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Old 06-10-2004, 04:25 PM   #51
Michael Neal
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Striking is bad strategy unless you are sure you can knock them out in 1 hit. Even if you hit them they are still going to get your legs and take you down. Just watch the original Ultimate Fighting Championships for proof of this point.

In Judo, double leg takedowns very rarely work for a few reasons 1) we are used to sprawling
2) uchi mata is a great counter throw 3) If you can get a grip on him it is near impossible for him to pull it off.

So if you know somoene is likely to do a double leg takedown then DO NOT keep the typical Aikido distance, close in and get grips on him and sprawl and/or counter. You must be aggressive in this situation and not stand back and wait for him to attack. If you catch him and he is in the typical bent over wrestling stance try some sacrifice thows or an uchimata if you know it.
You can also push his face into the mat and then go for a rear choke of your choice.

This is must be practiced often with full out resistance to get it down though.
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Old 06-12-2004, 09:21 PM   #52
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Jon Truho wrote:
I have been wondering, and trying to extrapolate from my limited knowledge of AIKIDO a response to a double-leg-takedown. Any suggestions?
depending at what point in 'mai' you perceive the shot and what your tendancy is predominantly,all techniques of aikido work well ,and never rule out the sprawl ,for if you continue from sprawl into waza ,the sprawl will serve as a blending technique as well as tratitional 'tai no henka'.also note that there are a number of techniques from 'kito ryu' ,a derivative
of judo and aikido(as well as many others),
'mizu guruma',would be best described as double timed stepping sprawl,and as the name 'water wheel' implies ,under the force of gravity you make your move.stepping in the gradient of gravity.a very controlled sprawl.in fact the name 'kito' means to rise and ''fall''.
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Old 06-12-2004, 09:37 PM   #53
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Then there's the option of using the sprawl as an effective and effecient means of getting into hanza handachi and applying the technique from there - as in the case of ude hineri.

Just my 2 cents.
LC

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Old 06-13-2004, 12:57 AM   #54
Kyri Honigh
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Hi,
One of my sempai is also pretty much advanced in bjj, his double leg take down is very annoying if u lack the timing and skills to either totally avoid it or a way to deal with it. I asked myself is it possible to take a position where you are still standing while the attacker fails to perform a takedown? I think I've seen Silva in the ufc do something like it...he's big and one of the most effective strikers against grapplers. So basically what I wanna know is if there's a way to widen ur legs and lower the body, maintaning balance...this could even allow you to snap his neck because his double leg takedown has failed.
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Old 06-13-2004, 12:59 AM   #55
Kyri Honigh
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Hahah or maybe I have just too much imagination....Sigh
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Old 06-13-2004, 05:34 AM   #56
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
3) If you can get a grip on him it is near impossible for him to pull it off.
As far as I know it and have experienced it - this is the main reason.

I would NEVER go voluntarily into hanmi-handachi waza as this is a really inferior position. Plus (It may be my limited Aikido experience but) - to be honest. I've never seen anyone under 2. dan perform hanmi-handachi waza really smooth and with a touch of realism even in Aikido's more or less cooperative and predictable training methods.

From the last post... Pure BJJ guys usually (so your sempai may well be an exeption but USUALLY) do not have a very good double-leg takedown on a reason mentioned above plus the oportunity to pull guard.
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Old 06-13-2004, 05:39 AM   #57
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Kyri Honigh wrote:
I think I've seen Silva in the ufc do something like it...he's big and one of the most effective strikers against grapplers. So basically what I wanna know is if there's a way to widen ur legs and lower the body, maintaning balance...
Aha... Kyri what else I wanted to say... Silva is also a bjj blackbelt and has exellent takedown defence and knowledge. Plus he has apes in his family line couple of generations nearer than most of us do (no disrespect, I've heard his a really nice and intelligent guy outside the ring and mma context though that's just what I've heard).

If you just lower your centre and widen your legs then you will be either:
a) took down with a double leg when the opponent has some mass and can drive you well (because you didn't throw your hips away as in sprawl
b) he will transfer to a single leg takedown (as your legs are wide apart it's easy) and you will be taken down with one of the finishes there are from single leg.
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Old 06-13-2004, 08:32 AM   #58
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
I would NEVER go voluntarily into hanmi-handachi waza as this is a really inferior position. Plus (It may be my limited Aikido experience but) - to be honest. I've never seen anyone under 2. dan perform hanmi-handachi waza really smooth and with a touch of realism even in Aikido's more or less cooperative and predictable training methods.
Neither would I, but I've found that it is a very good way to add a lot of weight power to a standing technique by dropping one's weight. From my experience I've never had to resort to hanza handachi to deal with a double leg, since my ude hineri always does the job. The hanza handachi is the fallback in the event I'm off on timing. There is no loss of balance in this transition on the part of Tori, so the same degree of control is maintained.

Personally I don't see the big problem for certain skilled Aikidoka to deal with a DLT. Just my personal opinion.

LC

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Old 06-13-2004, 09:05 AM   #59
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Neither would I, but I've found that it is a very good way to add a lot of weight power to a standing technique by dropping one's weight. From my experience I've never had to resort to hanza handachi to deal with a double leg, since my ude hineri always does the job.
How good have been the takedowns? Practiced in a fighting situation with a uncooperative unpredictable partner or just standing there waiting for him to shoot.

Anyhow... I am curious on the ude-hineri. Could you find some pictures (the technique against a double-leg or if not possible then something else) as the terminology varies between schools and styles and I've not yet come upon a technique called ude-hineri. Though I'm pretty much certain it is something I know under another name.
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Old 06-13-2004, 02:20 PM   #60
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
How good have been the takedowns? Practiced in a fighting situation with a uncooperative unpredictable partner or just standing there waiting for him to shoot.
This has been in friendly sparring matches with jujutsu pals to get a feel for the strengths and weaknesses of the different styles. So it can be said that the situation was uncooperative and unpredictable, but not a "fight" as I define it. If I were fighting then I would not be using Aikido.

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
Anyhow... I am curious on the ude-hineri. Could you find some pictures (the technique against a double-leg or if not possible then something else) as the terminology varies between schools and styles and I've not yet come upon a technique called ude-hineri. Though I'm pretty much certain it is something I know under another name.
Ude Hineri is known as kaiten nage in its form as a throw in most schools. As it manipulates the elbow and shoulder it's called ude hineri in Shodokan and works as a lock, pin, takedown or throw. Some form of it is existent in most grappling systems. Against a thrust a basic version of it can be found here . The one shown is a basic kata version, the one I use tends to enter below the arm instead of above. The ending pin is similar to this

Of course this is only one technique that works. Depending on how the attacker reacts to being engaged and the size/skill of the Aikidoka a different technique may be more viable.

Just my 2 cents. I don't think any technique is foolproof or uncounterable. It just depends on the quality of execution and the confidence of the practitioner in his technique.

LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 06-13-2004 at 02:22 PM.

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Old 06-13-2004, 02:54 PM   #61
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Hey thanks, Larry, that's pretty cool, I never thought of that, I'm definitely going to have to try that next time I'm grappling

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Old 06-13-2004, 03:30 PM   #62
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
This has been in friendly sparring matches with jujutsu pals to get a feel for the strengths and weaknesses of the different styles. So it can be said that the situation was uncooperative and unpredictable, but not a "fight" as I define it. If I were fighting then I would not be using Aikido.
Very good then...
What I understand as fighting is that not only he but you as well are trying to "win". So the aggression is not only one-sided.

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Ude Hineri...
Yep I know it as kaite-nage some versions ude-garami but who cares There's one version that is called kaitenamagate or something

But I think it's really hard to get the arm when someone is going for the tackle...
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Old 06-13-2004, 03:50 PM   #63
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
Very good then...
What I understand as fighting is that not only he but you as well are trying to "win". So the aggression is not only one-sided.
Well that is... interesting. In my understanding one does not have to be aggressive to win, and being aggressive does not necessarily have anything to do with fighting. To me "fight" connotes "struggle". Aggression or lack of it is more a part of one's strategy, not an indicator of what a fight is or is not imho. Also, one can be aggressive without showing it outwardly. I have been in physically aggressive engagements on and off the mat, and so far I have not "fought" yet imo. I merely dealt with the attack and found an end to the conflict. Imho, if one allows himself to get into the "fight" mode, then its time to switch tactics as the Aikido initiative is already lost.

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
But I think it's really hard to get the arm when someone is going for the tackle...
Like I said in an earlier post, it all comes down to who is doing the technique and what he/she has going for him. There are people that cannot make this technique work in this situation simply because of physics, but they may be able to get others off. Most dojos I know of don't train to be effective against this sort of attack, as such, application can be difficult, but it does not make it impossible. This is the same technique alluded to earlier by Mark Barlow of Akayama Ryu Jujutsu, a system which I also study.

The way I do it I don't need to "get" the arm, its already coming at me with the body, I just manouver it where I want to before the DLT has properly set. Different dojos teach this technique differently and that can have a lot to do with what works against what attack and what doesn't.

Just my thoughts.
LC

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Old 06-13-2004, 04:04 PM   #64
Greg Jennings
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

In the version that I've seen Barlow Sensei demonstrate, one doesn't grasp the arm. One "counter shoots" and meets the shooter at an angle.

So, your initial position is slightly to one side with the shoulder on that side bracing into the shooter.

You put your arm on that side under the shooter's arm and up his back. Your other hand, the far hand, controls the shooter's head.

You then turn into the shooter with your nearside hip and lift on the arm under his arm/up his back and push his head down at the same time.

I usually end up in a side mount or north/south.

FWIW,

Greg Jennings
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Old 06-13-2004, 04:16 PM   #65
L. Camejo
 
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Exactly Greg. Much of Akayama Ryu's Aiki waza comes from Tomiki Aikido, so the approach is very very similar. In fact, entering at an angle is very important to not get caught in the attacker's shoot imo.

What you said above is almost exactly how I do it. At the point where you go into the side mount I spiral em face first into the floor and lock up the shoulder.

Akayama Ryu also has a choke hold that they can apply from that position as well. Kinda hard to describe though.

It's all good.
LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 06-13-2004 at 04:21 PM.

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Old 06-13-2004, 08:33 PM   #66
Neil Mick
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Jon Truho wrote:
I have been wondering, and trying to extrapolate from my limited knowledge of AIKIDO a response to a double-leg-takedown. Any suggestions?
I am not really sure what you mean by "double leg takedown," except from a Capoeira perspective (which, I studied for about 41/2 years, and as a "side-Art" to Aikido)>

In Capoeira, you have a type of scissors take-down (called "Tesoura," "T" sounds like a "J") where the attacker levers the opponent over onto this back, front leg in the belly, back-leg behind the knee's. "Uke" spins his hips toward "nage," to get the torque needed.

Done fast enough, it is very effective, and flattens the target on his back. The trouble is, "uke" is tangled in his target's legs. But, this fall often stuns the opponent, for a moment.

My Aiki-response to Tesoura, would be to turn around and run. My martial response, would be the same thing a Capoeirista does--either deepen the stance, get out of the way (usually too late, with a competent Capoeirista), or get down on the floor (Capoeira often has stylized groundfighting, but it's unlikely to be used, in a "real" fight).

My 2 cents.
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Old 06-14-2004, 05:50 AM   #67
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
In Capoeira, you have a type of scissors take-down (called "Tesoura," "T" sounds like a "J") where the attacker levers the opponent over onto this back, front leg in the belly, back-leg behind the knee's. "Uke" spins his hips toward "nage," to get the torque needed.
That's not a double leg takedown that was meant here. Sounds more like scissor-sweep from bjj which also has several contras.

What I like about capoeira is that none of the practioners I've met claims it to be self-defence effective (exept for the increased coordination and flexibility). But that's another subject.
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Old 06-14-2004, 07:36 AM   #68
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
What I like about capoeira is that none of the practioners I've met claims it to be self-defence effective (exept for the increased coordination and flexibility). But that's another subject.
It is another subject, but like Aikido it depends on how one trains Capoeira and their objectives.

As far as effectiveness in self defence goes, Capoeira has been used as a weapon in successful slave revolts in Brazil during the 1600's, as we can see here so I don't think it's totally useless as self defence.

Just a few thoughts.
LC

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Old 06-14-2004, 08:13 AM   #69
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
typical bent over wrestling stance
Uhh, hmm, you mean during the shoot? Most good coaches don't teach a bent over posture while shooting in wrestling...not even in high school. How experienced are the wrestlers you've known?

Typically I've seen people bend their knees to lower their hips, and shoot in with the back pretty straight...after an effective sprawl their back won't be vertical anymore, but they don't start out that way. What you describe sounds more like at 'tackle'...

If there is no great size differential, the tackle is relatively easy to defend against, as uke's posture is already broken once contact is made. A proper shot is much harder to defend against.

Ron

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Old 06-14-2004, 08:19 AM   #70
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
also note that there are a number of techniques from 'kito ryu' ,a derivative
of judo and aikido(as well as many others),
Quote:
Copied or adapted from others: a highly derivative prose style.
n.
Something derived.
Linguistics. A word formed from another by derivation, such as electricity from electric
I'm confused...are you saying kito ryu is derived from aikido and judo (which would be impossible as neither judo nor aikido existed before kito ryu), or are you saying aikido and judo are derived from kito ryu? If the later, what evidence do you have that aikido has any relation to any koryu other than Daito ryu? I haven't seen much of anything at all to suggest a relationship to kito ryu.

Just currious,
Ron

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Old 06-14-2004, 11:56 AM   #71
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Ron, good point on the bent back difference between tackle and shoot. My friend that grapples showed me that. He keeps his back straight and gets low with his hips and knees (almost like shikko (sp?)). He also tries to not let his head get to one side or the other to help prevent the guillotine.

Also I've read that O'Sensei actually studied Yagyu Ryu as well as Daito Ryu and also judo, along with the various other weapon arts. I've never seen Yagyu Ryu so I don't know if we share techniques or not.

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Old 06-14-2004, 11:59 AM   #72
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

http://www.desruisseaux.com/aikido/...ido-osensei.htm

It was during this first stay in Tokyo that Morihei began his study of the martial arts, learning traditional Tenshin Shinyo jujutsu from the Kito school (Tokusaburo Tojawa Sensei) and Shinkage kenjustsu. Morihei was attached to the 37th regiment of the fourth Division in Osaka, where he was nicknamed "the King of Soldiers" because of his skills with the bayonet, the juken-jutsu. He was sent to the front during the Russo-Japanese War in 1904, and returned having been promoted sergeant for outstanding bravery in the field. He also studied the Goto-ha Yagyu-ryu jujutsu style (Masakatsu Nakai Sensei) in Sakai during this period. He was discharged from the army in 1907 and returned to Tanabe where he worked on the family farm. During this period, Morihei studied the Kodokan style of judo (Kiyoichi Takagi Sensei) in a barn he converted into a dojo. During this period, Morihei made the acquaintance of Sokaku Takeda Sensei, a well known master of Daito-ryu jujutsu. This was to be the first of two significant encounters in the life of O-Sensei that would change it forever. He became his student and gained a certificate in Daito-ryu jujutsu after an intensive training. The techniques he learned then with Sokaku Takeda were to be an inspiration for the foundation of Aikido. In 1921, Kisshomaru Ueshiba was born. Morihei practice of the martial arts gradually began to take on a spiritual character. This led him little by little to break away from the conventions of Yagyu-ryu and Daito-ryu jujutsu, and to develop his own original approach. In 1922 this approach was formally named aiki-bujutsu.

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Old 06-14-2004, 01:36 PM   #73
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Hi Chad,

You need to spend some time digging into the history above. There are inaccuracies and some important details are left out.

Dig around in Stanley Pranin's articles and books. Differentiate between what Stanley says and when he quotes someone else.

Best regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 06-14-2004, 01:45 PM   #74
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

In addition, just look at the techniques...Daito ryu, and daito ryu only as far as I can see for the unarmed techniques. When Ueshiba was first teaching at the kobukan, what licenses was he handing out? Daito ryu...nothing else.

Ron

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Old 06-14-2004, 09:38 PM   #75
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Re: AIKIDO versus Double-leg-takedown?

Quote:
Uhh, hmm, you mean during the shoot? Most good coaches don't teach a bent over posture while shooting in wrestling...not even in high school. How experienced are the wrestlers you've known?
No I said if you catch him in a failed atempt you will have them a bit forward and off balance for uchimata or you can push their face into the mat and go for a choke. In general though, wrestlers do tend to have a bent over posture, especially after a failed attempt at a takedown, which is great for sacrifice throws or any good forward throw for that matter.

Remember guys that Aikido does use some of the same sacrifice throws used in Judo, these work wonders on grapplers who push forward into you. It is much easier to doa sprawl, forward throw, or sacrifice than try something like kaitenage.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 06-14-2004 at 09:43 PM.
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