Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Dan, I know you didn't mention chest, kidneys etc. That was my perspective on the scenario and was simply pointing out that the falling to the ground was to move down the continium to a "better" position than having that happen to you. It is all realitive to the situation. Legs are less risky than the core. the Most vital Arteries on the legs are on the back of the knee, hamstrings, and on the front Femoral. On your front it is more difficult for someone to get to your vital arterial areas. They have to bend down and underhook to get to the back of the knee. Again, we can argue all day long. It is realitive to situation and "what if"..so not perfect and only an "option" or perspective. yea..no kidding...if I have a choice I wouldn't go to the ground either. Guys that think BJJ guys "want" to fight from the ground have no experience in BJJ and really don't understand the dynamics of fighting. I was of this limited mindset myself several years ago! I admit it is scary if you have rudimentary skills in ground fighting! Also, to re-interate...BJJ guys don't default to the ground by choice in a real fight...they simply are more efficient than those that refuse to accept this as a fact that it happens! We train with Tasers on occasion. Much more effective and realistic than sticks...try it out if you haven't. Nothing like pain to get the message across to get out of the way and positive control of the situation!

i would have to agree a taser could be the best thing to train with if you train for knife or gun defense ,maybe the best way to ki up acuteness .

i think it can't be stressed enough about psychology .basic formula that there are specific methods like kotekaeshi designed to, in their successful execution ,effectively neutralize the situation .but even if sufficiently mastered in all aspects including the kaeshi waza for countering ,the mindset should be to not want to get into it unless it is unavoidable and at absolutely the most vulnerable moment .and if being performed by an armed constable it would be the gun and not the techniques you'd use .

Thanks for taking the time to contribute Jason.

I have not seen your fight yet, January or February right? Hope it went well.

What a coincidence! I just got to the States this afternoonn and went by Borders to stock up on my Reading materials, just so happens I grabbed UFC2 "classics. Just looked at it and realized your fight with Royce is on it!

I agree with your comments about "not wanting to get into it". Closing the distance in the ring is one thing, doing it, or having it done to you in a real situation is tricky. As you state, the pyschology, avoiding the stiuation, and minimizing risk and exposure, having to think, and all that at the same time!

At the point where the technique might work, comes quickly, and goes quickly.

Xu Wenfung wrote: MMA people argue:- TMA people (including Aikido-ka) sucks because they don't spar live and do resistant randori and does not join Pride, K-1 to prove their prowess. TMA people argue:- MMA sucks because they only concentrate on ring fight with man made rules and do not do weapon based training, hence is not realistic enough. Well, depending on how you see it, both side think that each other sucks. There you go... enternally a catch 22 situation. Have we reach the 1,000th post yet?... No? ... Damn! Here is a game, the first person to reach 1,000th post will get free aikiweb m'ship for free. How is that? Jun? Game for this challenge?

Well put. This thread has been going for about a year now!

Well, depending on how you see it, both side think that each other sucks. There you go... enternally a catch 22 situation.

What would we call "a catch 22" if Mr Heller hadn't written the book?

Not a very constructive addition to a flogging a dead horse thread, but one step closer to someone winning the coveted prize

Kevin Leavitt wrote: ...I agree with your comments about "not wanting to get into it". Closing the distance in the ring is one thing, doing it, or having it done to you in a real situation is tricky. As you state, the pyschology, avoiding the stiuation, and minimizing risk and exposure, having to think, and all that at the same time! At the point where the technique might work, comes quickly, and goes quickly.

amen ,brother!

Xu Wenfung wrote:
MMA people argue:- TMA people (including Aikido-ka) sucks because they don't spar live and do resistant randori and does not join Pride, K-1 to prove their prowess.

TMA people argue:- MMA sucks because they only concentrate on ring fight with man made rules and do not do weapon based training, hence is not realistic enough.

Well, depending on how you see it, both side think that each other sucks. There you go... enternally a catch 22 situation.


I disagree completely. I think the only question is one of self assessment and openess in realizing the strengths and weaknesses for what they are.
And it should be said BTW
Some- MMA guys think TMA guys suck.... not all.
Some- TMA guys are doing MMA.
Jason fights professionally and is trying to incorporate TMA principles. The rest of us are not on that level of profesionalism but I know half a dozen guys like me who have trained extensively in TMA and Koryu who continue to be honest about MMA training. Of those several use knives and sticks that have nothing to do with a ring setting either.

There is just as much....scratch that...probably MORE laughter and fun in rolling and banging as there is in Aikido-its not as formal. And there is no where near as big a deal about winning and losing. I have never understood the fear of it. What? A teacher can't lose? You win, you loose, you roll, and learn.
I say go out, have fun, and just relax. You may find you actually LIKE the MMA guys more or at least as well as your TMA friends.
Try some CMA guys while you're at it.
Its all good
Gotto go work.
Cheers
Dan

In one of the arts i teach it is MMA, the other Aikido is in my mind for a completely different thing.
Aikido can work for real in a fight, but if you train your whole life for a fight that never comes, you have waisted your life. Aikido is for both, martial(street) and holistic development, I think if you focused aiki training like Ueshiba did under the old Hell Dojo days it would prove dangerous in the ring, which is exactly why they changed the rules to exclude certain techniques. So Honestly MMa is as real as it can get and keep it relatively safe, and Aikido is as real as it gets in a whole life approach ( if you train correctly) IE Dancing: don't get me wrong, Dancing has it's place in the learning the basics part of aikido, i mean dealing with forces ( however slow that may be) we train with force but often slow speed to learn.

Burt Masem wrote: Well put. This thread has been going for about a year now!

Nope:

10-17-2000, 05:14 PM #1
"joeysola"
IP: --.217.144.230
Join Date: Aug 2000

Five and a half!

So, any summaries of the preceding? Why did this troll get such a return yellowing the snow here?

Dan Wrote:

VWhat? A teacher can't lose? You win, you loose, you roll, and learn.

FWIW, i fought today in the "King of the Alps", a submission tournament with no time limit, no rules cept no hitting or kicking basically, won the first fight after 20 minutes by a ezeikel choke. Lost the next two in about 2 minutes each by omaplata, and arm bar and was out of the fight.

Had a good time, learned alot, and developed some new friends today!

I made all 6 of my guys fight as well. Told em it was not important if they won or loss, but that they had the courage to set their ego aside, enter the ring, face an unknown opponent and go to battle with him.

They all lost ultimately, but we had a good time, and I believe they are better off and learned valuable lessons of budo today and had a good time!

Nothing wrong with losing. It is not about the winning or the losing, it is about the courage to do something.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: FWIW, i fought today in the "King of the Alps", a submission tournament with no time limit, no rules cept no hitting or kicking basically, won the first fight after 20 minutes by a ezeikel choke. Lost the next two in about 2 minutes each by omaplata, and arm bar and was out of the fight. Had a good time, learned alot, and developed some new friends today! ....

Nice attitude. I think if more people could resist the allure of victory, Osensei wouldn't have proscribed competition.

this thread seems to continue around in circles........

Daniel Hulley wrote: this thread seems to continue around in circles........

Maybe, but it's something that's going to be discussed as long as there are people and Aikido, so it may as well happen here. And the discussion does veer off slightly in one direction or another as new people join the forum, so that brings at least somewhat different viewpoints.

Let's face it, there are people out there who still say some variant of one of these:
1. Aikido does not work at all in a fight
2. Aikido works fine if you train correctly
3. If you have to use Aikido because you are in a fight, your Aikido has already failed

So we may as well talk about it here. And every once in a while as participants change, the discussion will produce a new pearl that might cause at least one to rethink some aspect of training.

Come to think of it, I believe that's my 5.5 year summary.

I wonder what Joeysola's doing now?

I bet joeysola's a l337 kiLLzorz.

Thanks for the comments Wendy. I second your opinions. That is why after all these years I still contribute and discuss on this thread.

That and I secretly want to see it reach 1000!

Yes, I agree this question must and should be asked by all aikidoka at some point in their aikido career.

Wendy Rowe wrote: 1. Aikido does not work at all in a fight 2. Aikido works fine if you train correctly 3. If you have to use Aikido because you are in a fight, your Aikido has already failed Come to think of it, I believe that's my 5.5 year summary.

Suspected as much.

Much obliged.

I wonder what Joeysola's doing now?

Me, too.

Don J. Modesto wrote: wendyrowe wrote: I wonder what Joeysola's doing now? Me, too.

Possibly playing "Get Tiffany" http://www.gettiffany.com/archive.as...ofile&a=222948
and jumping cardboard boxes http://www3.youtube.com/watch?v=btzf...earch=joeysola but technically that's off topic. Unless he can't fight his way out of a cardboard box using Aikido.

Brian Cates wrote: Keith, as an example of what I am talking about, I would refer you to this YouTube presentation in which Sensei Gozo Shioda, the founder of Yoshinkan Aikido, is giving a demonstration. http://www.youtube.com/watch?search=...&v=1sCevYMrZtY Shioda liked to illustrate the principle I am talking about by having his uke rush toward him fast and try to shove him hard in the chest. Just at the moment the uke's hands are about to make contact with his chest, Sensei Shido moves his entire being forward less than one inch, almost imperceptibly. The results are quite marked. The attacker is covering distance, has momentum; Shioda Sensei seems to hardly move. Yet what is the result? The uke is thrown violently to the floor. I simply did this to an opponent who was bent over, head down, trying to wrap up my knees. If done with proper timing, *(Heck, EVERY AIKIDO TECH. HAS TO BE DONE WITH PROPER TIMING) the results speak for themselves. Get the timing wrong, go to early, go too late, don't go strong enough, etc. of course it won't work. But I've gotten that one right several times, so it's just not a nice theory that I have.

It is video demonstrations like the one shown in this thread that diminish the reputation of Aikido and is why I chose to do BJJ. Please don't think that I'm trolling here. I don't wish to start a "whose art is better" kinda post here. I just want to share with you why I chose to do BJJ, even though my personality much more fits Aikido.

Admittingly, I've only been doing martial arts (BJJ) for 6 months now. When I was trying to figure out which art to go with, I had extensively researched and considered three arts. Aikido, Muay Thai, BJJ. When researching, I looked at a lot of martial arts forums/videos as well as random street fights that were caught on tape. The video demonstrations I found on Aikido struck me more like WWF Wrestling. They seem completely staged and non-believable. Anyone who believes for instance, the deadly toe grip that was demonstrated in this clip can inflict that much pressure to another toe is the same type of person who would believe televengilists cure people of their ailments by hitting their heads on TV. Also, that multiple attacker senario is so complete BS it's not even funny. My personal favorite of course are touchless throws. How many of you people really believe this stuff? It seems like Aikido is treated more like a religion by those who practice it, which is what kinda turned me off. How can one teach the concept of Chi without showing any empirical evidence of it's existence. The concept of Chi is much like the concept of God. You have to have faith. As a scientist by trade, I refuse to believe in something that is not proven by some sort of empirical evidence.

After watching many UFCs (I know, I'm ducking my head in shame right now) and random street fights on tape, it became clear to me that all fights are chaotic. They are not pretty as demonstrated in the movies or aikido clips. In all the street fight videos I saw, almost all of them went to the ground. Whether you want to take the fight to the ground or not, chances are you will wind up their either voluntarily or involuntarily, and you better know what to do when you get there. Muay Thai seemed too violent to me which is why I chose BJJ. BJJ and Aikido intruiged me because it was a way a smaller person can defeat a larger person without inflicting injury if desired (even though I am 6' 200lbs). I think why many of you Aikidoka have a complex about your art's effectiveness is because many of you don't train live at 100% against a fully resisting opponent. It's clear by how long this thread has been going on and how many posts there are that there is some kind of insecurity amongst you regarding effectiveness. Live sparring helps build confidence but does not suit aikido because it is too dangerous to train like we do in BJJ. I know many of you must question whether you'd be able to pull of an aikido technique in a real situation. I don't question that I would be able to pull of my BJJ in a real situation with an untrained opponent even if they had 50 lbs on me. I know because I've done it to the newbies in my dojo. This is what I call the Aikido paradox. O'Sensei perfected his art through years and years of studying other martial arts and practicing live. He often accepted challanges even after developing Aikido. This begs the question why is it not done this way now? In
order to master aikido like O'Sensei, you must train and fight like he did which is paradoxical because it is against the principles of Aikido. There is no doubt that O'Sensei was a great man, but he is still a man and that makes him fallible as well as a bit hypocritical for developing a martial art that you train not to use since he achieved his proficancy by the application of his technique.

Also, regarding the stereotyping of the typical BJJ practitioner. It is completely false. There are maybe 3 guys I've seen at my dojo that fit that discription. If I told you that people who practice Aikido are Hybrid driving granola eating tree hugging overweight middle-aged hippies, I'm sure you'd be able to find a few in your dojo that fit that discription, but it would not be the norm. Most BJJ acadamies offer a free lesson. I think many of you would like it if you tried it. Just my thoughts.

As I said, my intention was not to troll here. Only to demonstrate the logic as to my decision not to take Aikido as my first martial art. I intend to take it up in the future because i can see some useful applications of the technique. However, in no way am I ever going to believe I can throw someone with my chi, fight multiple opponents or handle someone with a weapon. I might as well believe I can learn how to do Darth Vader's force choke.

D

Drew,

Welcome and good luck with the start of your martial career.

That you are new to aikido and MA in general i'd be very careful about forming opinions and conclusions about things you may not completely understand.

I and many others certainly share many of the concerns you mention. I did not watch the video, nor do I really care to.

There is good aikido, bad aikido...as well as good BJJ and bad BJJ. Don't judge the whole art and those who practice it by a few videos etc.

I also recommend you read through the 5 plus years of material that this thread covers. You will find it very enlightening to say the least. It will answer every argument and concern that you have...I guarantee!

In aikido you will find some very practical people. Also you will find people that study martial arts and aikido for a multitude of reasons. That does not excuse poor aikido, because regardless of the reasons for studying the art...one should never study poor aikido!

You will find that Aikido tends to be a principle based art. That is, most of us concern ourselves with studying the underlying dynamics that make things work. They are universal in nature, thus apply to BJJ and any other art based on sound theory and principle.

For that reason you will find many of us that train in both MMA, BJJ, and Aikido.

If you need proof, check out Jason Delucia above. If you watch UFC, you will know who he is.

In all due respect, I don't think your conclusions about O'sensei are necessarily correct.

Drew wrote:

There is no doubt that O'Sensei was a great man, but he is still a man and that makes him fallible as well as a bit hypocritical for developing a martial art that you train not to use since he achieved his proficancy by the application of his technique.

Not sure I really understand what you are referring to here, but I think you may be missing the point of aikido and what it was created for. Again, please spend sometime reading through this and a few other threads to see what many of us have discussed concerning this issue over the years.

Also, concerning the insecurity issue about people and the effectiveness of aikido. No, again, I think you are missing the whole point. You have to look much deeper and see that fighting, conflict, mental and physical are very, very complex subjects.

Are there people in aikido that can't fight there way out of a paper bag? Sure there are! There are also people that have learned to be very skillfull at resolving conflict in many other ways through the study of aikido, not necessarily represented or marked by physicality.

Are there people in BJJ that can't fight there way out of a paper bag? Absolutely. A criticism that I might offer is that many of them don't develop skills that help them skillfully resolve conflict at a lower level.

Lets not really go there right now though as we'd be here another 5 years discussing this issue that has no end or quantifiable answer!

Certainly a sophmoric view of fighting/conflict allows us to resolve all conflict physically. If this is all we were concerned with, there really would be no need for studying empty handed martial arts BJJ, Aikido, or otherwise....think about it!

Most of us develop a very simplistic and over romanticized view about fighting, conflict, and what it envolves. Most of that comes from the Media that we read, watch, and listen to.

Aikido is about much more than developing rudimentary fighting skills that are "combat effective" (TM).

If you are sincere in your efforts to explore aikido for what it can offer you. I believe you will find many skilled and experienced people here that will be patient and answer many of your questions and concerns.

You will find that we tend not to be argumentative in nature, but will not hesitate to disagree or to offer a counter opinion.

One reason I like Aikiweb is that the conversations tend to be mature, well thought out, and sincere in wanting to better understand aikido, conflict, and all things martial.

again, I'd recommend keeping an open mind toward aikido, but do go forward and challenge people and thoughts, that is what this is all about!

Also, you live in No California. There are many, many, many wonderful aikido dojos there with experienced sensei's and intructors that are not about parlor tricks and what not. That said, it is a much different environment than a BJJ dojo, and it may not be what you are looking for if you are looking for fast, immediate, and effective skills only.

However, if you are interested in other aspects of what martial arts can offer you, I'd seek out a few of these dojos and have an open mind!

Good luck!

Kevin, do you believe me now? I hope you do.
I am referring Drew Nichols post.

Hey Drew,

I suggest you break your post up to a few posts... we are in a race to see who gets to post the 1,000th post in this thread. You can also win the coveted title of being the 1,000th poster in this thread... aren't you excited?

And Drew, I am very sure when you wrote the composition you felt like having an epiphany but sadly "yawn", your argument is old, stale and sounds like a broken record.

And yes, Mohammad H, I get your point.

p/s 230 more posts to go...

Mohammed,

you'd have to restate your point. I went back and read it and I am not that clear.

Drew seems to be sincere. I would not put him in the troll category yet.

It was his first post. I would not put him in the troll category yet.

He openly states he has only been studying MA for 6 months. So it would stand to reason based on his observations that he would have the opinions and conclusions that he has formed. Many which, frankly, are not incorrect on the surface from his perspective of fighting.

Frankly many aikidoka do harbor feeling of insecurity and do feel threatened by BJJ. That however, is a personal conflict within themselves and should not be conveyed on the art or categorically on all that study aikido.

I can only offer to those that do feel this way, that they need to get over it somehow. one, either accept their own self imposed limitations, or two, go study BJJ! No need to create an argument about how much more effective BJJ is over aikido. That is not the point, and what I am saying is totally different than that. The freshman view of the world might offer this...but again, it is much more complex!

Again, at this point I think based on the information he has collected from his own limited experiences his conclusions are honest, sincere, and not entirely incorrect. He simply might want to keep an open mind and not dismiss things.

I did this many years ago, and wasted many years of valuable training. It all depends on what you are looking for in your training.

I will tell you that I studied aikido and karate for about 12 years and then stepped in the world of MMA and NHB fighting and had my ass handed to me by grapplers and BJJers with less than a years experience. It really was hard to face this fact and I seriously doubted all the years I had spent training...it is a scary thing to have that facade broken down.

So I think there is some validity to the reputation "we" earn as aikidoka sometimes.

However, it depends on your goals and really is an individual decision to make. If the shoe fits wear it, if not...then it is irrelevant!


Learning to be a good and effective fighter was very important to me. It is also important to me to learn the skills that aikido teaches. Hopefully one day I will understand all this stuff and be able to put it back together for my own brand of understanding!

So, I guess Mohammed, I am willing to entertain those that come along and look at aikido and see it as something different than maybe you or I do. You might want to look deep inside yourself. Maybe the frustration is not the fact that a few young inexperienced BJJers are trashing your beloved art, but that deep down inside you intrinsically know it has not rounded you out as well as you may like to be as a Martial Artist. Maybe this is what really bothers you about it.

I only point this out, because that was what I found out for myself. Aikido was not the issue, other aikidoka were not the issue, it was me and what I needed and wanted out of a martial art.

To me it is sort of like a bad marriage. Nothing wrong with the two people in the relationship, but sometimes we try too hard to make it into something it is not, that causes conflict and it may never ever be resolved by trying harder. Sometimes we must "let go" and admit to ourselves that we have to move on, or do something else to get fulfilled in another way.

Or something like that!

Sorry to get so preachy I am just passionate about all this stuff!

Kevin Leavitt wrote: I will tell you that I studied aikido and karate for about 12 years and then stepped in the world of MMA and NHB fighting and had my ass handed to me by grapplers and BJJers with less than a years experience. It really was hard to face this fact and I seriously doubted all the years I had spent training...it is a scary thing to have that facade broken down. So I think there is some validity to the reputation "we" earn as aikidoka sometimes.

The exact same thing happened to me. It can definitely be disheartening. A wave of different emotions and thoughts moved through me afterwards. Confusion, disbelief, frustration, anger... It was probably the anger that kept me going though.

It was a big step for me to put aside 7 years of Aikido and switch to Sambo/MMA and become a beginner again. However, the more time I spend in Sambo/MMA the more I find similarities between Aikido and my new training. Aikido's principles are universal, they just manifest themselves very differently in grappling/MMA. I still maintain that really high-level grapplers have some of the most Aiki-type movement I've encountered. They are masters of subtlety.

I asked in another thread:

"Also in terms of "ego," are we sure that it is not the ego that is holding some of us back from testing out techniques in a "live" environment? In Aikido there is always a set outcome when one is shite(we win), in "live" training there is no such guarantee. Can we be sure it is not the ego in ourselves as Aikido practitioners, as our technique "always" works (we were told so!), that is keeping us from stepping outside of our comfort zone and discovering how techniques work for ourselves? Could we not handle the bruising to our ego when our techniques do not work?"

I think they're pretty relevent questions to an Aikidoka who wants to be honest with themselves in terms of the martial effectiveness of their training.

Keith Lee wrote: The exact same thing happened to me. It can definitely be disheartening. A wave of different emotions and thoughts moved through me afterwards. Confusion, disbelief, frustration, anger... It was probably the anger that kept me going though. It was a big step for me to put aside 7 years of Aikido and switch to Sambo/MMA and become a beginner again. However, the more time I spend in Sambo/MMA the more I find similarities between Aikido and my new training. Aikido's principles are universal, they just manifest themselves very differently in grappling/MMA. I still maintain that really high-level grapplers have some of the most Aiki-type movement I've encountered. They are masters of subtlety. I asked in another thread: "Also in terms of "ego," are we sure that it is not the ego that is holding some of us back from testing out techniques in a "live" environment? In Aikido there is always a set outcome when one is shite(we win), in "live" training there is no such guarantee. Can we be sure it is not the ego in ourselves as Aikido practitioners, as our technique "always" works (we were told so!), that is keeping us from stepping outside of our comfort zone and discovering how techniques work for ourselves? Could we not handle the bruising to our ego when our techniques do not work?" I think they're pretty relevent questions to an Aikidoka who wants to be honest with themselves in terms of the martial effectiveness of their training.

while both of you make extremely valid points, i will claim that you are throwing this way out of proportion.

IMextremelyHO, if a person ever attacks you, it will never be an experienced martial artist. through years of training, a martial artist learns respect, discipline, etc. there's no way a MMA master or a Shodan is going to break into your house, or threaten your life.

so with that being said, Aikido should be plenty effective against your average scumbag that doesn't know what he's doing, or a friend of yours that loses his cool. again, imo, martial arts is for self defense against people who cannot control their anger or rely on strength to "win". martial arts is *not* for self defense against other martial artists.

I'd offer a couple (I think) related questions:

Do you want to train to prepare for the average person? Do you want to train to prepare for a determined and skilled attack?

I don't think it's necessarily an either or case, but I would agree with that playing with others (I'm still looking for those reviews of the Machado workshop at Aiki Expo!! ) to see what they do can be very fun and enlightening.

I had the same question that you pose Budd.

Also consider this. We tend to like to think that attacks will come with warning and we will have time and space to deal with them.

I thought the same things and had the same ideas about what a common unskilled attack would be like. That is until I was doing MOUT/CQB training and I entered a room and a non-skilled guy jumped me, took me down, and mounted me. No amount of training I had ever done had prepared me for such an event. He was just an average guy, with average skills, with no background in martial arts. He mounted me and proceeded to choke me. I struggled hard, gassed and that was all she wrote!

Okay, I know that you are probably saying well that is a military scenario. I think that many attacks will go this direction, i.e. guy jumps you without warning. I learned that it does not necessarily take much skill to overpower and dominate someone.

Many of the skills you learn in aikido are good for situations, however, most of them require that you have established a kamai and proper timing and distance. This is why aikido works so well for law enforcement as they more often than not will have established the situation well in advance, they control it, and allow it to develop.

I don't think I am throwing it out of proportion at all. I never claimed that aikido was irrelevant, or not valid/appropriate. Only valid and appropriate for what it is designed to do in it's methodology.

There are other training methodologies that work well for other things that may or may not be important to you.

I only ask that you think hard about the situations you may find yourself in, and then evaluate what you might do or be able to do in that particular situation.

If this is not important to you. I have no issue with it.