No touch throw - again? OMG!!!

Thanks Gernot that was very informative. Still I guess we are a long way off from his level, still we can dream to be there!!
Actually I don't think I have ever heard his name being mentioned, maybe it is because I am not listening properly. But I think he is more famous for his calligraphy because didn't he teach Ueshiba Sensei?
Wayne

He taught Ueshiba Sensei caligraphy, and Ueshiba Sensei taught him aikido. I'm not much for the no touch stuff, but as Gernot said, in context, I'm sure it has it's purpose. My problem with clips like that is that context is pretty much non existent. I felt a little uncomfortable when I saw this type of thing in Iowa, but I was certainly impressed with the aikido over all, and Abe Sensei is a Mensch. The teaching there did add to my physical practice.

Best,
Ron

Behavioral conditioning. Yuck.

Understood...

B,
R

I wouldn't get too worried or caught up with the no-touch throws in that clip. I think there are some gems in that video clip (although not in a lot of detail), particularly in the beginning about fuku-shiki kokyu (abdominal breathing) and gyaku-shiki kokyu (reverse breathing) which help with ki development as have been discussed in other recent threads here. Also some emphasis on ki power transfer and kokyu. That is the more interesting part to me.

Gernot Hassenpflug wrote: Abe sensei doesn't try to throw people, he tries to get them to stand, grip and stop breath in a certain manner. When he demonstrates with ukes, he is teaching them this, and they are falling in line with that entering force, not because the force is actually strong enough (at that point) to throw them bodily. I'll tell you though that I asked him about all this extension thing a number of times, and once he said there's no need to be violent, it's just the leading...

After he does the no-touch throws and the comedian expresses his doubt about not touching them, Abe-sensei says something to the effect that he is just leading them. He never says anything about throwing them with invisible ki power, but he does also say that stopping fuku-shiki kokyu is important. I'll have to think about that a little more. I think that is what Gernot is referring to about stopping breath in a certain manner as quoted above.

I think if you compare the no-touch throws of Abe-sensei and Watanabe-sensei there are also some interesting differences as well. Personally I've never received or felt a no-touch throw from either Abe-sensei or Watanabe-sensei so I can't say with any authority about their effectiveness, but I think there is some underlying purpose to demonstating and/or doing it beyond just showing-off. For those who are concerned about charlatanism, Abe-sensei is also really into working with strong grips and developing effective aiki as Gernot alluded to so I think any no-touch stuff we see is only a minor part of their practice.

I once attended the Saturday afternoon class at Aikikai Hombu. I had seen a video of Watanabe Sensei's demo at the 1995 All Japan Aikido Embukai, and I was intrigued, to say the least.
As stated previously by Professor Goldsbury, Watanabe Sensei's class was good, solid kihon waza, with no evidence of no-touch throws at all. Nothing but effective Aikido. It was also my first experience with having one training partner from beginning to end of the session.
An interesting postscript to this was a few days later, when I had returned to Manila, I attended a class taught by Fujimaki Sensei, who is also an instructor (albeit young) at Aikikai Hombu, who was in Manila for a short visit. When I mentioned that I had attended Watanabe Sensei's class, he said, "Ah, Saturday class. Did you see any...?" and he made some mysterious movements with his hands.
"No, Sensei," I replied, smiling. "All kihon waza".

If this demonstration is to show how flexible are Watanabe's ukes and how they fall by themselves, then Watanabe seinsei is not even necessary in the tatami. And it has nothing to do with martial arts.
If the demonstation is to show how Watanabe sensei can willingly throw a person without touching him/her, then this is just crap.
And it's even obvious around 00:01:07, when one of his ukes is kneeling and with both hands on the mat, Watanabe sensei makes a movement with the right arm that clearly is suppossed to make his uke flip over (again), but the uke doesn't flip, instead he begins to leave the tatami!!!.
Then watanabe sensei makes the same arm movement, but this time is to call in the other uke, who immediately enters.
So as Watanabe's uke didn't "respond" to his "no-touch throw", sensei then pretends he was just calling the other uke in. What a buch of crap, and a shame to Aikido.
And unfortunately aikido has this kind of 8dan

I suppose that some people would call what I've done a couple times a "no-touch throw". I call it an atemi, followed by an over-reaction by uke. When I've seen a "no-touch throw", it was usually the result ot an uke trying to bob and weave while entering quickly with an attack. I suppose that the faster they come at you, the better the chances get of a "no-touch throw" happening.

Spectators who can't tell what happened, or an experienced aikidoka who can see that nage is responsible for causing the fall to take place, might call it a throw.

From what I can tell it's really just a flinch and a fall, but it looks pretty neat.

Call them what you want, but they exist. I've experienced them as uke and nage, with no pre-planning or coreography. It's in trying to repeat the occurence in front of an audience that things start to get silly.

Don't believe in the platypus, though... not until you've actually seen one.

Bülent Koçak wrote: I have respect to those people, and because of not have been thrown by "no touch throw", I can not say if it is fake or not. There is a clip by O'Sensei's no touch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ if Watanabe Sensei's no touch technique is fake, then I think he must have learnt it from O'Sensei PS: at the clip of Watanabe Sensei, below at the comments, a guy wrote: "Great Video! I met Watanabe Sensei last year in munich and I had the possibility to attack him with a Suwariwaza Shomenuchi. He threw me over the mat without even touching me- i think he didn't even move. I never heard about his amazing technique before, so I was very surprised." and also it is written that more info can be found at: www.kenbukai.de and interview at http://www.aiki-zen.de

Yeah guys, this is what we call Bullshido

This was an interesting clip to watch, as was many of the comments everyone has submitted. for most of the clip I saw Watanabe Sensei using a lot of excellent leading and feather touch. Leading involves not just uke's body, but uke's mind. It appears Watanabe knows well how to invite uke to move freely in both mind and body. I Agree w/ several user's comments that aikido is cooperative and really the question of "fake" aikido might be a moot point. What I saw was total blending and openness between a nage and ukes and the exemplification of the common center between them. So what of the apparent no-touch throws? How can any of us really know unless we were there as uke? It could have been a bit of fun between them, a chance for uke to show some amazing athletic ability, a demonstration of "string technique" (uke reacting purposefully as if having been touched), or a powerful projection of Ki, which uke felt tangiblely. I like the idea of staying open to all the possibilities and simply enjoying the beauty of their demonstration. Passing judgement as to whether it was fake or not takes away from not only their aikido, but mine as well."Real" aikido is found in each moment of practice between uke and nage. Everything else is just speculation.
Enjoying the journey,
Kim

Passing judgement as to whether it was fake or not takes away from not only their aikido, but mine as well

Totally disagree, your aikido, their aikido, anyone elses aikido does not affect mine at all unless they're teaching me. Even posting strange videos of esoteric moves with no obvious practical application or validity doesn't phase me.

I always find the idea that nasty words on the internet can cause baby-aikido to cry to be one of the most ludicrous reasons to decry criticism. Robust discussion and healthy cynicism is a much better way to go than meek acceptance and respectful compliance - if a so-called martial art can't even take harsh words, what bloody use is it...

{and just in case you think I'm just an anti-aikido bully, I'd like to point out that I am in fact a card carrying fluffy aiki-bunny from a Ki society}

Ian Hurst wrote: Totally disagree, your aikido, their aikido, anyone elses aikido does not affect mine at all unless they're teaching me. Even posting strange videos of esoteric moves with no obvious practical application or validity doesn't phase me. I always find the idea that nasty words on the internet can cause baby-aikido to cry to be one of the most ludicrous reasons to decry criticism. Robust discussion and healthy cynicism is a much better way to go than meek acceptance and respectful compliance - if a so-called martial art can't even take harsh words, what bloody use is it... {and just in case you think I'm just an anti-aikido bully, I'd like to point out that I am in fact a card carrying fluffy aiki-bunny from a Ki society}

Hmm perhaps I might clarify my statement. When I say it affects my aikdo what I mean is when I begin to judge someone else's aikido then I close the door to possibility and it then does affect my aikido because now my heart and mind has closed, then I am less teachable. I am all for robust discussion. Criticism is what it is and it's up to each person to take it in or not and then what to do w/ it. Like everyone else here I recognize that anything I write is my opinion and I would not exoect it to be taken as anything more. I don't know if you are a bully, but likely not, but now we all know you are a fluffy aiki-bunny So great that you put out your disagreement and criticisms. As will I when it suits me. I'm hardly a meek aiki-baby, but do have a bit of fluffy bunny in me as well (that might be a great icon for messages!). Thanks for your robust discussion and opinion.-Kim

horrible 'demonstration'... this was trashed several months ago on another forum and is one reason aikido is not taken seriously... i believe in and have done 'no touch' throws as uke and nage, but this is too 'faked' or scripted... it is a poor representation of aikido... i have seen high ranking elderly aikidoka who demonstrated 'elegantly' but did not have a trained uke who flipped for nothing or for clapping!!!... seems to me indicative of a kind of decadence of the aikido community that such 'demonstrations' are fairly common and never 'challenged'... respect for senior aikidoka, but not without healthy scepticism of something like this... from about the 50 sec mark until 1 min... it is clearly uke (second one) being too cooperative... while the blending and leading are notewothy there is virtually no seigyo or control of uke demonstrated... TRUTH is more important than IMAGE... this seems to only demonstrate an image that has very little truth to it... just my opinion...

It was a demonstration.

You can see that uke is coming in WANTING to take ukemi.

Laughter follows (if you turn up the volume).

Take it at face value and move on.

Edwin Neal wrote: TRUTH is more important than IMAGE

Crap, that doesn't even hold water in the West, let alone in the East. If you think about it, you'll find there is no answer that you or I can come up with that can challenge reality, namely, that which exists (like this video).

Boy is that ever neat.