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Old 11-23-2003, 09:02 AM   #26
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 788
Justin McCarthy (justinm) wrote:
If my uke had a magic marker? I'd look like a Jackson Pollock painting. That's why I keep training. How about you - would it only count as aikido if they held it in their right hand and made sure you knew that?
Your question has no relation to anything I have stated or implied. Follow the logic. It was proposed that uke is assumed to have a weapon in the off hand during "every single attack". I have no trouble with training the weapon in the off hand scenario some of the time, and rotating it in with all the other attack variations. Or, if you really want to train your perceptiveness, why not set up a scenario where uke has a tanto tucked away, and may or may not use it in the off hand, at his/her discretion? Nothing wrong with any of this.

I was arguing against the assumtion that uke has a knife in the free hand all of the time, and pointing out many of the absurd implications/consequences of doing so. If you were/are arguing in favor of using the scenario some of the time, I don't know who you are arguing against. I agree with others who advocated being broadly aware of what is going on with uke, including keeping an eye out for weapons. However, if they don't have a weapon in the off hand, treating it like a hot potato is to place arbitrary restrictions on yourself.
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Old 11-25-2003, 01:34 PM   #27
Ray Kissane
Dojo: Nihon Goshin Aikido
Location: Middletown NY
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 24
We use the roll up version of kotegaishi when Uke pulls back on their hand. Naga can follow the direction of the pull and be able to throw/sit uke down. I do not like this version as well because I feel more exposed to a strike from Uke.

I have seen Taijustu people use this version. They claim it wil break the wrist. I do not know, never want to try and break anybody.

Larry Camejo Wrote:

"I train my students to let them kick and apply yonko on their ankle, then turn em over."

Could you explain this yonko on the ankle? This sounds very interesting.

Ray Kissane
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Old 12-01-2003, 09:05 AM   #28
Dojo: ABIF - Tagbilaran City, Bohol
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 3

Jim Baker (jimbaker) wrote:
The way I teach it is that in every single attack, the guy has a knife in his other hand. If you've been touched by his other hand, you've been stabbed. It does focus one's attention!

Jim Baker
Though I don't disagree with being cautios. In relating the execution of that technique in real-life situation but if that teaching method itself does limits an Aikidoka to create his own, well I think that's a static approach. In real-life scenarios, a uke having a bladed weapon at his other hand is an isolated case. But not impossible. The way I do it, so that the uke will never had a chance to kick me in the face or use his other hand as a reinforcement, I'd always pin or execute a lock if he shows some resitance.In a position where his face facing the ground, as quicky as possible. This is usually I do for training purposes. But if I'll be confronted with a uke in the real-life scenario. Presuming, that I am not anticipating that he has another bladed on his other hand. I would probably apply tenkan first, in that case his mind will be preoccupied on thingking the welfare of his elbow, rather than thrusting his knife using his other hand, then after which it's my turn now.
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Old 12-01-2003, 01:41 PM   #29
L. Camejo
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Ray Kissane wrote:
Larry Camejo Wrote:

"I train my students to let them kick and apply yonko on their ankle, then turn em over."

Could you explain this yonko on the ankle? This sounds very interesting.
There is a ground lock from kotegaeshi that involves Uke being on his back when pinned. It comes directly out of the kotegaeshi employed in the Randori no Kata of Shodokan and can be seen here - http://www.ttac.0catch.com/tekubi.htm

When Uke is on his back it is relatively easy to try a front/soccer style kick towards Tori's head/chest/waist as he tries to turn Uke over or lock his wrist.

Because Tori is near Uke's head after completing the kotegaeshi, the kick if it does come, tends to be nicely extended, allowing Tori to easily time and trap the ankle to his hip using tegatana. This is of course only possible if Tori is maintaining zanshin and keeps the entire body of Uke in view/awareness. At this point Tori releases the other hand that is still holding the kotegaeshi and uses it to back up the sword like grip on Uke's ankle. From here the application of yonkyo (tekubi osae) is identical to when applied on the nerves on the inner arm, in this case however the pressure is on the nerves of the inner ankle.

As soon as this is effective, Tori can either pin by stepping on the inner ankle of Uke's other foot with the edge of his own foot (pressing the same point as the yonkyo on the leg against the floor) or maintain the yonkyo hold the leg and turn Uke over and place him on his stomach by straddling Uke's back and facing his legs (similar to a figure 4) and apply a leg lock.

The figure 4 type leg lock option came from my Jujutsu knowledge, but application of Yonkyo to the ankle has become a norm for me from Aikido alone. In our system, leg locks are applied as part of the Shodan grading syllabus and "other hand" knife attacks form a major part of the kyu grade syllabus. Maybe there is some historical or other reason why these techniques and attacks were placed into the grading system. Whatever the reason though, I guess Tomiki deemed them important enough to make them a major part of the basic syllabus.

Apologies for the length of this post.


Last edited by L. Camejo : 12-01-2003 at 01:46 PM.

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