Does aikido teach you to fight?

Originally posted by BRIAN H I take Aikido because its more about control than force. That is not only Nage's control over Uke, but Nage's control over Nage. Unlike Colleen, I am not in the military, but in civilian law enforcement. Air strikes are not an option (except in Philadelphia) so I must confront persons who I am called to deal with. If a crime is in progress I must go the scene and help, it would be immoral for me not to. If the situation can not be immediately dealt with than we will surround and contain it. You can not say that every criminal will give up when confronted by the Police (I lost a peer afew months ago who confronted someone over an offense that only would have resulted in a ticket, and had a bullet wizz by the ear of a friend involved in a equally trival incident) Sometimes you have to fight because others will suffer or die if you don't.

Then it seems like me, you fight as part of your job---but is that why you do Aikido (it may be, it is not for me). There is some chance, in these changing times, that air crew will end up fighting on the ground (look at who made up the majority of POWs during the Gulf War). We may be used to 'visiting' war a la BAT 21, but we recognize more and more that we may end up in the middle of it.

Should I bail out in enemy territory, I think I would find more comfort in my 9 mm (and the fact that I shoot Expert) than my Aikido training (and a lofty 5th kyu).Even with Dan rank, I think I'd still go with the 9 mm. Before my brother joined the FBI he was an LAPD officer, in the first class taught Aikido techniques. The academy brought all the rookies back after a year in the field, to see how that training had gone. My brother said that they recalled very little Aikido, but most had bought saps.

I came to Aikido to change me, not to protect me or control others. If folks want to look for warrior status in Aikido training that is OK with me, but don't expect me to join in. Military life is 24/7 and fills that need in me (and then some). Same thing for those who need it for self defense. I see both of those needs as valid, so they should be able to see those who are seeking a change in self as a third and equally valid reason.

The question is Does Aikido teach you to fight.

Seems the answers have deviated a bit. The question does not really relate to why you are doing Aiikido in so far as if you are not interested in fighting it wont turn you into a fighter against your will.

A friend and sempai, who by coincidence spent his time as a ranger in the Israeli army followed by a stint as a VIP body guard said "Aikido's great but if you want self defense buy a gun". His premis wasn't that Aikido was useless in this regard just that there are far easier ways to prepare yourself. However, his approach to Aikido was very much directed towards its roots.

Winning a fight boils down to having the right frame of mind and Aikido training can prepare you for that. Like all training it is preparation - the only way to learn how to fight is through direct experience. The way I learnt my Aikido (with the above mentioned sempai) was a focus on that mental preparation. Never did quite get that explosive aggression which is so effective but pressure under duress was definately part of the training.

Here's another point of view.

Does aikido teach you to fight?

Vera says: Yes.

Sometimes you don't have your gun. Knowing Aikido is better than knowing nothing. Maybe you'll fight your way into a window of freedom in which to run away. Maybe you'll break someone's wrist. Better than standing there doing nothing. This is if your life is threatened, not just your wallet/purse.

Sometimes using your gun would constitute murder, not self defence. I've been grabbed in bars by drunks. I've been threatened by another woman who just wanted to fight. It would be nice to be able to get a wrist lock on someone like that. I had a drunk guy grab me from behind, lock my arms with his, and I couldn't stop him. My friends intervened to get him off of me. The woman who threatened me put me in a head lock and dragged me around. I couldn't stop her either. Aikido would have helped.

Just some observations. I'm not talking about philosophy. I'm talking about why I practice throwing someone using their striking hand motion towards my head or their action of grabbing for my wrist. It's not fun when someone really does grab your wrist/head/shirt and puts you in a helpless position.

Originally posted by PeterR The question is Does Aikido teach you to fight. Seems the answers have deviated a bit. The question does not really relate to why you are doing Aiikido in so far as if you are not interested in fighting it wont turn you into a fighter against your will.

I am sorry, but I do believe the questions were:
"So, do you believe that aikido teaches you to fight?"
"Did you start practicing aikido to learn how to fight?"
"Do you think aikido helps you to fight?"

I could very well be mistaken, but it does seem to be asking if we are doing Aikido in order to fight, and if that is the purpose and end result of Aikido.

So they were - my mistake.

Originally posted by ca I am sorry, but I do believe the questions were: "So, do you believe that aikido teaches you to fight?" "Did you start practicing aikido to learn how to fight?" "Do you think aikido helps you to fight?" I could very well be mistaken, but it does seem to be asking if we are doing Aikido in order to fight, and if that is the purpose and end result of Aikido.

I do not understand buying a gun,in situations in life we can find ourselves fighting for very small reasons and not reasons that warrant shooting someone surely your aikido would come in handy in theses situations neh?

does Aikido teach you to fight?? well, maye it depeneds I know it teacehes you to defend yourself but fight donno...

well the fact is I have never been in a "real" fight with blood or bad intent in school we push or sometimes get into "mock" fights that are ok.. sure I have posted how I have used aikido thows but the fact in the matter is they were to impress people ( o-sensi scrowling at me in heaven but if I want to impress people most of the time I just do the unbendable arm!

do I ever wanna fight? not really I would rather just annoy people!
but if I do get in a fight i feel I have some resourses to stop or end the confrimination without violent intent. sure I might sprain his arm ( only in dire need) but I hope i wont be angry. but then again i have never been in a real life death money no money confrontation... so I am as stupid as a cow... well gotta go.. psat tommrow


cya

I don't think aikido is about fighting. O sensei wrote "The Art of Peace." I think that aikido is about gaining control of a situation. I believe good aikido defeats an opponent by demoralizing him. If an opponent sees you are in total control of him, he loses his will to fight. If you want to defeat opponents physically, you should try the chinese art of Won Hop Loong Chuan, which is based on Sun Tzu's "Art of War."

IMHO

Hey, Dallas, good luck on your psat! I think in more ways than one you are much smarter than you think. To read these threads you'd think all we ever did as humans was walk around getting jumped/having our loved ones threatened/all our money stolen.

I have a plaque that hangs at eye level for pilots in my exam room, that I use as a focus point for them when I do a fundoscopic exam. It reads "A superior pilot is one who avoids situations that require use of his superior skills'.

As for the 'buy a gun' response, well: for some of us (military/police), we are given weapons to do our job, and I don't do Aikido to replace mine in a war situation. I understand England and other countries would not have that (civilian) option, but I don't advocate guns for civilians, anyway (uh oh, I feel something bad about to happen). I carry one when issued for conflicts, period.

I do agree that an instructor can't tell his/her students how to live, I do think that we can, and should, let them know that it is possible to live our lives off the mat in the same way that we act on the mat. I.e., with integrity, honesty, and compassion.
Like so many things, we can only show people the door, and they have to decide to go through on their own.
My wife left her study of ba gua with a local instructor because he thinks that he is a guru to his students, telling my wife she would have to stop aikido to learn from him, and punishing one of his students after seeing her in an aerobics class (and you know how dangerous those can be).

Does Aikido teach you to fight????

I would say Aikido, and most other arts teach you to not fight?

Can Aikido teach you how to fight?

No, although it can help you develope certain attributes/skills that are essential to surviving a fight. Ie. sensitivity, timing, spatial relationaship, body mechanics, ect.

Aikido is more 'self perfection' than `self preservation' ( at least in my experience, and from what I`ve researched, and seen)

Aikido is great martial art with many benefits but the development of savvy street fighters is not one of them...Why??
I feel that the attacks in Aikido are extremely unrealistic and quite often telegraphed. It lacks directness, and simplicity. It tends to overcomplicate.
And many Aikidoists that I have trained with
carry on with an attitude that they 'above' using tools such as an eyejab, a headbutt, a knee to the groin, elbows, ect, ect....

Things in Aikido that I feel are useful to self preservation. The locking, the flow, the path of least resistance concept. The weapons work, ( asides from the knife disarms)

Learning to be a competant fighter requires skill in all ranges of combat (Kicking, boxing, trapping/clinch, and ground.) In requires the correct mental attitude( if you`ve decided there is no other option than to fight, then turn on your killer instinct end things ASAP and get out of there) It requires learning how to fight with, and defend against weapons, and improvised weapons. Also, learning to fight requires one to go outside of any system, ( an open mind realizing that no one system has the monopoly on everything) research for yourself, find what you can make work for you, and test things against progressively resisting and varied training partners to see how it it works in real time.

You ever hear the saying he rose to the occation... A fighter never rises to the occassion, he/she dropped to the level of training. You fight like you train.

This post was in no way meant to offend anyone, and »I`m sorry if it has.

Peace,
J

Why Aikido? To me the best demonstations of my "skills" outside the dojo as a police officer have resulted in little or no struggle by the arrestee (aka scumbag or "Uke"). I moved to a better position (irimi) and got the arrestee so he had to make gross body movements (like punching around his own head) to get at me. The situation I try for is to get them so they will either give up or I can deal with them more easily than a face to face slugging match (in those fights you loss even when you win - Rodney King et al) I am a realitively big guy at 6'00" tall and 215 lbs., but there are a lot of people out there who are bigger, stonger, motivated or just plain nuts.

So, does Aikido teach you to fight? Yes, but it is better at teaching you to fight smart, both physically and mentally. You can take someones balance without ever touching them. I once went to assist another officer with a loud drunk. The "contact" officer was standing in front of the guy and was keeping him at arms length with verbal commands and hand gestures. I had not said a word to anybody since walking up to a "cover" postion, behind and to the right of the guy. When the guy stepped up to the officer for the tenth time cussing and such, I firmly commanded him to "step back and keep your hands out of your pockets." Well, his head spun around in shock to find little old me standing back there. His whole body twisted 180 degrees, but his feet never moved. As a result he fell flat on his face at my feet (you really shouldn't have you hands in your pockets when yelling at the cops) I thought to myself "ikkyo!"

Aikido does not teach one how to fight, it teaches how to avoid a fight, how to defend against an attack, how to stay within the moment so as to better control the situation. As far as guns are concerned, it is better to have a gun and not need it, than to not have one and need it. If samurai were around today you can be damn sure they would replace their swords with guns, and would be just as effective.

Just some random thoughts...

-Jim.

"If samurai were around today you can be damn sure they would replace their swords with guns"

I'm not so sure. They didn't replace their swords with guns when they were around. Their swords were sacred to them.

Who can really say for certain?

One thing is for certain. It's useful to know Aikido if involved in a fight.

Well considering that the primary weapon of the samurai was not the sword during any historical battles and that the winning side of Tokugawa's little power grab did so because they utilized firearms more effectively than the opposition - I think the initial statement is correct.

The sacred sword soul of the samurai is a bit of a romantisization (sp?).

Originally posted by Jon S. "If samurai were around today you can be damn sure they would replace their swords with guns" I'm not so sure. They didn't replace their swords with guns when they were around. Their swords were sacred to them. Who can really say for certain? One thing is for certain. It's useful to know Aikido if involved in a fight.

Aikido is a form for examining controlled conflict.

Darin Hyde wrote: Aikido is all about fighting. We train to attain perfection in our movements. These movements are designed for one thing. That is defeating an opponent. Everyone is talking about love. Tell me, what are you tested on at gradings? Your personality? Should we forget about techniques and just all hold hands and sing folk songs. Most important thing is to train hard. Concentrate on learning the techniques. We shouldn't have to go to aikido to become better people. Its not what it is meant for.

At first I thought you were joking, but, sadly, I think now you are not. Here is how I would alter your statement:

Aikido is all about resolution of conflict. We train and strive to resonate with the perfection in the universal which are reflected in our movements. These movements are designed for one thing, striving for the perfection of our souls through the resolution of conflict.
Everyone is talking about love ! When you are tested, your proper Shihan will see the flow of ki from your universal centered spirit. He will see you heart open with gratitude as the forces of heaven and earth merge within you and by extension, to your fellow human. Your techniques flow through you like a deep river and at the completion of your interaction, nothingness prevails. No hatred, or pride of winning. Revenge does not swell in your "opponents" chest.
You have both won the match. No one has been defeated but the harmony of the contact has raised the level of exchange from the animal to the human. Then we can hold hands and sing folk songs.
The most important thing is to train hard (and soft). Concentrate on learning what O' Sensei taught. Inner and outer technique.
We don't have to do Aikido to be better people, we want to do Aikido to be better people.
It is what it is meant for.

Sorry, if I sound self righteous, but I really want to believe you don't mean what you say. But that is just me, idealist to the end.
God Bless you and keep you.
Mike Galante

I learned much of Karate, however little of Aikido, the funny thing is I would prefer an Aikido defense rather then to use Karate. If I used Karate I believe I will get hit however mindlessly destroy my attacker, but with Aikido I might even make them smile. I've been in alot of fights and it is not half as much fun trying to kill your attacker dead. It is fun however to practice ma'ai whilst standing as untouchable as a shadow.

Whats with the resurection of ancient threads lately?

Paul Nowicki wrote: Whats with the resurection of ancient threads lately?

It looks like a plan.
Jorge

Wow...this thread brings back memories of a few people I used to practice with years ago.

Necromancy!

I am still waiting for THAT "other thread" to be resurrected!

it's the search and suggestion feature that brings them back. People that have not disscussed these things or have questions along the same lines resurrect them.

I'd personally rather have a thread resurrected, than the same topic continuously brought up over and over as if it was an original idea, (of which there are none, btw!).

Aikido taught me how to fight door knobs and push bars on doors that don't work!

I think it is all a matter of perspective what you think aikido teaches you to do. However, you don't really know what it teaches you until you use it in those circumstances. Sometimes the best lessons I learn from something don't surface for many years!

crikey - this thread is so old theres' not eve a post from me on it :-0

It depends on the dojo. If you get a good one, yes, Aikido will teach you to fight (and give aikijutsu people a run for their money). If not, then not.

I know this thread is ancient but I'm new here so bare with me

So, do you believe that aikido teaches you to fight?"

-Do you mean does it teach you how to fight? As in how to respond to an attack? Yes. As in better than another martial art? That depends on you. Whatever martial art you choose to train in, if you train long enough to gain muscle memory and good timing will teach you how to fight.

-"Did you start practicing aikido to learn how to fight?" No I started with wrestling in high school, moved on to karate in college, learned practical techniques in U.S. Coast Guard's Boarding Team Member school on how to take down armed and un-armed opponents and finally found a home in Aikido. I began aikido after I did some research on different martial arts. What attracted me to aikido was it's sophistication, it's fluidity and it's effectiveness… you can not ignore the process by which O'sensei came to create aikido. He did not just pull it out of thin air but from practical application from a lifetime of study. The techniques work when they present themselves. The secret is being able to do them without thought. Have you ever trained so hard or so thoroughly that you stop thinking about the moves and just flow into them? Another aspect or technique I learned from aikido that I found to be one of the most valuable is how to breathe! People who have never been in a fight or in a dangerous situation tend to not think about how the body reacts… adrenaline, fear, time seems to condense… it's hard to think, there's usually no time to think! Your stomach gets butterflies on speed… hot and cold flashes… all these things happen. One way to imagine it is to remember what it felt like when you came so close to that other car you were sure you were going to get hit! That feeling you got? That sudden flip and your holding your breath, depriving your body of oxygen. So one of the greatest things aikido teaches me is how to breathe and THAT helped me in every confrontation I had.

-"Do you think aikido helps you to fight?"
-By it's self? No. but it sure does help.

It's funny, the founders of many martial arts started training because they were frail or sickly as a child and wanted to learn how to defend themselves.

Gim23

[Edited by Jim23 on February 23, 2001 at 02:23pm][/quote]

I haven't read the life of every martial arts master who ever lived, but I can say with confidence that Gichin Funakoshi, Chotoku Kyan and, yes, O Sensei were all encouraged to take martial arts by their family not so that they could defend themseves (although that this was considered a welcome bonus), but to strenghten their frail bodies. Remember that at this time, practicing a physical activity for fun was not a widspread as it is today, but the fact that martial arts masters were healthier and lived longer than most of their contemporaries did not go unoticed.