Defence against hooks

Well, if you can't/won't use pepper spray, why not splurge on a xenon bulb, lithium-batteried flashlight (like them SureFires)?

120 lumens in the eyes is not very pleasant...and it might work a lot better if you stun gun them in the privates at the same time...

Oh, wait...that wasn't very aiki...

That wouldn't be very Aiki...

But, at least you'll walk out in one piece...

Anyway several years have passed since I started this thread and noticed that it's the first hit when you google Aikido against hooks. I also notice the large amount of views this thread has seen which does indicate that this is perhaps a very common problem.

I am still actively practicing Aikido (so have some 15 years of Aikido now) and have recently taken up other martial arts (CMD and BJJ).

The more I delve into the matter here, the more I find it hard to find an appropriate counter to a proper hook or even just boxing in general. I have had the opportunity to train with proper boxers and I note several things

1. You are seldom attacked with a hook right from the bat unless the guy is crappy/drunk. It is usually a follow up from a combo such as a jab
2. A proper hook as I understand it is tight and short range. It's a close-range punch. There is no way to 'enter' into the arc of the hook if it's done properly.
3. Ducking under is an option but it is not easy to do this with an irimi

I have trained in several Aikido dojos, many of them reputable and when thrown a hook, I find that unless they are ready for it and I'm not going full out with my hook (which isn't all that great to being with), they are unable to capitalize on it and usually end up just blocking it (which is fair enough I suppose).

Even with quick jabs and such, because of the lack of commitment from the attacker, traditional Aikido techniques do not seem to be effective unless the attack is out to destroy you in one shot.

The best I could manage is to continuously slap away the jabs and try to maintain ma-ai by circling around. There are times where I will manage to get a quick grip on one of the attacking hooks but in his pull back I will lose it. I constantly felt on edge as the moment I lost my concentration, I risked being knocked out. It was a horrible feeling despite my attempts to remain calm. It just simply takes a lot more concentration to simply just 'react' to his attacks.

There were some instructors that after my hook, they will try to 'take me down' and sure that may work against a boxer, but similarly
a) a proper sprawl is easy to do against this and it's risky
b) A takedown isn't one of the usual techniques taught in Aikido (yes yes I know a hook isn't either but it's a very common attack in rl)

Now I'm no O-Sensei or anything but afaik, even in other boxing based disciplines, you are not expected to dodge these things on a consistent basis, what more move in and redirect the hand? Are we relegated to just slapping these jabs away and be locked in a stalemate? I did ponder briefly if this was indeed Aikido since there is the opportunity for you to avoid conflict if he's not committing and stalemating does seem to be a plausible outcome.

I really am now at a crossroads in Aikido where I am tired of hearing 'do enough traditional techniques and you'll get the real techniques without thinking'. This just strikes off as 'I don't know what to do, just train'. I have been doing this for a good number of years now and have tested this against other experienced Aikidoka and have not found an acceptable solution.

I have youtubed it and tested those applications and only find them useful in incorrect hooks. Perhaps my skill level isn't enough so i really really humbly seek this forum's feedback on this matter. I also note that the Aikido greats all went through that 'tough patch' like Gozo Shioda who actively sought out fights and Morihei who practiced in many different martial arts and also 'duelled'. It seems that without this trial of fire, your average Aikidoka is not equipped with the necessary fight perception (even in randoori), to perform Aikido at a reasonably practical level which was one of the reasons why I started taking other martial arts to see how these 'fight' perceptions are translated to Aikido effectiveness.

It does help somewhat in that I can perceive attacks a lot faster and be much more calm when being attack after having sparred in other martial arts in more realistic environments which imo does translate to better Aikido. However, there is still no answer to a boxer who may be really raring to hurt you, but isn't going to open up with just one big punch, but instead a barrage followed by a finisher.

I know Aikido is one of those arts that require many more years of experience compared to others, but it sucks that someone can go into six months of boxing or something similar and have more ready skills than someone with more than a decade of experience.

Hi,

Maybe this helps, no magic pills but the following has worked for me :

Yes, the hook usually comes after the distance has been closed with a combo, i.e. jab-cross then hook. What I've found is: go for the opponent as he throws the jab, don't let him throw the cross, counter the jab and irimi asap, close distance and grapple him. You should be the one who is controlling the maai and the deai, not the boxer.

If the boxer is throwing uncommited strikes, that makes you the one who has to be commited, i.e. the boxer is throwing half assed jabs and feinting... give him the biggest shomen ate/uchi, yokomenuchi, right cross/whatever you can deliver and continue putting pressure on him. Enter and cut, enter and cut, enter and cut... pressure, pressure, pressure rinse and repeat. Make him play your game, don't play his game.

Aikido is alot % atemi, you need "heavy" hands that make him afraid of exchanging strikes with you. Take away from him his will to fight.

There's a lot more of things that can be done against boxing techniques and tactics, but have in mind this is not an easy task. Lots of blood, sweet and tears before you can use aikido to defend yourself from a competent boxer who wants to hurt you.

Ed. A takedown is Aikido too

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: Hi, Maybe this helps, no magic pills but the following has worked for me : Yes, the hook usually comes after the distance has been closed with a combo, i.e. jab-cross then hook. What I've found is: go for the opponent as he throws the jab, don't let him throw the cross, counter the jab and irimi asap, close distance and grapple him. You should be the one who is controlling the maai and the deai, not the boxer. If the boxer is throwing uncommited strikes, that makes you the one who has to be commited, i.e. the boxer is throwing half assed jabs and feinting... give him the biggest shomen ate/uchi, yokomenuchi, right cross/whatever you can deliver and continue putting pressure on him. Enter and cut, enter and cut, enter and cut... pressure, pressure, pressure rinse and repeat. Make him play your game, don't play his game. Aikido is alot % atemi, you need "heavy" hands that make him afraid of exchanging strikes with you. Take away from him his will to fight. There's a lot more of things that can be done against boxing techniques and tactics, but have in mind this is not an easy task. Lots of blood, sweet and tears before you can use aikido to defend yourself from a competent boxer who wants to hurt you. Ed. A takedown is Aikido too

Your strategy does sound interesting. If I understand it correctly, its to use atemi to open him up?

I actually tried doing strikes to the boxer but as they had a tight guard and the traditional strikes actually leave you open to a big sock in the body or face...for e.g. shomen uchi or yokomen uchi. I feel that this would be exactly the response he is waiting for.

Jabs are half assed in nature but that by no means that they're slow or without a lot of pain behind them They're used to keep distance and to control the space in front of them so that you cannot enter easily as well.

What technique would you use to move in from the jab? A jab, cross combo is very quick and in sparring when he throws it, it's usually *tap tap* on the gloves rather than any usable interval between them. If there's any intervals, it's usually after he finishes a combo and backs off slightly. I note that in boxing there's the opportunity for using the minute intervals between his combos to 'counter punch', perhaps there's an atemi I could throw in to break his concentration and follow up with an Aikido technique? Takes balls of steels though and risks getting socked in the face as well esp when we don't train for it in normal practice.

You have a good point about him playing your game, and it seems to involve putting similar pressure on him as well. How to do this still rather eludes me.

Thanks for your comments it does seem we're getting somewhere.

Also a takedown seems to be a very important tool but it's also something we don't really train in Aikido that much plus we do risk getting caught into a ground-fighting situation which not all of us are prepared for unless we cross-train. We can probably even divorce Aikido completely from this equation if we are to rely on takedowns to these kinds of attacks.

This is from an encounter between Tadashi Abe and Minoru Mochizuki:

Tadashi Abe -- "Although I have been observing Ueshiba Sensei for a long time, I don't feel like practicing an art like aiki jujutsu. I feel confident that I can defeat him with one boxing punch. I hear that you emphasize actual fighting. Is that true?"

[...]

Minoru Mochizuki -- "Attack me as you like!"

Abe still mumbled: "Sensei, can I really strike you? Strange… You have openings everywhere…" Then he took a stance and suddenly came straight in. I dodged the blow and kicked him with my leg. He groaned and fell. I applied a resuscitation technique and massaged him.

Alejandro Villanueva wrote: This is from an encounter between Tadashi Abe and Minoru Mochizuki: Tadashi Abe -- "Although I have been observing Ueshiba Sensei for a long time, I don't feel like practicing an art like aiki jujutsu. I feel confident that I can defeat him with one boxing punch. I hear that you emphasize actual fighting. Is that true?" [...] Minoru Mochizuki -- "Attack me as you like!" Abe still mumbled: "Sensei, can I really strike you? Strange… You have openings everywhere…" Then he took a stance and suddenly came straight in. I dodged the blow and kicked him with my leg. He groaned and fell. I applied a resuscitation technique and massaged him.

Who is kicking who? Lol if I get it correctly, this means, play dirty?

I actually had an experience of this when trying out jujitsu. The teacher asked me to spar with him and being from an aikido background I knew nothing about striking or sparring but what I knew was that I couldn't do committal attacks if I didn't want to get into trouble.

So I went around, doing little itty bitty knee kicks and quick jab combos which he couldn't do much about. He lost patience at his new student (me), and came straight at me, I instinctively stuck my hand out and he kinda...ran into my punch into his chin (i'm taller than him by a bit so a my shoulder level punch goes right to his face).

His mouth bled a bit and I apologized profusely....and he was berating me for 'punching him in the face' and he pretended to talk to the spectator students around him when he sneaked a nasty knee strike to my knee (when I had already let my guard down as I thought it was over).

Not something I would call 'respectful'. Kinda equivalent to offering the guy a beer and then smashing it on his head....

Needless to say, I didn't return to his class after that experience but let's stick on topic here

I don't believe Mochizuki played dirty here. That's just awase. Good Aikido principles to me !!

Alejandro Villanueva wrote: I don't believe Mochizuki played dirty here. That's just awase. Good Aikido principles to me !!

true but even from the description of the encounter the attack does seem to be of the one box sure kill type which aikido is well placed to defend against. Not the quick combos I am having problems with.

Reuben Yap wrote: true but even from the description of the encounter the attack does seem to be of the one box sure kill type which aikido is well placed to defend against. Not the quick combos I am having problems with.

Yep. Probably you're right here.

Reuben Yap wrote: Your strategy does sound interesting. If I understand it correctly, its to use atemi to open him up?

From opeing him up to grappling techniques to putting him to sleep and everything in the middle. It depends.

I actually tried doing strikes to the boxer but as they had a tight guard and the traditional strikes actually leave you open to a big sock in the body or face...for e.g. shomen uchi or yokomen uchi. I feel that this would be exactly the response he is waiting for.

You need to set up your strikes. A big, telegraphed shomen from 3 m away is not going to work, but after a pair of solid jabs from you that make him cover and shield... that's another thing.

Jabs are half assed in nature but that by no means that they're slow or without a lot of pain behind them

Get used to the pain.... this is a martial art. What did you expected?

They're used to keep distance and to control the space in front of them so that you cannot enter easily as well.

You have to get used to keep distance and control the space in front of you too. The one who becames best at this aspect of the game is the one who is controlling the encounter.

What technique would you use to move in from the jab?

Depends what is available at the moment.

A jab, cross combo is very quick and in sparring when he throws it, it's usually *tap tap* on the gloves rather than any usable interval between them. If there's any intervals, it's usually after he finishes a combo and backs off slightly. I note that in boxing there's the opportunity for using the minute intervals between his combos to 'counter punch', perhaps there's an atemi

No, the window of opportunity for the atemi is between the jab and the cross, like here

I could throw in to break his concentration and follow up with an Aikido technique? Takes balls of steel though and risks getting socked in the face as well esp when we don't train for it in normal practice

.
It seems you are getting the idea.

You have a good point about him playing your game, and it seems to involve putting similar pressure on him as well. How to do this still rather eludes me.

With aiki.

Thanks for your comments it does seem we're getting somewhere.

Only two cents from a kickboxing & TKD mediocrity.

Also a takedown seems to be a very important tool but it's also something we don't really train in Aikido that much plus we do risk getting caught into a ground-fighting situation which not all of us are prepared for unless we cross-train. We can probably even divorce Aikido completely from this equation if we are to rely on takedowns to these kinds of attacks.

Aikido is infinite, don't get trapped in standing vs ground false dichotomy. It's about the principles.

It just seems rather unfortunate that these things are not generally covered in most syllabuses even all the way to black belt. Many people learn Aikido for self defense and I think its only right for more emphasis to be placed in such situations. Not all of us are Ueshibas who can create and adapt their own martial art, we need certain fundamentals to build from which are lacking in normal aikido syllabuses. The learning process does not need to be so lengthy imo if there was a way to incorporate this all in into regular training

i think it's only possible to defeat the hook at a higher level of consciousness. You pretty much have to be able to "read it" before it comes. If you can read it coming, then you can enter inside or outside. It's very difficult to pull off. Blocking is more reliable.

Reuben Yap wrote: Anyway several years have passed since I started this thread and noticed that it's the first hit when you google Aikido against hooks. I also notice the large amount of views this thread has seen which does indicate that this is perhaps a very common problem. I am still actively practicing Aikido (so have some 15 years of Aikido now) and have recently taken up other martial arts (CMD and BJJ). The more I delve into the matter here, the more I find it hard to find an appropriate counter to a proper hook or even just boxing in general. I have had the opportunity to train with proper boxers and I note several things You are seldom attacked with a hook right from the bat unless the guy is crappy/drunk. It is usually a follow up from a combo such as a jab A proper hook as I understand it is tight and short range. It's a close-range punch. There is no way to 'enter' into the arc of the hook if it's done properly. Ducking under is an option but it is not easy to do this with an irimi I have trained in several Aikido dojos, many of them reputable and when thrown a hook, I find that unless they are ready for it and I'm not going full out with my hook (which isn't all that great to being with), they are unable to capitalize on it and usually end up just blocking it (which is fair enough I suppose). Even with quick jabs and such, because of the lack of commitment from the attacker, traditional Aikido techniques do not seem to be effective unless the attack is out to destroy you in one shot. The best I could manage is to continuously slap away the jabs and try to maintain ma-ai by circling around. There are times where I will manage to get a quick grip on one of the attacking hooks but in his pull back I will lose it. I constantly felt on edge as the moment I lost my concentration, I risked being knocked out. It was a horrible feeling despite my attempts to remain calm. It just simply takes a lot more concentration to simply just 'react' to his attacks. There were some instructors that after my hook, they will try to 'take me down' and sure that may work against a boxer, but similarly a) a proper sprawl is easy to do against this and it's risky b) A takedown isn't one of the usual techniques taught in Aikido (yes yes I know a hook isn't either but it's a very common attack in rl) Now I'm no O-Sensei or anything but afaik, even in other boxing based disciplines, you are not expected to dodge these things on a consistent basis, what more move in and redirect the hand? Are we relegated to just slapping these jabs away and be locked in a stalemate? I did ponder briefly if this was indeed Aikido since there is the opportunity for you to avoid conflict if he's not committing and stalemating does seem to be a plausible outcome. I really am now at a crossroads in Aikido where I am tired of hearing 'do enough traditional techniques and you'll get the real techniques without thinking'. This just strikes off as 'I don't know what to do, just train'. I have been doing this for a good number of years now and have tested this against other experienced Aikidoka and have not found an acceptable solution. I have youtubed it and tested those applications and only find them useful in incorrect hooks. Perhaps my skill level isn't enough so i really really humbly seek this forum's feedback on this matter. I also note that the Aikido greats all went through that 'tough patch' like Gozo Shioda who actively sought out fights and Morihei who practiced in many different martial arts and also 'duelled'. It seems that without this trial of fire, your average Aikidoka is not equipped with the necessary fight perception (even in randoori), to perform Aikido at a reasonably practical level which was one of the reasons why I started taking other martial arts to see how these 'fight' perceptions are translated to Aikido effectiveness. It does help somewhat in that I can perceive attacks a lot faster and be much more calm when being attack after having sparred in other martial arts in more realistic environments which imo does translate to better Aikido. However, there is still no answer to a boxer who may be really raring to hurt you, but isn't going to open up with just one big punch, but instead a barrage followed by a finisher. I know Aikido is one of those arts that require many more years of experience compared to others, but it sucks that someone can go into six months of boxing or something similar and have more ready skills than someone with more than a decade of experience.

Hi Reuban,

CMD as in Crazy Monkey Defense taught at KDT by Vince Choo sensei? If so, ask Vince sensei to teach you the Vince Morris' Kissaki-kai techniques. IMO, that will take you further up the path of aikido.

You are trying to compare aikido techniques with other MA using the hook punch as an example. Spiritually, the answers are already in your post.

A couple of weeks ago, we have a 6th dan karate visitor at our dojo. He showed and taught us the fluid and soft side of karate - take-downs, grapplings, locks, etc. - all innate movements from the karate kata. A couple of enthusiastic blackbelts who have had only sport karate experience requested for video shoot so that they could learn all these stuff in his absence; his response to them was "go learn aikido" and compare the movements with the karate kata. Empty the cup, sometime a punch is more than a punch, a block is more than a block and a kick is....

Aikido for self-defense I have your share of experience with some armed-chair instructors here.

Happy training

David Y

Alejandro Villanueva wrote: This is from an encounter between Tadashi Abe and Minoru Mochizuki: Tadashi Abe -- "Although I have been observing Ueshiba Sensei for a long time, I don't feel like practicing an art like aiki jujutsu. I feel confident that I can defeat him with one boxing punch. I hear that you emphasize actual fighting. Is that true?" [...] Minoru Mochizuki -- "Attack me as you like!" Abe still mumbled: "Sensei, can I really strike you? Strange… You have openings everywhere…" Then he took a stance and suddenly came straight in. I dodged the blow and kicked him with my leg. He groaned and fell. I applied a resuscitation technique and massaged him.

So Abe, who was amazed Michozuki would allow him to hit him anywhere ... kicked Michozuki as he barged forward ?
Is that right?
The moral of THIS story : hit the aikidoka when he advances with poor guard?

Michael Douglas wrote: So Abe, who was amazed Michozuki would allow him to hit him anywhere ... kicked Michozuki as he barged forward ? Is that right? The moral of THIS story : hit the aikidoka when he advances with poor guard?

Actually it was Mochizuki Sensei who kicked Abe Sensei when the last tryed to punch the former. Mochizuki just "awased" the punch and kicked Abe. Isn't it what Aikido is about? Awase?

Boooooo...too much thought into this topic. Hooks are easy to defend against. 99% of the time the guy throwing them is no boxer or karateka. Which means he is way off balance. Which means it's a one punch deal. Raise your lead hand in a shomen like move half way up like your going to ask a question in a classroom...
when you stop the hook...well that's another topic all together.

Cheers all

Ps I've stopped this attack in real life on more than one occasion..It's easy

Pss A trained fighter is a different deal altogether..but then again most trained fighters are not in the business of attacking folks in the street

Cheers

Peter

Keep your mai, gokyu, atemi to the face, irimi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-V4d...layer_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW_oQEiXgWQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu4qOrThhE

David

you mean like this?

Hey there, i just thought I'd put my opinion in there.

If someone is really angry at you and wants you dead or concussed or whatever, remember that (well, at least in my cases) the person has a lot of adrenaline pulsing through them.

Adrenaline seems to make people get tunnel vision of some degree..
i remember when someone tried beating me up that he went for a straight jab from standard 'boxer' stance and as soon as i moved out of the way and wasn't directly in front of him he couldn't see me.

at which point i nailed him in the face.

maybe if you're fast then you could just do irimi steps and move out of the way and out of his then-limited vision?

(hoping he hasn't conditioned himself not to get too angry)

Domo arigatoo.

Josh Astridge wrote: ... and as soon as i moved out of the way and wasn't directly in front of him he couldn't see me.

As funny as this sounds I have to agree it can happen!
The angrier your enemy the more tunnelly his vision *might* be,
but you can only take advantage of it momentarily. Very good point though Josh and mostly ignored in discussion .

Not trying to state the obvious here, but if keeping a safe mai-ai doesn't work/isn't feasible, try kicking. Legs tend to be longer than arms. I know most Aikidoka don't 'study' kicking, but like it or not it's an important part of self defense, so shouldn't be ignored.

I really think Demetrio has the jest of it.

After the whole point of conservatively fighting from a guard/organised position, is not to expose yourself to counters, being able to defend easily and having a safe base to launch attack from.
There is really no point of getting to all that trouble if it is too launch a hay-maker from there and that is true fro a jab or cross or a take down attempt.

You kick or punch, if possible getting closes to follow with an elbow knee or grappling.
As Duken said a diagonal kick, round house kick, teph, chassé bas are good options, just as modern boxing or old Mendoza block wedge and counter or a MMA/BJJ DL or SL take down (or tenchi at the leg or aikiotchi)
But I think it is not that important compared to understanding that whatever atemi you do you need to move to the right place, and that to before you gain that place or you make them extend you will have to trade blows

Here is a few boxing video that explain to deal with different type of boxer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YS4Uo9kMpRU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KhypYu6sjg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhZVo9L-E1M
or usual boxing defence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0nz9BBFvLk

Or more for MMA settings
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLy-9JwYOgE

basically this is how they set up their how game so we can use that to set up our aiki game when thing have not started to well for us and our game plan

Something to ponder... the easiest way to throw a trained boxer of their game is to change your stance. There is nothing quite like the expression on a boxer's face when they've been tagging someone in an orthodox stance to have it turned southpaw on them.

It won't work on everyone but its enough in many cases to trip them up slightly. It forces an orthodox boxer to work to the outside and vice versa.

I've been booted out of a ring or two against a boxer by using elbows and knees in answer to the "rip". Its not considered good form, but there are few people that will take several elbow strikes full on to the forearm without thinking twice about the next punch.

I do remember some advice given to me whilst training in kyokushin, and that was to never engage a boxer in a straight up punching match.

I would agree on a few of the posts suggesting that you need to control the distance and the timing. Boxing is very much about rhythm, timing, distance and power (should be familiar to every martial artist out there) - if you can disrupt or control one or more of these you have at least one in on your opponent.

Sean Kelleher wrote: Something to ponder... the easiest way to throw a trained boxer of their game is to change your stance. There is nothing quite like the expression on a boxer's face when they've been tagging someone in an orthodox stance to have it turned southpaw on them. It won't work on everyone but its enough in many cases to trip them up slightly. It forces an orthodox boxer to work to the outside and vice versa. I've been booted out of a ring or two against a boxer by using elbows and knees in answer to the "rip". Its not considered good form, but there are few people that will take several elbow strikes full on to the forearm without thinking twice about the next punch. I do remember some advice given to me whilst training in kyokushin, and that was to never engage a boxer in a straight up punching match. I would agree on a few of the posts suggesting that you need to control the distance and the timing. Boxing is very much about rhythm, timing, distance and power (should be familiar to every martial artist out there) - if you can disrupt or control one or more of these you have at least one in on your opponent.

Yes it is matter of using what they do to gain advantage on each other to develop our game instead of playing what they are good at.
Now it could be argued that sokumen irimi nage is nothing more that a particular way of finishing a cross, elbow or hook

That being said you may very well do aikido against a defensive boxer and to an onlooker it will look more like old English pugilism than aikido or boxing, at least for a while.

phil