to the iaido forums telling them they were not doing iaido properly? No. I didn't. Did (some of) the people I met want to learn 'this ki stuff'? Yes they did. So why do people want to come here to an aikido forum and tell aikido people how to do aikido?

They may have interesting things to say, they may be totally right about a lot of stuff. But why come here? What do they hope to acheive?

Mike

Mike Haft wrote: So now let me ask you if you go to the kendo-world forums and try to tell everyone in the iaido section that they need Tohei style mind and body coordination to do it correctly? I know that you don't because I read them all the time. Perhaps E-Budo? No

Not only I haven't but I wouldn't see the point of doing so. I know from experience that there are those in iaido that have that internal aspect to their art and others that don't. I wouldn't presume to know which they are online. In person it just guides me in who I choose to learn from and follow of the numerous ones with more skill and knowledge in Iaido than I do. To appreciate nuances beyond technical form. I see it more as something I can bring to the table as a teacher that is an extra bonus to my iaido students. To be clear, I don't spend time talking about ki principles in iaido class but they do learn how to be unpushable at the finish of a kiri oroshi (kiri otoshi) for example. It all stays in context.

That said, I think it's important to have a thick skin when it comes to reading things online. I have picked a few things from what Dan and Mike and others have said so I don't really care if sometimes I need to scroll past a lot of stuff if I occasionally get an idea or exercise out of the equation for me and my students. I don't know why some who don't actually practice aikido or have ever done aikido like posting so much here, but if they have the time more power to them. Maybe it says something more about how active and dynamic a forum aikiweb is and how fantastic a job Jun has done here in creating and supporting this community.

I hardly ever visit e-budo, AJ, aikido-l anymore. Just don't have the time. But aikiweb is just so well put together that it's hard not to drop in and take a quick scan.

Craig Hocker wrote: I have picked a few things from what Dan and Mike and others I have said so I don't really care if sometimes I need to scroll past a lot of stuff if I occasionally get an idea or exercise out of the equation for me and my students.

Same here. Maybe I've just been having a bad week or something and am getting grouchy in my old age. Dunno.

Anyway off to kendo now. Then off to tell all the kendoka on the internet that they need aiki principles in order to make their kendo work. Bwahahaaaa Second thoughts maybe not, I know what happens when people do that....

Mike

Mike Haft wrote: Anyway off to kendo now. Then off to tell all the kendoka on the internet that they need aiki principles in order to make their kendo work.

Maybe you should. Nakakura Kiyoshi credited his aikido training for his longevity in Kendo...

Mike Haft wrote: Same here. Maybe I've just been having a bad week or something and am getting grouchy in my old age. Dunno. Anyway off to kendo now. Then off to tell all the kendoka on the internet that they need aiki principles in order to make their kendo work. Bwahahaaaa Second thoughts maybe not, I know what happens when people do that.... Mike

yeah though this time it is a lot more civil than the last time I did it

Though to tell the truth it was more dicussion of internal principles than aiki in the original discussion.

Oddly enough no one seems to offer alternative explanations for how hachidan/elderly practioners move or how to develop that level of skill other than simply repitition.

With respect to iaido, I was tought some of it years ago with respect to weight transfer and how the sword effects the body, but after training this sort of stuff it really becomes more apparent. I need to join the batto class at my school to try it out for cutting.

Dan Harden wrote: I tell ya the conversation after was most interesting. They both were looking at a model Of how this will change their aikido. Tom was chewing things over about how to have it effect his dojo, considering its effect on his personal aikido. There was a logic string to the discussion (got to love the military mindset) Him thinking things through, to training himself before his students, or to training with them, what effects, what's more efficient for transmission. His mind was whirling and planning in such a way and with such intriguing questions that brought in single individuals-to-dojo to multiple ramifications of what this Aiki does to Aikido. He was a real thinker. I was impressed. Stan Just called they're both coming back in a couple of weeks so I'll let you know.

As has been the conversations I've seen between ex-marines and my aikido teacher. Like I said I don't think I disagree with the things you do and teach. I only question why you need to come here as a non-aikido person and tell us about it all and imply that we're not up to the challenge.

I wonder what kind of ego it takes to do that and I wonder whether it is someone I would want to listen to? I'm sure I risk missing interesting insights but.... respectfully, can you understand this point of view?

Mike

Dan Harden wrote: Everyone I've met in Aikido- just like everywhere else-is up to the challenge. Its just up to all of us to do the work. For some reason-I don't know why-I have a dojo lately full of currently practicing AIkido folks -several of whom are teachers-doing just that. I suggest if you have a problem with them talking about both their Aikido and their training, here, on this forum, just tell them so. I'm sure they would like to hear your thoughts. I'll continue to talk to them about the Aiki-do we did just last night for 5 hours. I thank you for once again sharing your wonderful, uplifting, and swell contributions. And thank you ever so much for your kind words. Good luck in your training Dan

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. If you want to get into a pissing contest about how many people cross train with you that's fine, I have plenty of folks from other arts who cross train with me, yet I don't boast about it, nor do I go to the forums for the arts they practice and talk about how they're doing these things wrong.

I note that you haven't answered my question. Why not? Or are you going to just tell me that lots of aikido guys trained with you last night again? Perhaps I'll get another round of responses telling the world how great you are and telling me to shutup because I keep asking you why you are here on this forum in the first place. You wouldn't believe the brown-nosing PM I got recently from one of your pals.

Why are you here Dan? What do you hope to achieve?

Mike